There should be 2 PvP Queues - Rated and Unrated

maroucat · June 2014

Rated (13k+ GS Required)
+Advances PvP Campaign
+Anything goes
+Counts toward standing

Unrated (no GS Required. Enchants disabled, Artifact stat bonuses disabled, boons disabled).
-Doesn't advance Standing
-Doesn't advance PvP campaign
-Does count for dailies and award Glory
-All 10-59 PvP is treated as Unrated (R10/Perf/Arti twinking in low BG's is lame, and turns new players off the game)

This would give competitive teams an actual place to play against other competitive teams instead of pugstomping, and would also allow people to gear up or play for fun without being constantly thrown into terrible matches.

Yeah, a person in BiS/Profound is still gonna murder a person in 60 blues or welfare epics, but without those r9+ slots, perfect enchants, boons, and arti bonuses, it won't be nearly the lopsided snoozefest it is today. No more one rotation wonders. Everyone will actually be able to compete, even if not on exactly equal footing.

This is a post from another thread being made into it's own topic, as it merits it's own discussion.

ripyourlipsoff · June 2014

I like it, so unrated PVP is for getting geared / Rated ~ is for geared players to fight for rank!

maroucat · June 2014

Yeah, basically best of both worlds. You build yourself up to burliness and compete with the best in rated. Fresh 60s/new players aren't screwed, and there is still very solid reasons to get good gears/enchants, because the unrated stuff doesn't advance the pvp campaign or grow your e-peen. Strong PvP'ers have a place to jump in and unwind without having boring lopsided matches when the intensity of all the rated matches gets to them.

Also, the part about making all the lower bg's act that way is important. Some nasty twinked (perfect/R10) premades going round in the lower level dominations these days.

gertrude4life · June 2014

Nice idea. People who don't like to pvp wouldn't get stomped just because they are trying to complete dailies and people who do like pvp could actually advance in standings against people who are a challenge.

adsfelipe · June 2014

bad ideia.. i have 15k gs.. i work hard to be powerfull.. in pvp i want to kick some ***..

that is the point of PVP.. if u want just play go PVE.. if you want to kill all, then work hard too and kill a entire team..

i for exemple.. will build a 12.999k gs and kick all guys hahaha

maroucat · June 2014

gertrude4life wrote: »

Nice idea. People who don't like to pvp wouldn't get stomped just because they are trying to complete dailies and people who do like pvp could actually advance in standings against people who are a challenge.

Yes, I think some of people who just do PvE now because of the PvP situation would queue if they were able to jump in and have fun matches. Sometimes even just to pass time, and entertained customers play more, and thus buy more.

I also think many of the PvP focused new players who burn out of the game in a few weeks after hitting 60, wouldn't. What burns people out now is this long boon and gear grind, and their inability to have fun PvP matches until it is sufficiently progressed. As long as they could still play fun PvP matches while working on their gear and boons, they would have fun, stick around, and grow the community. Players who leave don't spend any money.

maroucat · June 2014

adsfelipe wrote: »

bad ideia.. i have 15k gs.. i work hard to be powerfull.. in pvp i want to kick some ***..

that is the point of PVP.. if u want just play go PVE.. if you want to kill all, then work hard too and kill a entire team..

i for exemple.. will build a 12.999k gs and kick all guys hahaha

Can't tell if serious, but I laughed.

ayroux · June 2014

I like the idea, but would RATHER see:

1) PRE-made Que.
2) Normal Que.

Premade Que is a team of 5 que up against another team of 5. You can ONLY get matched against another premade using this feature. This would hopefully encourage people to play premades again.

Normal Que would take 4 people or less... Honestly there is no real way to get around it, even with a 4 man premade that leaves 1 bad PUG which is MORE than enough to give opportunity to win for the opposing team... While this system isnt ideal, its probably the best were gonna get.

silverkelt · June 2014

As much as I dont like my 15k characters getting rocked by the 17k+ crowd it does give me something to strive for.

If we split the queue , some people will never strive for anything else, some will just abuse it, knowing the right set ups to get to 1 GS score under , with their skill and knowledge and right combination of stats they will just rake in glory , I mean whats the point of even defending bases per se if they dont count towards leader-board. They wont support teams and just take in any easy kills/points available.

Every once in awhile Ill get dropped pugged against some EoA or Chocolate Shoppe guy and its always fun to test myself, usually the loser, but every once in awhile can take one or two down. Why take all the fun away from me =P..

Its a progression not a immediate result for many of us.

Secondly, Im not opposed to some sort of minimum entry standards, I think it should be the same as IWD honestly. At least you minimise the 6.7k insta death out there. Of course you can look at it different ways, will be much harder to get double kills =P..

Im not in the pro league as some of you honestly, so I dont fully get where you are coming from, but those are my two cents.

godlysoul2 · June 2014

I think something like this is a good idea or an experienced vs non-experienced que perhaps that could be accessed only after playing so many matches with a certain GS/boon accomplishment. I also like the idea of introducing a basic PvP tutorial before people can que which teaches basics about fighting on point, starting strategies, point holding, ect.

maroucat · June 2014

As much as I dont like my 15k characters getting rocked by the 17k+ crowd it does give me something to strive for.

If we split the queue , some people will never strive for anything else, some will just abuse it, knowing the right set ups to get to 1 GS score under , with their skill and knowledge and right combination of stats they will just rake in glory , I mean whats the point of even defending bases per se if they dont count towards leader-board. They wont support teams and just take in any easy kills/points available.

I never said the unrated queue should have a gearscore cap. It shouldn't IMO. The goal would be to make it (less) imbalanced than it is now by removing the huge bonuses earned over time, huge costs, or grinding.

So, compare a BiS GWF with all rank 10's versus a BiS GWF with no enchants, no orange artifact stat bonuses, no Armor Enchant, No Weapon Enchant, no boon bonuses. Enchants, arti bonuses, and boons take you there. The gear will get you far, but in the unrated even someone in great gear is going to be sitting at a fairly low gearscore without arti/boon/enchant stat bonuses comparitive to what they have with it all on. Probably 5-6k points less. Yes, it is that big of a difference.

Yeah, they'd hit the new people and casuals 25-50% harder than those people hit them. So what, they earned it. But nobody would be doing 2-300% the damage of other people, so it'd be far better than it is today.

Now rated is where you'd want to end up eventually, cause that's where you get PvP boons, and Leadboard <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Who would use unrated? Everyone, casuals, pve'ers doing dailies, fresh toon gearing out, and expert pvp'ers who need a break from the intensity of 2 hour domination games in rated.

Who would use rated? Everyone serious about PvP, once they acquired decent enough stuff to be somewhat competitive there.

The goal is to have a low commitment PvP environment people can just into to *HAVE FUN* and gear up less painfully. Some people are occasional PvP'ers, the current system screws them. Some people are competitive PvP'ers, the current system screws them. Some people are truly new to the game. The current system screws them hardest of all.

kolevra · June 2014

The game needs 3 separate queues the way I see it:

-Beginner's Bracket : A queue for fresh 60s to gear up and get some experience with endgame PvP. Limitations on this would include things like maximum Gear Score and Total Matches Played/Won, where upon reaching a certain point players would no longer be eligible for this bracket.

-Normal Queue : Queue for PvP exactly like the queue we have now except that players' leaderboard status would not be changed by games played in this queue.

-Ranked Queue : Ranked queue would let players queue for a ranked match in which they could climb/fall on the leaderboard and improve/lower in their rank. This queue would not allow premade groups (solo-queue only) and would also form teams to be strictly Rainbow.

nuudlz · June 2014

Nevermind this post...

fuzzychaos13 · June 2014

maroucat wrote: »

Rated (13k+ GS Required)
+Advances PvP Campaign
+Anything goes
+Counts toward standing

Unrated (no GS Required. Enchants disabled, Artifact stat bonuses disabled, boons disabled).
-Doesn't advance Standing
-Doesn't advance PvP campaign
-Does count for dailies and award Glory
-All 10-59 PvP is treated as Unrated (R10/Perf/Arti twinking in low BG's is lame, and turns new players off the game)

This would give competitive teams an actual place to play against other competitive teams instead of pugstomping, and would also allow people to gear up or play for fun without being constantly thrown into terrible matches.

Yeah, a person in BiS/Profound is still gonna murder a person in 60 blues or welfare epics, but without those r9+ slots, perfect enchants, boons, and arti bonuses, it won't be nearly the lopsided snoozefest it is today. No more one rotation wonders. Everyone will actually be able to compete, even if not on exactly equal footing.

This is a post from another thread being made into it's own topic, as it merits it's own discussion.

I REALLY LOVE THIS IDEA, THIS IS A GREAT IDEA!! Please do this Dev's !

spongebob56 · June 2014

I like this system. It seems to cover the vast majority of issues people have with PvP, while at the same time giving true PvP pros a place to play and excel. I imagine those who actually suck at PvP, but faceroll thanks to gear or exploits, are about the only ones who would hate such a system. But they are an unhealthy element to keep around anyways as they just result in less players.

ivantomdisplay · June 2014

Thumbs up!

maroucat · June 2014

magenubbie wrote: »

While I understand the sentiment of what people like Maroucat are trying to do, I'm getting rather sick of asking Cryptic to hold hands to the people that don't bother learning anything in the game.

While I know this will affect me probably more than the elites since I'm merely a casual PvP player with a reasonable rating, I'm this close to saying screw it all and let them get killed. They'll abandon PvP soon enough if they don't smarten up. This leaves the casual PvP people like me stuck in the middle and the newbies without a way to advance and it's not a real solution. I'm very well aware of this. But my sentiment is slowly drifting towards that attitude. I'm nowhere close to being able to compete with the elite, nor do I have the desire to do so. I just want a fun match and I'm not afraid to work for it in a basic profound set and r7s.

However, I did work to get that far, and I'd be very pissed -to say the least- if I am not allowed to do my PvP campaign just because I can't match the 17k+ elites in the 13k+ bracket. Nor do I see a reason not to count boons and enchantments. I worked for that stuff just as any of the elites did. So rough brackets like this is not the answer. Premade vs premade only doesn't work either. People who leveled together and start PvPing together have no business in the premade bracket either.

I say Cryptic needs to stop buffing power everywhere and with every module. 19k GS is just ridiculous for content that requires only 12k. 15k max with BiS is more than enough for IWD if I can do it with a 3 week old neglected 11k MoF CW. And I'm nowhere near the best player in the game. There's absolutely no reason to go any higher without shortening the content's replay value. Lower the gear values back to normal, then we can discuss how bad it is to have a newbie in your group. This goes for PvE as well as PvP of course.

Till then, the only thing Cryptic can do is create a challenge queue for premade vs premade. If the system just displays the average GS and/or team makeup of the team that's up for a challenge, premades will have a fairly good idea if they want to challenge them or not. In return, display the same info of the challenging team to the defending team and have them decide if they want to accept the challenge or not. Of course, to prevent spamming challenges against outclassed teams, teams should only be able to challenge the same team once every 5 minutes and there can't be more than 2-3k average GS (or whatever figure you like to make sure it's a reasonably equal match) between the two teams. If desired, add a required team makeup. This will work for both beginning PvP guilds/groups as well as the elite. 2 friends can still PuG, Solo players can still PuG, newbies are free to PuG, all without regard to GS or experience. It's the elite minority that need to be removed from the rest of the game. Not vice versa with several punishments to boot.

But I'd much rather see all gear values lose 10% of their scores and back in line with the game's content before we take up a discussion like this. Cryptic's burning it's own hands with the infinitely increasing power gaps between elite and new players.

While I agree with some of your sentiments, it's too late, that boat has already sailed on ever increasing gearflation and power surge at level 60. By the time module 6 rolls round toons will be at 40k gearscore and have boons to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> demon fire for 19k damage (around the total health many of the classes have at fresh 60).

I too am a semi-casual PvP'er, and I sit somewhere around page 250 with 14k Gearscore. I also like to alt it up. Eventually my favorite chars will be at an ok GearScore, but they'll probably ever be 10-15 boons and a tier behind the people who get super serious. I'll also always be rolling new chars as new paths and classes are introduced. I can't keep doing this without some changes. It's just too brutal getting these new characters to be able to play as something other than fodder. Every new module will make the brutality phase longer and longer, so something's gotta give, and this is a potential solution.

bucklittle · June 2014

maroucat wrote: »

Rated (13k+ GS Required)
+Advances PvP Campaign
+Anything goes
+Counts toward standing

Unrated (no GS Required. Enchants disabled, Artifact stat bonuses disabled, boons disabled).
-Doesn't advance Standing
-Doesn't advance PvP campaign
-Does count for dailies and award Glory
-All 10-59 PvP is treated as Unrated (R10/Perf/Arti twinking in low BG's is lame, and turns new players off the game)

Rated
+Counts toward standing

Unrated
-Doesn't advance Standing

The game is PVE focus and most players play for the PVE. My point is this isn't a competitive PVP game. So if you're going to provide a means for competitive players to play in ranked matches, their doesn't need to be any additional incentives that unranked doesn't provide.

Things like not advancing the PVP campaign for one or the other goes against the competitive atmosphere.

syn100 · June 2014

magenubbie wrote: »

Till then, the only thing Cryptic can do is create a challenge queue for premade vs premade. If the system just displays the average GS and/or team makeup of the team that's up for a challenge, premades will have a fairly good idea if they want to challenge them or not. In return, display the same info of the challenging team to the defending team and have them decide if they want to accept the challenge or not. Of course, to prevent spamming challenges against outclassed teams, teams should only be able to challenge the same team once every 5 minutes and there can't be more than 2-3k average GS (or whatever figure you like to make sure it's a reasonably equal match) between the two teams. If desired, add a required team makeup. This will work for both beginning PvP guilds/groups as well as the elite. 2 friends can still PuG, Solo players can still PuG, newbies are free to PuG, all without regard to GS or experience. It's the elite minority that need to be removed from the rest of the game. Not vice versa with several punishments to boot.

Is impossible for Cryptic separate the PvP in 2 queues: Pugs/Premades for a financial point of view: premade players are the milk cow and the pay to win guys that filled Cryptic wallet... if u separate Pugs/Premades there are zero incentives for that kinds of bad/poor pvp'ers to buy zen... and at the end is right: need someone that pay for the NW services and for Cryptic revenue.

So as F2P MMO we need that kinds of guys... are the bottom lifeform in any F2P... always unwelcomed, but necessary.

I appreciate alot the style of Mr. Gentlemancrush in that: protect the herd of sheeps from wolves... buff them and nerf all others... direct and right straight to the target

So is impossible put P2W players against P2W players... maybe u can give them some special events: for example the fasted to typing the paypal password or numbers of credit card, but that its all.

maroucat · June 2014

So, the twinking in low level BG's finally did me in. My newest toon is facing folks rolling with R9-10 and perf chants in the 10-19 bracket, so I level em to 20-29 bracket, same. 30-39? Same.

It's like level 60 PvP is currently *before you get geared*, in some ways it's actually worse. For now, I'm taking a break.

There should be 2 PvP Queues - Rated and Unrated

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