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GF as the melee version of CWs
lococatt91
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 162 Bounty Hunter
I believe a rework of GF abilities would make a GF able to get agro on large grps of mobs, hold agro and most importantly survive long enough for your party to kill them off. In other words a true tank class.
The primary change is to the blocking mechanic. Currently its clunky and ineffective to use. Block would work off of deflection with deflection severity being 100%, representing your shield blocking the attack. Your shift ability will become a dodge similar to a DC, where you leap out of the way.
The other major change would be to the tab ability, instead of marking it would now be more like the GWF unstoppable. Damage would build a determination bar. This new ability would grant the GF 20% damage resist, 20% deflection (block chance), temp health and a small damage reflection say 3%. The damage reflected would be in a small AE around the GF and cause high threat. (notice this does not make you cc immune but a block would prevent the cc effect)
There are some abilities that would change as well to work with this new mechanic.
Any feats and class abilities that add block would increase deflection chance. So the shield class ability would add 9% to deflection. There are some feats, mainly in protector tree, that also would add to deflection chance.
I think the GF should start with a base class ability of 20% deflection.
Cleave should have an 180deg arc and a bit more range.
Marks can be applied through threatening rush, and certain encounter abilities. However the mark is applied it lasts 15sec.
The capstone feat of the protectors tree would change to 3% damage reflection in small AE of GF causing high threat. Build determination while in combat. 10% increase deflection(block chance)
Encounter skills
Several encounter abilities should be designed to increase block and buff the party.
Into the fray - adds 10% to deflection(block chance), taunts all mobs in an AE around the GF, gives the other group buffs in its current form.
Iron warrior - taunts all mobs in an AE around GF, give temp HP to party, adds 10% to deflection and gives GF a 2% damage reflect that effects all mobs in a small AE around GF causing high threat.
Enforced threat - damages and taunts all mobs (no limit) in a large AE around the GF (singularity size). All mobs hit are marked for 15sec and for every mob hit the GF gains 1% deflection.
There are other abilities but i think you all get the point. The key is these abilities dont cause alot of damage, they all should buff the party, increase survivability through block and gather and hold agro on mobs.
If you are loading tanking encounters a GF should have high survivablity and agro control but be doing low damage. You can achieve very high block chances but need your party to kill the mobs off.
In pvp the GF could load the typical lunging, bull, frontline and do about the same dps. If they go all defensive they may be hard to kill and good at holding a point but their damage would not be a threat. Meaning they will not be unstoppable juggernauts like we have seen in GWFs.
In pve quests and dailies a GF could load frontline, lunging and enforced threat to have a balance of dps and defense.
In dungeons the GF will act like a melee CW. Able to get agro on large grps of mobs and maintain threat through encounter abilities and the tab class ability. Holding mobs attention so the GFs party can kill them off.
The primary change is to the blocking mechanic. Currently its clunky and ineffective to use. Block would work off of deflection with deflection severity being 100%, representing your shield blocking the attack. Your shift ability will become a dodge similar to a DC, where you leap out of the way.
The other major change would be to the tab ability, instead of marking it would now be more like the GWF unstoppable. Damage would build a determination bar. This new ability would grant the GF 20% damage resist, 20% deflection (block chance), temp health and a small damage reflection say 3%. The damage reflected would be in a small AE around the GF and cause high threat. (notice this does not make you cc immune but a block would prevent the cc effect)
There are some abilities that would change as well to work with this new mechanic.
Any feats and class abilities that add block would increase deflection chance. So the shield class ability would add 9% to deflection. There are some feats, mainly in protector tree, that also would add to deflection chance.
I think the GF should start with a base class ability of 20% deflection.
Cleave should have an 180deg arc and a bit more range.
Marks can be applied through threatening rush, and certain encounter abilities. However the mark is applied it lasts 15sec.
The capstone feat of the protectors tree would change to 3% damage reflection in small AE of GF causing high threat. Build determination while in combat. 10% increase deflection(block chance)
Encounter skills
Several encounter abilities should be designed to increase block and buff the party.
Into the fray - adds 10% to deflection(block chance), taunts all mobs in an AE around the GF, gives the other group buffs in its current form.
Iron warrior - taunts all mobs in an AE around GF, give temp HP to party, adds 10% to deflection and gives GF a 2% damage reflect that effects all mobs in a small AE around GF causing high threat.
Enforced threat - damages and taunts all mobs (no limit) in a large AE around the GF (singularity size). All mobs hit are marked for 15sec and for every mob hit the GF gains 1% deflection.
There are other abilities but i think you all get the point. The key is these abilities dont cause alot of damage, they all should buff the party, increase survivability through block and gather and hold agro on mobs.
If you are loading tanking encounters a GF should have high survivablity and agro control but be doing low damage. You can achieve very high block chances but need your party to kill the mobs off.
In pvp the GF could load the typical lunging, bull, frontline and do about the same dps. If they go all defensive they may be hard to kill and good at holding a point but their damage would not be a threat. Meaning they will not be unstoppable juggernauts like we have seen in GWFs.
In pve quests and dailies a GF could load frontline, lunging and enforced threat to have a balance of dps and defense.
In dungeons the GF will act like a melee CW. Able to get agro on large grps of mobs and maintain threat through encounter abilities and the tab class ability. Holding mobs attention so the GFs party can kill them off.
Post edited by lococatt91 on
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EDIT: I would like if Marked targets took damage over time, or marked targets return xx amount of hp during the duration!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I don't think so, GWF get so much ARP they practically hit me like i am wearing a layer of saran wrap! I even specced into protection Armored of Bahamut, Shield Defense, and Plate Agility giving me 5 more AC and more deflection and better guard break mitigation and it seemed no difference.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
There's actually no arpen on any of the GWF tier 1 or tier 2 pvp armor and most guys that rock sentinel have (if they're lucky) about 1000 arpen.
Almost certainly what's getting you is that they're all using student of the sword and stacking crit - which they seem to have a higher base crit % than GF's by a lot. I believe this is getting nerfed in the upcoming patch.
I don't and will NOT play a GWF, so i am not sure exactly I just see them hit players 4 times and there dead or hit me 8 times and I am about to die. They have something, and GFs get virtually no crit whatsoever 3% if feated. We are the ONLY class in the game that cannot raise crit chance with primary stats!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Debuffs and ArmP would only effect the damage you were unable to "block".
So for example if your GF went full defensive and had a block chance of 80%, your GF would only take damage from 2 out of 10 attacks, BUT, your not going to be able to kill anyone.
More likely a GF in pvp would use a hybrid build, good defense with some offense.
The OP is mostly concerned with PVE and the changes would not effect pvp much if at all.
I d say it could be much simplier:
-block TIME based , not hit count based
-block interrupt animations properly, like every other shift key skill (generally, make it more reliable)
-DEX add some crit
-all marks DoT damage
TAB feature should be like the CW's TAB feature. We can slot whatever power we want in there and when slotted they work in a different manner. Into the Fray, for example, when slotted into TAB will not only increase run speed and AP gain, but will also make the GF damage immune for its duration. Knight's Challenge could be used in the TAB feature as well for when a GF needs to do strategic pulling of an elite.
I agree with the OP, Cleave needs a 180 degree arc and it also needs to be sped up. That alone will improve our damage if we just hit more things and faster. The full 3-part Cleave animation already swings across an area greater than 180 degrees, so there is no reason why it cannot hit multiple targets. In fact, most of the cast times on our powers need to be sped up; Enforced Threat & Villain's Menace are stupidly slow and can get us into trouble.
The devs havs said that they will take a long, hard look at the GF and the next Mod is due in August, so there is time to implement serious changes. Also, they have neglected the GF for some time (Swordmaster paragon and nerfing two T1 sets were not improvements), so they should have no excuses in implementing sweeping changes to the GF. The current content is not tank-friendly and it would be better to overhaul one class than overhaul 6 - 10 dungeons so they become tank-friendly.
That would be incredible! Maybe make slotted powers have to be a team buff or personal buff only as to not make them op in pvp, but have the versatility to tab my target and boost my party without losing an encounter spot would be remarkable.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
That is the tricky part. As lacking as the GF is in certain areas it would also be very easy to turn it into an OP monster, so they'd have to be careful with any changes. Most of our woes can be rectified fairly quickly though. Better guard, AOE Cleave, plus doing things faster and we're already halfway there.
Another option would be to give us a fixed party buff. Like the TR offers Critical Teamwork, the GF can offer a constant, party-wide damage mitigation buff. This buff can be based on your defense stat, rewarding players for actually running around with 4000+ defense. Maybe a 1% damage resistance buff for every 1000 defense the GF has? Example; If your GF has 3000 defense (DPS-orientated) your party buff would be 3% damage resistance to every other person in your party. Stack 5000 defense, which right now is stupid for a PVE GF, and your buff is up to 5% across the party.
And I know you have stressed this before, but I'd like them to look at our armour sets. Maybe try and work offensive stats into one of our armour sets. Give us a set that gives crit and/or armour penetration while sacrificing power. The GWF has full blown tank sets (Imposing/Titan) as well as full blown DPS sets (Berserker/Avatar). Our sets are all heavily on the defensive side, even Timeless. I'd gladly lose 100 - 150 power on my Timeless gear in order to get crit or arpen.
The dungeon designs are the actual reasons why GFs and TRs are marginalised. IF dungeons had less trash and more elites that hit harder and can't be CC'd the GF as it is would be in high demand. But dungeons are not like that. You have 50 million minions and 1 elite. The minions can be CC'd and burned to death in seconds by a DC/GWF/CW triple threat. And in the process of shredding the minions the elite is killed as well.
For this reason it would be easier to revamp one class than rework multiple dungeons. Starting from Mod 4 they should implement dungeons that have more harder hitting and CC-immune enemies, but it is too late now to rework the original dungeons. Heck, many of those dungeons are still getting their bugs fixed, so reworking their mechanics ain't gonna happen if one can still ninja their way around most of them.
It is not nerfed, nothing they have gets nerfed. All GWF's stack insane Armor Pen on their gear, it is their money stat as they have to put basically nothing into crit for 30+% chance, that gets better the more they hit you. The GF needs some SERIOUS buffs to be worth any kind of anything in pvp
If it was 15-25% damage resistance it would be useful. a %5 damage buff is nothing. Heck, just go tact and mark people in pvp for 10% less damage, and you have a 10% damage debuff right there. The fact isn't that we don't have good moves or abilities. It is that they don't do enough to matter. Our feats are awsome! But they are like 1% here, 2% here, whereas the GWF's and HR's get 20-30% here, and 10-20% there. That is the difference. Our feats suck. If the marked target was a 20% damage debuff, maybe even 25%, and the tide of iron debuff wasn't just less damage dealt to you, but to everyone, you could have a debuffing machine at mid to park with a cleric and a gwf, while HR's or TR's ... well HR's now at the corners since no one can beat the good ones besides another HR. But that won't happen.
I would also argue the good abilities are so far apart and do not synergize well as you are always giving up this for that or otherwise! It would be prudent to give some useful abilities sooner so we can build better class like GWFs get tons of good stuff easily.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Is trading power for crit while wearing Timeless a typo? Timeless is already kind of awkward in Module 3 because it pushes so deep into the "power > crit" range at full stacks unless you have incredible amounts of power in the first place or no crit at all to start with. You either have to itemize your crit gear around full stacks in which case you are not optimally itemized if you are missing those stacks, or you have to itemize your crit gear around no or low stacks in which case you are not optimally itemized if you have full stacks. I suspect most people that religiously use timeless would chose to use low crit and itemize for power, and depend upon the the timeless proc to reach the power > crit threshold, but there are no perfect answers now with that item set. Personally I don't religiously use it, so I don't worry about it much.
Refer to:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?660121-module-3-Crit-vs-Power-(Revisited)
I don't know about that toggle. However, if it's optional then I think some people would like it. But I prefer holding Left+Ctrl to guard.
Great short list of changes that could go a long way if implemented. This can be the fix for GFs.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
No, it wasn't a typo. I didn't imply only crit though, crit OR arpen in place of a little less power. That would create an outright DPS alternative that wasn't so heavily reliant on neck/ring/belt itemisation.
Right now I wear blue rings and belt along with Timeless in order to reach a decent base crit stat (1500/1600) and sufficient arpen (2200). My augment Stone alone accounts for 1100 of my 2200 armour penetration. It would be nearly impossible for a player without a Stone to build a DPS GF because the gear doesn't offer that alternative. Sure, the Timeless bonus could push you into that zone but it will require that you go through a full rotation to reach what I can do off of my opening attack.
The other alternative is the hybrid gear route, 2x High General/2x Valiant Warrior.
Fair enough. Just thinking of things to make us a little smoother. The game is too fast-paced for a clunky tank.
Just trying to stay away from numbers that would be nerfed again in a month after QQ threads show up. A GF sitting at mid with a 15-25% DR buff along with an Anointed Champion will cause some serious outrage.