Warlock "Shift" mechanic

azrael4271 · July 2014

How does everyone feel about the Warlock "Shift" ability? I personally don't feel like the sprint fits with a warlock at all. I think a shadow step would fit better. Something similar to the CW. After reading the Neverwinter books by R.A. Salvatore I like the way Effron melts into the shadows and appears a few paces away. After that I felt it would be perfect mechanic wise for this game. What are everyone else thoughts?

harnel · July 2014

Well, since you seem to like the forgotten realms books, I recommend the Brimstone Angels series by Erin Evans. It's an excellent read and is delightfully on topic with our current subject matter.

Farideh, the main character of the series (arguably one of two) is a tiefling warlock. one of the most common uses of her power in the series, however, is to teleport about. It's safer and more practical in a lot of circumstances than moving normally. Sounds rather similar, doesn't it?

Frankly, yes. The Scourge warlock shift mechanic needs to be changed. I'd far prefer a short range teleport, similar to the control wizard. A puff of smoke maybe, passing through a hellfire portal, or even slipping through a brief connection to the shadowfell. I don't care. But I'm distinctly of the opinion that the sprint simply is not good enough in any way.

charononus · July 2014

http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock#Shadow_Walk

It's pretty close to what's in the 4e. The warlock makes a short dash of movement and gains concealment. Since concealment doesn't really work they give a damage reduction and cc immune while dashing. This keep the ability close to the core mechanics of the handbooks and anytime they can do that it's a good thing, else why are we calling this a dungeons and dragons game.

harnel · July 2014

I'll admit that, yes, warlocks in 4e have a shadow walk ability. the trick is that to my knowledge, Wizards don't also have a short range teleport outside of utility spells, putting in precedent for such a thing. On top of that, the sprint just isn't working, from a gameplay standpoint; you can't escape big hits unless there's chargeup, and gods help you if the attack tracks your movements; a CW ice knife is a great example. A 30% damage reduction and CC immunity just doesn't matter when they smash you for 30k damage. on top of that, the sprint mechanic destroys your stamina extremely fast. That's fine for a class like the GWF, which has the ability to amp its inherent HP to the nines and loads of armor, but not for a squishy caster class like the warlock, who mitigates damage by healing it through lifesteal (and thus will be utterly crushed by burst damage). Can't negate an attack by dodging? You're essentially hooped, as that's still a solid 20k damage if not more, which will leave you easy pickings for the likes of basically any encounter power a wizard can throw your way.

While I enjoyed the games I've played of 4e, sticking too closely to the source material is a recipe for disaster in any media based on a subject that isn't inherently related, especially given how far Neverwinter has already broken from that particular mold.

l3g10nna1re · July 2014

charononus wrote: »

http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock#Shadow_Walk

It's pretty close to what's in the 4e. The warlock makes a short dash of movement and gains concealment. Since concealment doesn't really work they give a damage reduction and cc immune while dashing. This keep the ability close to the core mechanics of the handbooks and anytime they can do that it's a good thing, else why are we calling this a dungeons and dragons game.

As much as this is correct it seems more like a "copy" of GWF sprint function they recently added than a interpretation / of the lore.

Sprinting seems like a Melle Choice and Leather armour? Never seen any Magic class in the MMOS I Played wear leather barring the druid from wow and this was only because of its different functions,

demonickk23 · July 2014

actually the shift mechanic is the only thing i didn't really like with this class. I don't like how it works and doesn't really help me dodge anything, but I''m really new to the class and am not sure if that's what it's intended for.

gabryel · July 2014

It's a horrible and unreliable defensive ability, even on the GWF. It is only becuase GWFs were never intended to "dodge" attacks, that no one has complained too much about it. It's not even an issue of it being an ability for melee classes, as melee classes that are reliant on dodging and evasion have shift abilities comprable to teleport.

I can't say how well the devs thought it out when they decided to give the class a "sprint" shift ability; but if it was intended, does it mean the Warlock is meant to be a tanking caster?

mutantdemocracy · July 2014

azrael4271 wrote: »

After reading the Neverwinter books by R.A. Salvatore I like the way Effron melts into the shadows and appears a few paces away. After that I felt it would be perfect mechanic wise for this game.

Seems solid, to me.

Shadow Walk - "The Scourge Warlock melts into the shadows for a short time, gaining CC immunity while stealthed"

Stealth lasts 2 or 3 seconds and consumes 2/5 of the stamina bar. A cooldown of .5 to 1 second would probably need to be added for a 3 second stealth, to prevent chain stealthing becoming problematic. The stamina cost would be to allow people to get off 3 Shadow Walks only if they space out shifts so their stamina can regen 1/5.

str8slayer · July 2014

I share the sentiment that the sprint shift ability is weak for both GWF and (slightly better) for warlock. GWF's only get away with it because they have unstoppable and can raise their DR high enough to mitigate burst damage. If GWF's sprint had the DR instead they would be dead meat in PVP because you can't get enough stamina regen to be reliable. For a caster class this gets even worse as they have no way to take damage (or dodge) and retaliate so if this sprint ability goes live, Warlock is basically on the bottom for PVP already.

theshadowbreaker · July 2014

Biggest problem isn't PvP but PvE. It's impossible to get away from danger area with sprint (at least not with average server latency). The best thing you can do is take a little step right before attack hits you. This saves stamina and can be done couple of times but it's completely useless versus high damage attacks, 30% dmg reduction is laughable when you must take heavy hits all the time. With this shift mechanic you will always get hit, if you want to avoid something you will just do it one time and stamina bar is gone (it's regeneration rate is another issue). We don't see now how sprint really sucks for warlock only because queue is closed on preview.

Class is really fun to play, I like almost all the powers, some passives need to be reworked but overall Warlock is really nice class except this sprint nightmare. I can live with no CC and CC immunity powers (worst class in this field so far) but this shift mechanic is just broken for such a squishy character (really low deflect, dmg resistance and without those large hp pool is still useless even with high life steal which is much harder to utilize than regeneration).

harnel · July 2014

I've been testing out the warlock sprint mechanic by using the Dracolich Kalyuxa mentioned In this thread and I've found it to be the single most unreliable, lag inducing power in the game. I can't tell you how many times the sprint either didn't work or caused such problems that I was hit by the dracolich's attacks anyways. The thing is, that's not a concern on a wizard, because the dodge leaves a margin for error to account for server latency. A ranger that's lacking in latency would be able to dodge better, which would probably allow them to deal better damage. But the warlock? Either I'm so low on stamina from attempting to get away from the attacks that I can't dodge another one (because the sprint burns all the stamina so **** quickly) or lag prevents me from escaping, even when I have theoretically avoided the blow. And, on the rare occasion where everything works, I don't avoid the attack; it still takes off an absolutely huge chunk of my health because the 30% is only just barely enough to save my life, after which I couldn't even use warlock's bargain to regenerate because doing so would kill myself. It's maddening.

iambecks1 · July 2014

It wouldn't be so bad but the Warlocks gfx for it's shift and the description don't match either -

Panderus Warlock shift description wrote: »

Shadow Sprint: Slip into the shadows, allowing you to move faster and granting you 30% additional damage resistance while shifted.

My Warlock doesn't slip into the shadows and sprint off ,it sets on fire and can be seen from the other side of the map while running like a loon xD

Warlock really could use a CW type shift , the sprint mechanic is good for a melee fighter with good survivability but on a ranged caster it makes no sense because they aren't going to be running in and out of close combat.

alkemist80 · July 2014

I am not liking the warlock shift ability. It is extremely unreliable and as of right now, it's much more difficult to avoid the red having to "run out".

I've also noticed rubber banding back into the circle and taking damage but that is a different issue. I haven't played GWF but from all the other classes I've played, being able to shift backwards without turning has been helpful. With the warlock shift, you just turn around and run.. giving the enemies free combat advantage. Different play style but not liking it at all as it doesn't provide a type of dodge.

midnightfang93 · July 2014

alkemist80 wrote: »

I am not liking the warlock shift ability. It is extremely unreliable and as of right now, it's much more difficult to avoid the red having to "run out".

I've also noticed rubber banding back into the circle and taking damage but that is a different issue. I haven't played GWF but from all the other classes I've played, being able to shift backwards without turning has been helpful. With the warlock shift, you just turn around and run.. giving the enemies free combat advantage. Different play style but not liking it at all as it doesn't provide a type of dodge.

Welcome to the life of GWF sprint.

crixus8000 · July 2014

gabryel wrote: »

It's a horrible and unreliable defensive ability, even on the GWF. It is only becuase GWFs were never intended to "dodge" attacks, that no one has complained too much about it. It's not even an issue of it being an ability for melee classes, as melee classes that are reliant on dodging and evasion have shift abilities comprable to teleport.

I can't say how well the devs thought it out when they decided to give the class a "sprint" shift ability; but if it was intended, does it mean the Warlock is meant to be a tanking caster?

The warlock has good hp and many defensive and hp gaining abilities, he is a defensive wizard basically but still with high dmg so i think the shift is fine it just needs changing to be more like the gwf shift but with a warlock style.

Also no one complains about gwf shift because its great and there is nothing wrong with it, being able to get around faster and quickly moving in and out of attacks is good in all situations.

theshadowbreaker · July 2014

crixus8000 wrote: »

The warlock has good hp and many defensive and hp gaining abilities, he is a defensive wizard basically but still with high dmg so i think the shift is fine it just needs changing to be more like the gwf shift but with a warlock style.

Also no one complains about gwf shift because its great and there is nothing wrong with it, being able to get around faster and quickly moving in and out of attacks is good in all situations.

GWF has more hp, much more deflect and damage resistance, unstoppable, stamina regen in class stat (strength), easy to use, fast CC powers, temporal invincibility class feature. I don't see any of those with Warlock. Did you play it at least to 40 lvl on preview? It has problems with normal PvE content if you don't spam little sprint steps and of course you will get hit every time, always, only sometimes you will avoid being CC-ed with sprint. It seems that warlock has 2/3 of gwf sprint bar and 2/3 of stamina regen but even with the same amount this class is too squishy in comparison to TR and HR to even think about taking damage head on, mainly because of little deflect. In dungeons and pvp it will be disaster, especially when going healer/tank build where you must be close to enemy to be usefull. Every trackable power will hit you, if you don't hide behind a wall or rock (try that in open space or boss fights), always, you can diminish only 30% of that and you don't see a problem here? Relatively big hp pool (only if going full con build) and lifesteal doesn't mean anything without big amount of deflect, dmg resistance and cc resist. You will just be one shoted in sprint by all dragons, hulks, everything with drag powers because there is no way you can get away from those with sprint alone (at least more than one time).

No one is complaining about gwf sprint? lol, we are playing different game I suppose. In only this thread some people were complaining about it and if unstoppable wasn't there GWF would have really hard time surviving anything with this clunky sprint (proven many times when unstoppable was bugged). Maybe with really low latency it is more reliable but so far it's the worst shift mechanic to dodge/mitigate any damage or CC.

charononus · July 2014

crixus8000 wrote: »

The warlock has good hp and many defensive and hp gaining abilities, he is a defensive wizard basically but still with high dmg so i think the shift is fine it just needs changing to be more like the gwf shift but with a warlock style.

Also no one complains about gwf shift because its great and there is nothing wrong with it, being able to get around faster and quickly moving in and out of attacks is good in all situations.

I've been thinking about this more, and I've become convinced that even though the sprint is more in line with the source books, it should still be changed to a teleport. GWF sprint only works because of unstoppable, high defense, and the general want to be hit so that you can pop unstoppable. This really will probably be bad in epics and pvp.

mehguy138 · July 2014

I think that Warlock shift ability should be a 2 seconds stealth, consumes 50% of stamina. The first passive you get (can't remember the name) would increase it by 0.33/0.66/1 sec. You'd get a full AoE damage immunity while stealthed.

theshadowbreaker · July 2014

mehguy138 wrote: »

I think that Warlock shift ability should be a 2 seconds stealth, consumes 50% of stamina. The first passive you get (can't remember the name) would increase it by 0.33/0.66/1 sec. You'd get a full AoE damage immunity while stealthed.

Nice idea but 2 secs dmg immunity and stealth seems too op. If we are going this route maybe pressing shift takes 50% stamina and makes you a shadow for 2 secs with 100% deflect chance or +50% dmg resistance, 30% faster walk speed and CC immunity? 50% would be much better than 30% and 2 secs give hope to work on higher latency.

mehguy138 · July 2014

theshadowbreaker wrote: »

Nice idea but 2 secs dmg immunity and stealth seems too op. If we are going this route maybe pressing shift takes 50% stamina and makes you a shadow for 2 secs with 100% deflect chance or +50% dmg resistance, 30% faster walk speed and CC immunity? 50% would be much better than 30% and 2 secs give hope to work on higher latency.

Damage immunity was meant to give an ability to stay in red areas in PvE, as direct damage or dots would still deal their damage, but I like your idea to provide 100% deflect chance more.

xthebluespiritx · July 2014

it took some getting used to having a sprint with a spellcaster, but after that its not so bad. just as long as they change those **** animations

gabryel · July 2014

If they can't change the animations, how about they add a "hump" to character's back whenever someone rolls the class, so that we can at least attribute that posture to a physical deformity?

xthebluespiritx · July 2014

some possible names i was thinking for my char:
Igor
curious george
quasimodo

silence1x · July 2014

xthebluespiritx wrote: »

some possible names i was thinking for my char:
Igor
curious george
quasimodo

Silverback
Banana
Humpty hump

charononus · July 2014

Even though he's not a hunchback, I have an urge to make a dwarf warlock and name him Tyrion.

doriangreigh · July 2014

How about just phasing the warlock, no sprinting done just phase them out and give them DR, it would kinda make them like a GF but the effect would be cooler. There is only so much you can do with shift mechanics without repeating them, another suggestion I would make would be to make shift power up the warlocks attacks, since they are made kinda tanky with con features why not capitalize on that, instead of high mobility they stand there slightly phased with a minor boost in DR or Deflection and a boost in power. The shift doesn't last very long so that might be something to think about in their single target dps craziness.

myrnym · July 2014

gabryel wrote: »

It's a horrible and unreliable defensive ability, even on the GWF. It is only becuase GWFs were never intended to "dodge" attacks, that no one has complained too much about it. It's not even an issue of it being an ability for melee classes, as melee classes that are reliant on dodging and evasion have shift abilities comprable to teleport.

I can't say how well the devs thought it out when they decided to give the class a "sprint" shift ability; but if it was intended, does it mean the Warlock is meant to be a tanking caster?

I dodge attacks all the time using GWF sprint. Also I use it to chase people down. It's pretty awesome, actually.

But Warlock isn't a cannon-melee-tank, so charging into people's faces with it seems rather unhelpful.

I'd make it so the Warlock "walk" gave you increased speed (and full speed even while backpedaling / strafing), 50% DR & CC immunity. Seeing as you can't dodge attacks with it (aka 100% DR & CC immunity), it should not only make you faster, but last significantly longer on your stamina bar vs. how many dodges the CW (comparable ish class) gets with their stamina bar.

That's my $.02, though. The Warlock currently looks really, really bad for PvP, so I won't be playing one.

Warlock "Shift" mechanic

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