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Tanks in Neverwinter
only1kl
Member Posts: 22
Hello everyone. I am a relatively new player (returning from launch) and I was hoping to get some advice about the game as I know there has been many changes. I love utility classes (tanks, healers and buffers, etc) and I hope to make a devoted cleric and either a GF or GWF. As the name of the thread implies I hope to get some advice on tank choices. When the game first released both Guardian Fighters and Great Weapon Fighters could take on the role. After lurking the forums for information I have realized that Guardian Fighters are more less broken. So I made a GWF in hopes that it would offer good damage and better tanking. To my dismay, all the guides for GWF are for pvp or dps.
Is tanking viable as a GWF? Are tanks viable at all in game or is just a dps race on mobs and bosses while you pray you don't die?
Is tanking viable as a GWF? Are tanks viable at all in game or is just a dps race on mobs and bosses while you pray you don't die?
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The closest to tanking I get in this game is on my Destroyer-specced GWF, who can hold a very large number of mobs in a huddle of AoE without dying, just from raw DPS and the occasional "Come And Get It". It works a lot better than it did as a Sentinel specced GWF, too- that tree is mostly useful for PvP.
Thank you for the insight, Kattefjaes. I hope they fix these two classes and possibly bring paladin's in next because the game could really use a well balanced tank type.
Unfortunately, I don't think NW threw the trinity away on purpose- I think it was botched class design and botched dungeon design. Even if the GF was a good tank (it has the start of a sensible mechanic, but the balancing is hopelessly out of whack), the game doesn't need a tank. Most of the time, there are lots of small mobs which die quickly- and nothing really needs tanking. Anything that hits hard enough to be a danger telegraphs outrageously, or puts down some red.
Don't wait for a viable tank to be added to the game. If the game needed tanking, then the existing classes could do a passable job, probably. If untanked mobs were dangerous, DPS would have to learn to keep it in their pants, or die, as in most trinity MMOs. However, there's simply no reason to do so, here.
If another tanking class were added, it wouldn't mean that we suddenly needed a tank. I'm afraid your assertion that "the game could really use a balanced tank type" is very wide of the mark. In order to need a tank, the game would have to change a lot- fewer mobs, that hit like trucks and one or two-shotted squishies. Even bosses.. no, especially bosses do not require tanking, they're effectively pinantas with lots of HP for you to whack away at while the adds bother you.
I also wouldn't bother with a TR if you're planning to be a mostly PvE player- they bring very little of value to a dungeon any more. For PvE, a CW, GWF or at a pinch an HR would be more useful. A lot of parties still run with a DC too- though obviously only one per party, normally (they are terrible when built for DPS, before you ask). Good luck choosing a class.
Then of course, there's the problem that dedicated Guardian Fighters have more trouble than dedicated Great Weapon Fighters at tanking high-end content, but that's another story...
All in all, there is some "fun" to be had in trying to be a tank (or a kiter depending on the situation) and there can be places where you will feel like you're making a difference (mostly T2 pugs), and if you are a solo queuer, as a GF you get "privileges" as in, you usually end up in instances where bad pugs are wiping and in some of those, you can turn it around and pat yourself in the back if you really want to.
But yeah, for "extremely competitive PvE" it appears that both tanking and healing got the shaft so far, DPS and crowd control are undisputed kings in that department.
If you want to be have an idea of what tanking can be like in certain dungeons at level 60 look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o5ei_Spkh4&feature=youtu.be
It's Aboleth Overseer epic (T2) done with a pug that I joined right before boss, it's a gimmick fight where if someone manages to grab all the adds and kite them around, the rest can just focus on nuking boss if they are not pestered by adds.* In this sense, the tank's job is to grab the adds as fast as possible and run around in circles ...
* This strat is superior to knocking the frogs down on lava all the time (that should be done only when the boss submerges and part of the platform crumbles) because if you knock them they respawn (and with resetted aggro they may go to attack those who are on boss), their number is capped during various phases.
As for your final question: Yes, if you are dedicated to tanking is definitely viable as GWF, you may have lots of trouble in low level content (in fact they are completely hopeless in low level instances for tanking), but do not be fooled, in the end they scale up much better than Guardian Fighters and the fights become a lot more suited to their Unstoppable Mechanic than the GF's block. (lots of enemies = lots of hits = unstoppable up all the time for GWF = Guard meter instantly broken for GF)
You certainly make a difference, you reduce the DPS by blocking a slot with a useless GF.
Though, obviously, a decent GWF or CW can just be assigned to adds and kill them, making it safer for everyone, without the hazard of someone running in circles dragging a mob train all over the place. This is far safer and more elegant. What's more, the group with a GF will have taken longer to get to that point, due to having had to carry that GF in the first place.
(Disclaimer, I have a well-geared GF, and sadly have learned to admit to myself that it's simply a drain on resources in PvE, compared to my other five characters. Maybe those with fewer options or less play time have yet to experience this slightly depressing Damascene moment.)
In pugs one slot is always reserved to a GF by default, it's the queue system, so it's either a GF or nothing.
And if a GF is in you're better off doing it the kite way rather than waste the dps of a GWF or a CW on adds, they can just nuke boss and get it down faster.
Besides, most CWs or GWFs in pugs are not capable of soloing adds, at least in my experience (heck, in the video I posted one of the CWs died in less than 1 minute from boss start, because he tried to "help" with adds, even though I just told him to nuke boss -.-).
The.. queue? We're done here.
Yes, the queue, ever heard of it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queue
Nough said
Class balance is a wheel that constantly turns, there was a time when DCs and TRs were kings, and now it no longer seems to be the case.
Mod 4 is coming in August and there may be a buff to GF combined with a nerf to GWF that could rebalance things.
im not a believer anymore. And knowing the way cryptic "help" ... Most probably they will give gf threat and bug some gf abilities in the process.
In case u were wondering... I already got the point of cryptic:
"stop playing your gf, cause gf dont produce money so were not gonna invest time and money on this class"
" go play a hr , gwf or cw "
typical capitalism and corporate ideals
so no need to play nice and sugar coat all the facts. Gf are a second working priority line and dont produce money
for them so they re not going to help us... So we stop playing the class and go invest more money (more than i already payed on my gf )on their new hr .
The whole idea is spend , spend and spend some more.
More working classes and more balance should translate into a better product and hence more paying customers.
Agreed! Having a couple classes that are OP, will gather interest with 12 year olds and people that do not want to actually learn skill with the class. However having other class = to or able to counter another with a well timed or well executed encounters tactfully used would interest more people...
I am an older guy, in my 40s! Been playing games with my son forever, I came over to check this game out and enjoyed my experience until I hit 60 with my GF as it was a quick brick wall!
I make decent money, own my own house, couple cars etc... I'd be the person you want to interest in the game, not some kids with an allowance!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
They struggle to make tanks balanced in their games - all the way back to City of Heroes/Villains.
Either the content they make is untankable (bosses hit too hard), or the content doesn't actually require a real tank (DPS focused).
Even if they "fix" GFs, they will probably just make them more tanky - but that's not really what most groups are looking for.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I had the opportunity to play with a few Devs, but to your satisfaction @ripyourlipsoff none was playing (oh sorry just one of them for a little time) the GF.
Robert E. Lee
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Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
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That's not the problem with GF, adding buffs like making Lunging strike a cone attack is the definition of MISSING THE POINT and you can't fix something if you don't know what's wrong it it. I have no hope for GFs tbh, the problem lies in the design and mob/boss behavior.
Also mod3 only made things worse, i thought BLOCK existed because GFs can't move out of red spots but i see now abilities that eat all your guard in one attack and even go as far as proc your soulforge.
You make some good points.
Honestly there are 3 major pieces to the issue:
1) PvE Quest & Boss Encounter Design.
Boss encounter design, Moving away from big attacks, lots of adds to be dealt with.
2) GF Tanking tools like threat/aggro control & guard clearly need improvement.
This one is easy, and should be fixed and both directly relate to
A) Guard Meter
These are both lackluster, and need improvement IMO.
3) Some, not all, players misunderstand what the GF is supposed to be good at and just want them to do more damage (which to be fair to them, is because of #1).
The game is very DPS heavy, so many players want their GFs to do more damage even though that's not really what they are designed for. GFs were intended to be very survivable and to be able to control mobs. That's what needs improvement in the short term.
The GF needs to be the king of survivability, and their secondary is "controller" - they need to be decent at controlling mob movement to an extent (threat/aggro) with mechanics that punish the mobs that do not attack them.
When I first played this game as a GF, right at launch, two things stood out as being poor for the class.
1) Guard vs. Bosses.
2) Mark being fairly lackluster special ability.
Nothing has changed in all of that time for the two major unique keystone's of the class to perform it's role.
You people complaining there is either don't pay attention to the options or just want an easy mode typical tank which is just like every other mmorpg out there. Never winter is not those games.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Do you have any idea how the guard works? - it has a certain set of "Imaginary HP" on it lets say for argument sake it has 5000 HP.
a boss can hit you, lets say for 4000 Hp of damage - if you guard the attack (your imaginary HP block will absorb the full damage) but if you take the attack then it lets you mitigate it by your DR (50%?) and take only 2k points of damage.
so in my oppinion - it should apply the DR then subtract the remaining in your block imaginary HP
and here is another discussion for your definition of "guard is fine"
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?686301-Biggrins-quot-life-steal-quot-power-heals-through-GF-shield
Actually guard loss caps out at 18% or so for a single hit blocked so even if your 4000 damage hit against a 5000 HP guard meter is blocked it still will only cap out at 18% of you meter consumed, not 80% as you erroneous assumption states. This is balanced just fine.
Further a bugged mobs power does not equate to the guard being somehow imbalanced.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Lmao, that's not true at all. Looks like someone hasn't fought the BI Beholder yet.
Its massive ground-slam AoE will reduce my shield by at least half (with the +25% guard profound gear gives). And I've had ibs hits that take out chunks almost as high as that.
That would be hilarious, if true.
have you fought a hard hitting enemy - just like what the other poster mentioned blocking the Beholder 1 hit move can reduce your shield to 1/4 or your original shield meter - i don't see anything about 18% if i'm loosing almost 75% of my shield meter in just a single hit.
and my point to actually mentioned why the skill is bug is, when you mentioned that the Guard is fine but it is still plague by ridiculous bug is not fine by my definition.
Would you mention that knights challenge is fine? if it's bugged out once you get interrupted while casting it thus making the skill bug out? i don't think so -
Fine is by definition = working as intended
Now, while tanking is not needed, it's preferred to have for the squishier targets, DPS potential is tremendously reduced if the squishies are kiting around or sidestepping constantly.
If they're doing that, they're bad squishies. DPS needs to stack the mobs neatly to AoE them down. If they're dragging them all around the room, they are playing badly. Kite the mobs back into the AoE, and they soon get locked down in seconds once more. The neater the stack, the higher the DPS and the safer the party.
Bad HRs in particular were famous for kiting a mob or two around a room in a panicky manner, doing very low DPS while the rest of the group burned down the other 98% of the mobs. Luckily with the near-demise of archery-centric HRs as a viable thing, this has reduced slightly.
At the risk of repeating myself- Neverwinter doesn't need tanks- even as a crutch for rubbish groups. It just makes them more rubbish by reducing overall DPS due to wasting a slot without providing anything major in return. The Darwinistic pressure of letting incompetent DPS die if they flail and drag random mobs all around the room is also a surprisingly effective and rapid kill or cure.
This is an inconvenient truth. No matter what you do, a GF is largely a waste of a slot in PvE outside of FH. I am considering salvaging my Timeless set- as my GF is only at all useful in PvP these days- with considerable time and AD investment, to boot. Any attempts to stack more GS than the current 15.whateverK on my PvE set is sadly an exercise in... well, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> polishing. Tanking isn't needed, even if it did work. Moreover, I put out less DPS in any spec than I could on my CW, GWF HR or yes, even TR, if I stripped some of their gear off to drop them down to 10k.
Tanking is not needed, you are a debuff to your party if you're taking a GF into a dungeon.
It's a shame, I like the base class mechanics, just it's probably more suited to a game other than NW.
people !!!!
Just ignore this moron!!!
He crearly is one payed and babysit cryptic player who's out to confused the people!!!
Obviously dont know the class and dont care about getting it better than it is!!!
Whe need a guard that takes 100 hits moron!!!
And in pvp much , much more hitting speed,speed movement and mobility,
damage resistance better than any class...and a lot .. A whole lot more
regen ,deflect,hp... I mean much like your op hr have at the moment...if not better!