Guardian Fighter - Swordmaster

xjosh19 · May 2014

So i recently respec my IV for a Swordmaster for testing purpose, so far the dmg output has increased considerably (Conqueror).

I would like for people that play GF-Swordmaster or have experience with it to post their thoughts here. So we can discuss and try to come up with the best possible feat-power-passive for this Paragon and to maximize the GF dmg overall.

lisaxxii · May 2014

PvP or PvE? I'm pretty sure Swordmaster is still junk unless something has changed. I know there were a few people running SM with "tanky" builds.

lvl99looter · May 2014

I was just messing with the Swordmaster last week. It's really good for tanking in PvE, but the lost of frontline for flourish is a bad trade =S... The animation takes waayy too long, allowing your opponent time to dodge or block. But if you do the whole life steal + SoS + steel grace combo. You can tank a lot of damage. But anyways, I don't recommend it. At least not until more GF's can figure something out.

thestaggy · May 2014

lvl99looter wrote: »

I was just messing with the Swordmaster last week. It's really good for tanking in PvE, but the lost of frontline for flourish is a bad trade =S... The animation takes waayy too long, allowing your opponent time to dodge or block. But if you use do the whole life steal + SoS + steel grace combo. You can tank a lot of damage. But anyways, I don't recommend it. At least not until more GF's can figure something out.

The loss of Frontline and Threatening is just too much for me to bare. I dunno what I'd do without Threatening.

xjosh19 · May 2014

Take into account that is a DPS style what im looking for, so Weapon Strike adds some nice dps.

qutsemnie · May 2014

I only do PvE. I switched last night from Iron Vanguard Protector (IVP) to Swordmaster Protector (SMP), and ta few things were immediately obvious:

1) SMP is way stronger for tanking than IVP.
2) SMP does way more sustained damage with low DPS stats.
3) The loss of Threatening Rush is as annoying as I thought it would be, and makes it a bit harder to protect people. You lose the AE hate generation and use lose the instant re-positioning. It seems ironic to me. Swordmaster is a slow ponderous beast of a build that dominates where it stands. Iron Vanguard hops around with agility being wherever is most opportune.
4) You lose Frontline, but Weapon Master Strike + Steel Blitz is stronger in hordes for dps, so all you really lose is the control, but I never slotted it for the control. I slotted it for AE dps, and at first I was like, "okay what encounters do I use in the AE dps scenario?" And then I realized Weapon Master Strike + Steel Blitz mean I do more AE dps, so it doesn't really matter that I can't find a good second AE encounter ability.
5) Flourish is bad and it does suck, but it doesn't matter. I just don't use it. What is flourish supposed to do for me really? Make me do dps? The stun is underwhelming and hard to target exactly when you need it. I tried, but I realized it was way to hard to do clutch interrupts in a horde. I do more dps on Swordmaster even without it, so why do I care if I don't use it? It would be nice if it was cool, but it doesn't seem to matter.
6) You lose Trample the Fallen, but to me Trample the Fallen only looks better than Steel Blitz in solo fight scenarios which is basically PvP or strongly DPS focused. I slotted it when I was soloing or doing trivial stuff, but not many other times.

The big ticket items on Swordmaster seem to be:
Weapon Master Strike which is best in slot across both for hordes.
Steel Blitz which is great for hordes and designed for WMS.
Steel Defense which is best in slot across both for rough tanking scenarios, and makes it so you need to sweat your defense less. It has a super low stress interaction with Fighter's Recovery that makes you feel like a dirty cheater inside (that is to say... it is satisfying to use).

The big ticket items on Iron Vanguard seem to be:
Threatening Rush which is best in slot for control and agility. TR has a great interaction with Enhanced Mark, and other mark based passives such as Daunting Challenge.
Frontline Surge is which is one of two AE encounters available to us, and it has a 5 person prone.

Anyway my early sentiment basically boils down to "Swordmaster Protector equals slow ponderous beast of a GF" vs "Iron Vanguard Protector equals always in the right spot doing the right thing super agile with constant pressure". I decided the first impression is a win for Swordmaster in PvE, but I could flip if I get sick of walking around the battlefield.

ravenan · May 2014

And what about knight challenge + flurish in pvp scenario? I saw few SM at domination but they never seems to use it. I wonder why...

lvl99looter · May 2014

ravenan wrote: »

And what about knight challenge + flurish in pvp scenario? I saw few SM at domination but they never seems to use it. I wonder why...

Knight's Challenge is VERY dangerous to use in PvP, especially against an OP GWF lol. You will literally be 1 shotted by an IBS crit

! Plus, it's all too easy to avoid flourish.

ravenan · May 2014

I use it on daily basis(kc+ls+bc). But im tanky enough to take the panishement. I just wondered how it works. When its tough and i need to troll enemy base i use fs+iW+bc.

+45% shield and prones. We can easly control gwf. Hrs are different story...

emilemo · May 2014

qutsemnie wrote: »

I only do PvE. I switched last night from Iron Vanguard Protector (IVP) to Swordmaster Protector (SMP), and ta few things were immediately obvious:

1) SMP is way stronger for tanking than IVP.
2) SMP does way more sustained damage with low DPS stats.
3) The loss of Threatening Rush is as annoying as I thought it would be, and makes it a bit harder to protect people. You lose the AE hate generation and use lose the instant re-positioning. It seems ironic to me. Swordmaster is a slow ponderous beast of a build that dominates where it stands. Iron Vanguard hops around with agility being wherever is most opportune.
4) You lose Frontline, but Weapon Master Strike + Steel Blitz is stronger in hordes for dps, so all you really lose is the control, but I never slotted it for the control. I slotted it for AE dps, and at first I was like, "okay what encounters do I use in the AE dps scenario?" And then I realized Weapon Master Strike + Steel Blitz mean I do more AE dps, so it doesn't really matter that I can't find a good second AE encounter ability.
5) Flourish is bad and it does suck, but it doesn't matter. I just don't use it. What is flourish supposed to do for me really? Make me do dps? The stun is underwhelming and hard to target exactly when you need it. I tried, but I realized it was way to hard to do clutch interrupts in a horde. I do more dps on Swordmaster even without it, so why do I care if I don't use it? It would be nice if it was cool, but it doesn't seem to matter.
6) You lose Trample the Fallen, but to me Trample the Fallen only looks better than Steel Blitz in solo fight scenarios which is basically PvP or strongly DPS focused. I slotted it when I was soloing or doing trivial stuff, but not many other times.

The big ticket items on Swordmaster seem to be:
Weapon Master Strike which is best in slot across both for hordes.
Steel Blitz which is great for hordes and designed for WMS.
Steel Defense which is best in slot across both for rough tanking scenarios, and makes it so you need to sweat your defense less. It has a super low stress interaction with Fighter's Recovery that makes you feel like a dirty cheater inside (that is to say... it is satisfying to use).

The big ticket items on Iron Vanguard seem to be:
Threatening Rush which is best in slot for control and agility. TR has a great interaction with Enhanced Mark, and other mark based passives such as Daunting Challenge.
Frontline Surge is which is one of two AE encounters available to us, and it has a 5 person prone.

Anyway my early sentiment basically boils down to "Swordmaster Protector equals slow ponderous beast of a GF" vs "Iron Vanguard Protector equals always in the right spot doing the right thing super agile with constant pressure". I decided the first impression is a win for Swordmaster in PvE, but I could flip if I get sick of walking around the battlefield.

WMS + Steel Blitz is indeed a great combo but let me ask you how often do you get to use your At-Will in a heavy T2 fight with a ton of mobs and a lot of red aoe CC as a GF? Now the GWF has no problem using it cause he is unstoppable, he doesnt care for CC or Blocking since the Tab takes care of both. So ,maybe WMS was designed to work with SB(more likely tho it is the Wicked Strike that is meant to work with SB while the WMS is used as alpha aoe debuff ) but you forgot the 3rd part of that equation which is Unstoppable. My first toon was a GWF and I ran as a SM for a long time but IV won it for me even if its just for the mobility and AE marking from TR.

Now, my first alt is a GF and IV seemed the best pick imo. The only real superiority of SM over IV for me is the 5sec dmg immunity since GFs generate AP very fast. I may be doing things very wrong btw since Im still learning to play the class but lets look at simple dungeons like the Gauntlgrym's FC and DC. My GF is IV Conq with 4000 defense and 8300 power, crit at 2500, armpen/rec at 2000, 1700 defelct and at around 30K HP. So far I have 3 different setups ( funny thing is my GWF has 1 setup - the pvp setup and that works great in pve too )anyways, one for solo PVE, another one for PVP and another one for party PVE. In groups I go tank mode so lets look at an easy FC where the party runs to the door aggroing the whole map. Immediately I aoe mark, pop ET, blow 5 critters away with FLS, pop IW and start blocking. Where do I fit the WMS swings when I'm primary target for at least 3 riders and 2 golems with heavy aoe CC ? I gotta block or else I'll be chain CCed to near death. At the same time I gotta reapply marks left and right, tab mark single powerful critters, maintain block etc. Like I said I may be doing it wrong but my GF party experience has been - aoe taunt, IW/block/SoS/FLS + an occasional at- will , rinse and repeat till huge mob of critters is dead. I dont see room for frequent At-will use that would make a WMS/SB combo really shine. You seem to think the SM is best for tanking but in reality in order to really use WMS+SB you gotta attack recklessly

xjosh19 · May 2014

For tanking this might be an issue but for DPS i actually have the solution for the equation, and its call Villain's Menace =D. As you said yourself GF generate AP very fast so i on Villance's Menace almost all the time during fights and when its gone if there are too many mobs i just block, Action surge gives me 10% more AP for each block, and repeat the process.

I also have to add that i working towards Fallen Dragon weapons because im going for a LifeSteal approach and so far is working quite well. I still believe there are some things that require further thinking involving the gear and stats distribution but will work on that next week when i finish my final exams

My current setup for dps GF SM is:

At-wills: Cleave and WMS
Passive: Combat Superiority and Steel Blitz, Steel Defense when neccesary.
Encounters: Lunging Strike, Enforced Threat, Anvil of Doom/Griffon's Wrath.
Dailys: Villain's Menace and Crescendo/Fighter's Recovery (Awesome with SD)/Terrafying Impact (Awesome when CW use singularity and heals you a lot due to Life steal)

I have Lesser Vorpal and Lesser Plague Fire but still deciding which one would be better and Lesser Soul Forge.

Here are some photos of my current build and Stone, and would love some help to get them optimize and some item suggestion and enchantments would be great too.

emilemo · May 2014

xjosh19 wrote: »

For tanking this might be an issue but for DPS i actually have the solution for the equation, and its call Villain's Menace =D. As you said yourself GF generate AP very fast so i on Villance's Menace almost all the time during fights and when its gone if there are too many mobs i just block, Action surge gives me 10% more AP for each block, and repeat the process.

I also have to add that i working towards Fallen Dragon weapons because im going for a LifeSteal approach and so far is working quite well. I still believe there are some things that require further thinking involving the gear and stats distribution but will work on that next week when i finish my final exams

My current setup for dps GF SM is:

At-wills: Cleave and WMS
Passive: Combat Superiority and Steel Blitz, Steel Defense when neccesary.
Encounters: Lunging Strike, Enforced Threat, Anvil of Doom/Griffon's Wrath.
Dailys: Villain's Menace and Crescendo/Fighter's Recovery (Awesome with SD)/Terrafying Impact (Awesome when CW use singularity and heals you a lot due to Life steal)

I have Lesser Vorpal and Lesser Plague Fire but still deciding which one would be better and Lesser Soul Forge.

Here are some photos of my current build and Stone, and would love some help to get them optimize and some item suggestion and enchantments would be great too.

VM is not Unstoppable tho, a very important part where you have increased DR is missing. Even if those Riders I used as examples dont cc you they still will hit you for half your HP bar and I dont see regular lifesteal healing that much back with just our slow At-will spam - keep in mind even under the effect of the awesome FR our at-wills dont heal that well if you are being targeted by 10+ mobs. Probably you will be able to make it work but you will sacrifice offensive stats to get there and it wont be even half as reliable as lifesteal on a GWF so I dont think its worth it for a GF to try to be a very subpar GWF. My own GWF has around 10% lifesteal + DR top boon and its enough to keep me full solo in IWD (in pvp gear) thanks to huge crits and fast attack speed - things a GF simply doesnt have.

xjosh19 · May 2014

I usually cover the heal part with encounters more than with at-wills due to slow animation on it. I don't try to be a sub-par GWF, of course i know a GWF does tons of damage BUT i want to play GF because it fits my play style and i like it a lot so i'm trying an approach that fits how this game works (DPS) and still be good for parties.

How do i have to sacrifice offensive stat to get there with lifesteal?

Think that VM dmg also gets affected for lifesteal and all our dmg increases in that mode increasing the life steal too. The damage resistance we already have it since we are naturally tanky and our armor gives us enough stats.

Finally any suggestion on the build part or how should my stats be for this kind of play style i want to keep going further with will be highly appreciated.

qutsemnie · May 2014

I never stand and trade in the red stuff from packs of trash. I will note that I said, "2) SMP does way more sustained damage with low DPS stats." There is subtle things wrapped up in there. 1) "low DPS". Implying that your DPS is so bad it really doesn't matter what you do when you are in a group. I pretty much go into group content with the mentality that my role isn't to kill mobs, it is to survive them, so other people don't have too. It is a little cheeky to use that as an out, but if I am walking away from mobs and not blocking, I don't fret my loss of damage.

My stats are much different than yours. I would go through FC with 52.2% damage resist and 37.7% dodge and 35k HP from base defense, but only 2118 power (4236 if I ran conq), crit 540, recovery 1320, arpen 150 (15% resistances ignored from a 25 dex), so with that build I am never going to have your experience of blowing away some trash with a FLS.

This has worked all the way up to the final bosses of 2.5 with a rainbow group of real life friends, but from 2.5 onward it has gotten a little dicey looking. Actually part of this was anticipating another shot at Dracolich in Castle Never. The mentality is: it doesn't matter who does what faster, if you can't even finish the game! Currently my friends and I are 3/4 on Castle Never. The question is what is it going to take to make us 4/4. We can have the slowest pulls in the world. I can feel gimpy walking at things instead of TRing to the bad guys, but if I can survive without Threatening Rush, and Steel Defense makes it possible to do what I could not before than that is better. If I can't find a recipe to make Dracolich possible in a rainbow group of friends then what is the point of any of this really?

To your question!

The door to doors in Gaunt's FC I have done, but I haven't been back since the change. I will say what I think should happen, and leave it at that. Because, frankly I don't entirely disagree with things you said. There will be cases where you cannot at-will as much as you want. We don't break the bank on stats, but my friends and I can do 5 in a half hour, so it is not like we are single pulling or held back much by what I am doing. I am sure other people can do 6. I doubt there are many that can do 7 because at some point the running becomes the silly part.

For gaunt's FC, I never stand and fight anything with a red circle under me except at the final boss or when the fight is basically over. I remember once we were in a tier 2 and my friend said, "Sorry I got hit I was out of stamina to dodge." I said in Skype, "You know what I do when the red circles under me? I walk. It is two steps." That is my cheeky comments about red circles.

I never bought SoS so I have very little incentive to stand and bang. Damage avoided is just damage avoided. I wasn't in the habit of using Fighter's Recovery when we were running gaunt every day(didn't even have 3 points in it before IWD), so I would pop off an AE Villian's Menance, and that gives me the luxury that if a red circle hit me I would walk out and not get chained. With the kind of defensive stats I pile on if I don't get chained I probablydon't die. Where I anticipate being annoyed in this switch is after I walked out of a red circle I usually TR to get back on the mob, but now I don't have that luxury and that is going to be annoying and potentially dangerous to people that want me to hold agro.

In FC I run Into the Fray, Enforced Threat, and Lunging Strike, I generally swap to Iron Warrior when things feel dire to me. In FC, we did a pickup without a cleric and the dps felt horrible. Fights were taking forever. I swapped to Iron Warrior to weather it. That happens infrequently, but it does happen. I will tell you that I got fantastic use out of Blood Raven Skull which is perfect for that first pull, and so routinely that it is worth a mention. I hit it almost 100% of the time. Which gives you a ginormous spike of HP when you are on the ropes and has bailed me out of more than one unavoided red stuff combo. Like you can go from 10% hp to 80% temp HP. Totally reset a fight. Then I would dodge red stuff while bouncing around with threatening rush occasionally popping a shield up.

Now I haven't been back since I made the change, but where I was anticipated liking Swordmaster in that spot was having the luxury to pop a Daily and get 5 seconds of immunity, and when we think about this the mentality isn't, "okay you don't have to block up for 5 seconds yeah.... whipppy... 5 seconds..." The mentality is one you got a daily up. You hold it until you need it and cycle back and forth from WMS and shield walking in and out of red stuff. Dub step my friend. Dub step. If you use it immediately it won't be valuable. If you use it to reset the fight with a 5 second grace period. It is pretty strong. Even if you don't use Fighter's Recovery. If you use it Villian's Menace in addition to bonus damage and AE, you get +5 seconds of immunity to mob damage, and 5 seconds of immunity to CC. It is going to help.

Will it be better than Threatening Rushing from mob to mob? Either way I am not standing in the red stuff

That I know!

Now editorial. Part of your post was basically a comparison to GWF. I don't alts in MMOs. I don't roll new characters. I go straight as deep into 1 character as far as possible. Is a GWF better? Maybe I couldn't tell you, but I am going to make a GF work where it is possible to make it work, and this was an initial impression. This is what I play with my friends.

ripyourlipsoff · May 2014

I play Swordmaster, i don't pve other then quests and dailys!

If they made Tide of Iron mark multiple targets for SM it would be great!

Guardian Fighter - Swordmaster

Comments