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Guardian fighters weakness and bug
isuuck2
Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
So we all know that armor pen, bronzewood, greater plague fire, and terror counter defense which is one of the strongest if not the strongest guardian fighter stat. We are forced to stack defense even though we have long past the hard cap which is about 48%(could be wrong). Why is there no offensive stat or enchantment that counters deflection? which is extremely strong and overpowered in pvp. Also why is it that the devs don't want to fix the bug on knights challenge, before knights challenge was instant and efficient. Here is a monster in icewindale using knights challenge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIndOkhiFSU. That is how it used to work, that is how it is suppose to work.
But if a player guardian fighter used knights challenge he would not be able to use his shield or attack for about 2secs. Using his shield or attacking would cancel knights challenge or spent it right into cool down without it activating. You can now dodge knights challenge and when you hit the hotkey for the skill it does not activate for about 2 seconds. During which you can not use your guard or attack or it will cancel the effect and it will go right into cool down without ever activating or you will have to try to do the skill again. If you get prone or control while waiting for knights challenge to activate it still activates and then you get blown up.
It seems like everything is stacked against us.
But if a player guardian fighter used knights challenge he would not be able to use his shield or attack for about 2secs. Using his shield or attacking would cancel knights challenge or spent it right into cool down without it activating. You can now dodge knights challenge and when you hit the hotkey for the skill it does not activate for about 2 seconds. During which you can not use your guard or attack or it will cancel the effect and it will go right into cool down without ever activating or you will have to try to do the skill again. If you get prone or control while waiting for knights challenge to activate it still activates and then you get blown up.
It seems like everything is stacked against us.
Post edited by isuuck2 on
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Comments
Gman
"also", not "instead". They earn it through their incredible nimbleness, the GF because of the shield. Both should obtain this %, and no one could complain.
Anymore commenting would be surely be punished, so I'll leave it at that
Any DoT counter deflect, that's why ppl are stacking dot skills+weapon enchant that does damage per stryke/power.
Word. Using it in PVP is a favourite of mine but to actually make it happen I need a ton of circumstances aligning in my favor or I get blown up just like you said. As a GF I absolutely need a good team to perform optimally which kinda cements us as a support class. If for some reason a GF get focused he stands no chance and he gets focused if the rest of his team fails to occupy at least one enemy each. My GWF on the other hand..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
2) No debuffs on deflect. His point is also there are basically no effects that debuff deflect, so a class that participates in stacking deflect is not punished from this dev itemization habit.
3) Not about dot damage. His point is not that there are tons of effects that can sustain dot damage while you have defense (that wouldn't make much sense), it just happened that dots are one common source of the debuff, and thus, the fact that you can be damaged from dots while deflect is at full is not really related to his point.
I extend this to point out that devs basically only debuff defense and restoration. Why is that? There is a whole itemization slew of fun to have with things like "Weapon Enchant Greater PantsOnFire: do 3% damage + 1% damage per a second, stacks 3 times, debuffs power by 20% per a stack."
Why stop at defense? Why not let enchants debuff offense? There is a little pain in stacking a stat then noticing a weapon enchant can make half that stat disappear, and armor effects can make a 1/3rd of it disappear, and people stacking multiple versions of the same weapon enchant but at different levels can make almost all disappear. Imagine if you could take a GWF stacking 10k power and debuff it down to 1k or 2k by clever stacking of effects. That would be defense debuff itemization right now.
I will bring the point home in one other way. When you are 1v1 defense can be a relevant tanky stat (commonly against random people that may not be min/maxing). Most people that are not hardcore PvPer's are not equipped to get through a ton of it, but when you are in small skirmishes such as open world or 20v20, the person that is tankiest is not the person with the most: tenacity, defense, deflect, HP, lifesteal. No because quite often once 4+ people are around there are numerous ways to debuff defense (and if min/maxing definitely so), and so at the time defense debuff stacking takes hold the person that is most tanky is the person with the most tenacity, deflect, HP, lifesteal. You can safely remove defense from the list at that point. Pretty often defense does basically nothing when multiple people are dropping effects on you. Not because you are getting hit by a ton of damage, but because it is nearly 0.
Finally, I really think competing available debuffs could have helped this situation a lot. 20% for 3 stacks to debuff power was over the top, but if we played in a game where people had a myriad of high quality choices for debuffs just the fact that you meet people emphasizing something else would have given defense some window to be more relevant. The situation seems to be created because everything was aimed at debuffing defense which ironically had its own stat (arpen) designed to push through it, and thus you get this situation where it isn't just likely you are going to get your defense shredded, but it basically happens in every large fight.
This ^ (I've said it too many times, WE HAVE A SHIELD, we should be the kings of Deflect, I don't think TR's deflect severity should be nerfed, but our deflect should be buffed to atleast 65%, WE HAVE A SHIELD TO DEFLECT ATTACKS!!!).
And This ^ (GPF, Terror, ArP, Abilities, Powers, etc..., there's a PLENTY amount of ways to neutralize our Defense, and not by a decent %, but by a huge %, not good for a Tanky GF.
If you do then ditch GF.
I'd also like to see the reduced turn speed while blocking adjusted, as well as the difficulty I sometimes have with breaking the 3 hit sequence of powers like crushing surge - so I often end up swinging one extra time before I can switch targets.
Adding guard meter recovery to some of the other powers would be nice as well.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
1. Defense is a given stat that applies to every incoming damage. The amount of defense potentially determines the survivability of the class itself since it determines damage reduction. High defense is always reliable.
2. Deflect, no matter how strong, relies on chance. 40~45% chance is not high enough to justify it as a main form of protection. Empirically, deflection/parry/evade/whateverthegamecallsit becomes strong enough to be considered as a main form of defense when it reaches the 60% threshold. You could pour every stat possible to deflection and still there's no chance a -- say, for example -- TR will ever be able to duke it out with a GWF or a GF. It is unreliable, and therefore a secondary layer of defense that is to be used with other means. Deflection doesn't have a debuff because the chance-based mechanics are by itself a self-debuff.
3. Countering a chance-based mechanic is simple: more attacks. More attempts = eventually some of the attacks go through. Hence the mention of DoTs, although DoTs in this game tend duplicate the initial form of damage, hence it isn't a real 'multiple attempt' at all.
Feytouched.
Also some classes excell in debuffing enemy damage. People don't know it because most people feed of information, and rarely take the painstaking process of experimenting things by themselves. A Whisperknife TR can debuff a target's damage output by 46%. Effectively the damage is cut by half.
In a multiple engagement environment, survivability begins to depend on tactics, not individual stats. There is nothing strange, nor undesirable, nor wrong about this.
There are already debuffs as you've mentioned. People just don't know which is which (since they never experiment nor study anything by themselves, and just blindly follow what the majority tells them), hence, falling under the illusion that everybody is out to debuff defense only.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Which is great if you have really fast attacks or slows, which GFs do not.
True. But therein lies differences between classes, does it not?
Otherwise we might just as well get rid of all the classes and give everyone exact same types of attacks and defenses.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
When my GWF toon takes damage he gets stronger because he quickly will be able to go unstoppable. Toghether with a high Life Steal stat and the huge amount of damage he deals he can heal himself during the time he is unstoppable. It's a simple cycle allowing him to ignore most red area attacks - or any other attacks for that matter.
The GF toon on the other hand gets weaker when taking damage. Quickly his shield breaks and there is nothing left helping him to avoid most of the damage he takes. Running from red areas is difficult because he is so slow. Also healing himself with Life Steal is hardly an option due to the mediocre amount of damage he is dealing. Fighter's Recovery can help but isn't available often enough.
I wish the GF had way more survivability paired with an increased damage output.
These observations are for PvE. In PvP things may be different.
In a rock-paper-scissors game, a GF is like an amputee
"Deflect is highly overrated" - keltz0r
In the end, AC+Defense stat determines Damage Reduction, and there is absolutely no denying that this form of mitigation is superior in every way to a chance-based mechanic of Deflection. If anything, stability and reliability means everything in mitigation of damage.
Again, Deflection becomes as powerful form of defense only when the chance goes up so high, that it happens often enough to become trustworthy -- the figures being around 60% chance and upwards, according to my own experience with various forms of "dodge tank" characters/classes over the years.
The currently achievable deflect chances being around 40~45%, is way too low to out perform true Damage Reduction in terms of mitigation. The only reason people are deluded and fooled into thinking that Deflect is better than Defense is because people only remember the times when their 15k attack was deflected down to 3.75k on someone. They never remember all the regular, normal instances where (Defense+AC = DR) would silently, but faithfully chop off chunks of incoming damage.
The reason why TRs or HRs or CWs don't build for defense, despite it being clearly superior in terms of mitigation, is that these non-tank classes are inherently penalized and disadvantaged so that they can't have any meaningful amount of (both) Defense and AC in the first place. Hence, none of these classes rely on Damage Reduction for self preservation. Being ranged HRs and CWs rely on range and CCs for self protection, TRs rely dominantly on stealth.
Don't exaggerate the effects of Deflect. When GFs have trouble bringing HRs or TRs down, its not because of Deflect. It's something else.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Guardian Fighters have low Deflection unless they stack it, it's usually around 15%-20%. GWF however have 25%-30% Deflection and HRs and TRs are through the roof.
The reason Repel doesn't work some times is because of Tenacity, and most GF are Dwarves that have a Racial Trait "Stand your Ground" which resists knock back and repel effects by 10%.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Race
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The point of this thread is that AC+Defense can be debuffed to effectively zero (after arpen kicks in), so it cannot be more effective than another stat because it has been debuffed to zero. There is no other stat in this game besides damage reduction that can be debuffed and penetrated to zero. A greater plague fire wielding vizier wielding CW alone can chunk out 45% + 1350 defense from you. Combine this with the fact that a greater plague fire stacks with a normal plague fire and/or terror and you can see an addition 20 to 30% removed from another player. I am going to assume the 1350 gets removed first. Throw in enough arpen to get through 24% mitigation, and you realize you 4500 defense or 1500 defense either way you were going to have the same mitigation. The extra 3000 won't matter. There is enough tools in the pvp toolbox to chew through 53% mitigation rates.
You cannot go all high-level and go well, "deflect is a chance based blah blah blah, and thus damage reduction > all" because damage reduction == ZERO in these all to common scenarios. In order order for a pvp combat stat to be worse it would have to aid your opponent.
That said I beat people in open world all the time as a GF, it is just I am well aware of what the original poster pointed out, that there are so many hard counters to defense, that you will run into scenarios where the person with 4500 defense and 1500 defense are effectively the same characters after the debuffs kick in, and it appears to be the only stat in the game where that happens.
Personally I don't think this is about 1v1s. I think this is about the variance that comes with a game where in one scenario your defense exist and in another scenario it gets complete taken away, while other people depending on other stats don't experience that same effect. Nobody depending on deflect can look at the debuffs on them and go, "**** my deflect is effectively zero." Or nobody depending on a hard core offense can look at the debuffs stacked on them and go, "**** my power is effectively zero," but that is a reality when you depend upon mitigation (which apparently is > all). You are going to have occasion to go, "**** my mitigation is effectively zero."
I never thought about it.... Hmm smart post! We should have a deflection debuff see if TRs like that! lol
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Then this whole thing is foolish and needless, to blurt out honestly.
You specifically state this is not about 1vs1. You say this is about 1vs many, and you're complaining that many people attacking and debuffing a GF will result in the GF becoming very vulnerable and weak.
As I've mentioned, chance based mechanics are a debuff to itself. You say it is unfair that two, three, four people can stack defense debuffs so high that it becomes zero? Two, three, four people attacking a deflect-reliant class (HRs or TRs) will have their attacks punch through deflect so often that you don't need any debuff in first place. Like said the element of chance is its own self-deterrent. Heck, if 4~5 people are attacking one person, even a 75% deflect/evade chance will not save you if that's all you depend on.
Just how the fek many people do you think the GF needs to be able to shrug off, to be satisfied? 10?
45%? I can deal 68% defense debuff with my TR alone, and that's only effectively around 13% damage increase on my part. For my 68% defense debuff done onto your GF, my 2,000 damage attack will hit for 2,260. Woop-dee-too. Did you people actually combat test just how much defense debuff actually helps with damage? Because, the way you're talking as if a GF that would register a 2k hit would suddenly be hit for 10k (it sure SOUNDS that way), I seriously think not.
On the other hand, have 5 people just slam on a TR without any debuffs at all and let's see if he actually survives longer than a GF. Be my guest. Let's see how that passive, so mighty "undebuffable", 40~45% deflect helps.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You are missing the point, High Defense players like the GF can have their defense taken down to almost nothing whereas the high deflection classes can not lose any deflection rating. Yes this is a big deal, I see TRs taking a beating by 2-3 people on a node everyday and his hp barely moves... So its a big help for you trust me, I think what he was saying is that Enchants and debuffs should take into consideration ALL DR to = its mitigation debuff.
So instead of a debuff removing 15% defense stacking 3 times, it debuffs 15% Defense Rating stacking 3 times this would take defense/ deflection/ AC/ etc... into consideration and lower each of them evenly.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If Deflect was that OP you'd see many, many more combat TRs running around. And you just don't. For a reason.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I wont roll a GWF so I'll take your word for it...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
also, unstoppable > 75% deflect severity. i tested it and i took far more damage trying to out-tank a gwf in unstoppable with my ITC, which makes sense since they can go up to 90% resist according to some of them.
deflect is good when fighting wizards/hunters, but can be near useless against gwf's/guardians who can just prone-chain you to death.
i even lost 20k hp in 3 sec at the start of a fight because i decided not to use ITC right from the start against a wizard and effectively lost......deflect is not a dependable stat.