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How to 'fix' PVP in 5 easy steps!
janus408
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 60
1) ELO Adjustment. Make ELO a visible stat, like GS. You always gain ELO for a win, you can never lose ELO for a victory (as you currently can). More ELO is won as a full premade versus queuing with 2-4 players in a group.
2) Diminishing returns on CC. And a lockout/immunity. After 2-3x of any control effect, players should gain immunity to CC for a few seconds (increased by tenacity). My main is a GWF, let's just get that out there, and the current state of PVP (prone chains to win) is not fun on any side (proner or pronee). It removes a level of strategy when stacking any one class gives you a leg up. This is not to say that GWFx3 / GFx2 groups are unbeatable, I have beaten plenty with rainbow comps (namely HR, GWF, DC, CW, TR) -- but allowing 3-4 of any class to completely lock a single player out from 100%-0% no matter what their skill, class, gearing, playerstyle, build, etc is just insane and takes away from any kind of dynamic PVP. After 3 CC's of the same type (ie prone and HR entangle or CW entangle are different types and do not add up to the 3, but stacking 2-3 GWF/GFs rolling prones would) a player is immune to CC for 4 seconds (increased by tenacity // .1s per 100) and 90% of the complaints about PVP are gone.
3) Players that are not visible cannot capture or contest any domination point. Perma rogues detract from enjoyable PVP. There are several perma rogues in my guild that can contest a capture node vs 2 people nearly all match. It is annoying to face something you cannot see, for all classes, and with the proper build, playstyle, and gear (namely bilethorn) they can do significant damage. Surely there is another role the TR class can fill other than the one it currently inhabits. And there is a reason the leaderboard's frontpage is now dominated by TRs. Perma rogues can destroy whole groups of PUGs in domination.
4) Create a separate (optional) queue for 5/5 premades. You have to have 5 people in your group to queue for it. Gives bonus ELO, Glory and some RAD/Gold for wins (small amount, 1k RAD and/or 50 silver per win) to encourage players to find 5 people and face only other full groups. So what if the queue is longer for this, it would be an option. You can join the normal domination queue for a quick match vs probably some random PUGs, or queue for the premade section, wait a bit longer, but have a challenging game and get a bonus for it. Especially since typical games are 45-80minutes between two good premades. There should be incentive to queue with a full 5 when currently we are incentivized for queues of 2-3 players.
5) New maps. For the love of God, we need some new maps. I have been playing since BETA, and we have the same two maps. If you don't want to make them, that's fine, allow players to make them but only for the preview shard. Other players can then rate them, and once they reach a certain rating some MODs check them out, give them the ok, and put them on live. You have options here, we need new gameplay. Openworld is fun, but Domination is still the bread and butter of PVP in this game. I am not even asking for a new gametype, I know that is too much to ask, just new maps.
2) Diminishing returns on CC. And a lockout/immunity. After 2-3x of any control effect, players should gain immunity to CC for a few seconds (increased by tenacity). My main is a GWF, let's just get that out there, and the current state of PVP (prone chains to win) is not fun on any side (proner or pronee). It removes a level of strategy when stacking any one class gives you a leg up. This is not to say that GWFx3 / GFx2 groups are unbeatable, I have beaten plenty with rainbow comps (namely HR, GWF, DC, CW, TR) -- but allowing 3-4 of any class to completely lock a single player out from 100%-0% no matter what their skill, class, gearing, playerstyle, build, etc is just insane and takes away from any kind of dynamic PVP. After 3 CC's of the same type (ie prone and HR entangle or CW entangle are different types and do not add up to the 3, but stacking 2-3 GWF/GFs rolling prones would) a player is immune to CC for 4 seconds (increased by tenacity // .1s per 100) and 90% of the complaints about PVP are gone.
3) Players that are not visible cannot capture or contest any domination point. Perma rogues detract from enjoyable PVP. There are several perma rogues in my guild that can contest a capture node vs 2 people nearly all match. It is annoying to face something you cannot see, for all classes, and with the proper build, playstyle, and gear (namely bilethorn) they can do significant damage. Surely there is another role the TR class can fill other than the one it currently inhabits. And there is a reason the leaderboard's frontpage is now dominated by TRs. Perma rogues can destroy whole groups of PUGs in domination.
4) Create a separate (optional) queue for 5/5 premades. You have to have 5 people in your group to queue for it. Gives bonus ELO, Glory and some RAD/Gold for wins (small amount, 1k RAD and/or 50 silver per win) to encourage players to find 5 people and face only other full groups. So what if the queue is longer for this, it would be an option. You can join the normal domination queue for a quick match vs probably some random PUGs, or queue for the premade section, wait a bit longer, but have a challenging game and get a bonus for it. Especially since typical games are 45-80minutes between two good premades. There should be incentive to queue with a full 5 when currently we are incentivized for queues of 2-3 players.
5) New maps. For the love of God, we need some new maps. I have been playing since BETA, and we have the same two maps. If you don't want to make them, that's fine, allow players to make them but only for the preview shard. Other players can then rate them, and once they reach a certain rating some MODs check them out, give them the ok, and put them on live. You have options here, we need new gameplay. Openworld is fun, but Domination is still the bread and butter of PVP in this game. I am not even asking for a new gametype, I know that is too much to ask, just new maps.
Post edited by janus408 on
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Comments
2. I agree. Tenacity should have stopped the CC chain fights but now I feel, as I voiced out before the patch went live, that all it did was make a haves and have nots in PvP in regards to Tenacity. Those with Tenacity get CC'ed less or for less time (whatever) while those without just get pummeled. CC chains should aid fights, not define them.
3. The Bilethorn is beyond infuriating. I have been both on teams and against teams which were, indeed, wiped out by a single rogue running around with perfect bilethorn. I don't know what the solution is for permastealth itself, as I don't think it should be completely crippled, but the way it interacts with perfect bilethorn needs to be looked into.
4. This is something the developers have touched on somewhat recently. Not planned to be done currently but something they may do in the future.
5. I really don't get this. League of Legends is a full on PvP Game built for 100% PvP. After four years it has four maps. For the first two years it only had two maps. Neverwinter has been out for less than one year and has three maps and two Open World Zones. Why does Neverwinter need a bunch of PvP Maps? It just doesn't make sense.
Look at other full PvP games and they have realized the same thing: less is more.
Players have been screaming about how there aren't enough maps to PvP in from day one. You don't need more maps than the PvE's have dungeons.
LoL is a MOBA, not an MMO... so enough said there.
2 maps is NOT a lot sir.. NOT. If you only had 2 PvE dungeons would you be upset? Yes you would.
Try and open your mind a little or just DO NOT POST in PvP threads, you obviously do not like PvP and want nothing to do with it, so stay away please, we in turn will stay away from your RP/PvE threads.
Thanks!
Roar.
And Neverwinter's PvP is...Mulitplayer Online Battle Arena...
"Enough Said There?"
We have 3 full on PvP Maps and 2 Open World Zones. That's more than the Moba which actually is 100% developing for PvP in one year compared to the Moba's four years.
Roar?
the logic is weak with this one. why do you "deserve" to lose a ranking when you win matches in a very 1-sided way, its not like people can choose whom they fight, its not their fault its plagued with freaking weaksauces with 8k gs.
For example, let's say that if we do not let TRs cap points while in stealth, then we also do not let GWFs cap points while unstoppable or let GFs cap points while blocking. Obviously, the last two changes don't make sense, as they are class features. For the same reason, I claim that the original option falls under the same category.
The difference between stealth, unstoppable, and guard seems to be that stealth can be maintained for much longer (in fact, indefinitely if BnS is slotted). Therefore, I think the core of the problem is the length of time it can be sustained, not the fact that points can be contested while stealthed. Hence, I also feel that solutions to permastealth ought to target its sustainability.
Anyways, while I have ideas in mind, I obviously do not know the best way to accomplish that, and as this thread isn't about that, I digress. I hope my two cents on the issue has shed some insight on the problem.
Winter: CW Chain Chill build -- I'm not good at it.
Aella: HR Theoretical ADC build -- There's a reason I'm on page 2000.
I cannot believe this is coming out of the mouth of someone with any authority when it comes to this game. So we cannot be trusted to know how the system works, or ask for a more transparent system, when you don't seem to know HOW IT IS FUNCTIONING, because that is DIFFERENT than how it was designed. "The system was designed well people, it will work eventually even though all of you are noticing it is not working properly right now, both through anecdotal evidence and through actual testing. We don't feel you deserve to know how it actually works because you are questioning it though." -You? Please, for the love of God, tell me this isn't the actual stance you are taking?
What I proposed was a way to stop the CC chains, what tenacity did was lessen the distance of trains, not stop them. 2x GWFs running Knockdown/FLS can keep a single target prone from 100%-dead whether they have 1,400 tenacity (like I do) or 0.
You completely missed the issue at hand. The synergy between Bilethorn and perma rogues is fine. I don't have issue there. I have issue with an invisible player capturing and holding a point 24/7 against 2-3 pug's and sometimes 1-2 premade players the. entire. match. With Waters/proper Regen/Health potion/properly timing rotations, a TR can stay alive and keep a point contested nearly indefinitely. You grazed over the part about this player you cannot see actually capturing or contesting a node. You should have to be visible to do so, as is the case with 99.9% of other games similar to this.
It could so easily be added there really is no reason not to. I cannot think of one. Even if it is added and never used, it would take all of 1 person to code this. Just do it and don't look back, there is nothing to lose.
Jesus.
Players can make these. They are so simple they can be made in the foundry. I bet if you put 2 Devs on it for a week they could make 2-3 each. My brother is an amateur and he could make 1 in a week. Easily.
GG does not count as a domination map. So there are only 2.
The open world zones are nothing. It does not count as normal PVP because it isn't something you can reliably do. It is never a fair fight 5v5 or 20v20.
Less is not more when it is 2 years in and those of us that play solely for Domination are playing the same 2 maps over and over, knowing that the creation of a third, or forth or fifth would take an intern less than a week to create. Or if you opened it up to the Foundry you would have 50 before the first weekend was over.
There are currently 16 level 60 dungeons. There are 2 domination maps.
To create dungeons, which are (let me just guestimate based on nothing here) 40 times larger than domination maps, you have to design NPCs, place them, make events on bosses, etc etc etc. The amount of work invested to make one dungeon is probably 40x the work for one domination map.
We aren't asking for 14 new domination maps. 2 would make me ecstatic. 1 would make me happy. But if people have been "screaming about how there aren't enough maps to PvP in from day one" maybe it would be smart to listen to your player base, now over a year on, before telling us what we do and don't need in a game we play by choice in a market increasingly saturated with other games.
I am sorry to call you out, but your response basically telling me what I do and don't want, telling me that I don't deserve the information behind a system I and many others see as malfunctioning because you think I am plugging my ears at what you are saying like a child, is beyond disrespectful.
And Hey Enemy Team. I miss playing 5v5 against you guys. Shame this PVP system doesn't work like it use to, where I would get decent games vs you at least a couple times a night.
Seriously, Going back to this:
I understand you have a grasp on how the ELO system is suppose to work, but have you taken time to think that maybe it isn't functioning as intended?
Instead of lambasting us as arrogant or immature kids that wont listen to how it is suppose to work, maybe listen to our concern that maybe how it is currently working is not how you intended/designed it to work? Because there can be a major difference between the two.
It seems like you too are missing the point. TRs cant be damaged while stealth because they cannot be seen. Yes you can throw some AOEs, if you have them, to try and get lucky and spot them. A GWF that is unstoppable or GFs that are blocking can be seen, and thus damaged or dealt with. My issue is that rogues cannot even be seen and can distract far longer than is balanced.
No. We are not choosing to go pugstomping. What you guys that get stomped by premades don't realize is that we want to fight fair fights that are 5v5 premades (most of us anyway). We don't want to fight these groups we hammer 1,000-0. And when we lose ELO by doing so, it keeps us down in the ELO system, or worse moving backwards, when we need to set out ahead of the 8kgs pack to other 17kgs 5 man groups so we can get our even matches back.
We. Don't. Want. To. Pug. Stomp. And yet it isn't up to us, and we are punished for doing something we have no control over.
You might not like it, but rewarding us for it will place us out of your match window, so you don't face it anymore. Which is what happened pre-Mod3.
There are 2 domination maps and a 20v20 that is completely stacked and adverse to real matchups because you can only 5man queue and cant get a whole 20man team in there. Plus it is once ever 3 hours. So it is an event, not pvp.
And have you tried doing openworld pvp? Really tried. It doesn't count. It is a PVE area with an arena in the corner no one wants to fight in. Or if there is it is 10v1 or 20v2 or some other super-stacked matchup.
And it is not consistent.
THE CURRENT STATE OF PVP IN NEVERWINTER: 2 Domination maps.
If you argue anything else you out yourself as someone that doesn't PVP.
1) Definitely.
2) Its not for first time I see this idea here and I agree with that. Its working in other mmos, why not in NW?
3) Only if will get TR boost for encounter powers.
4) Yep. + if you will be in top ~5% at end of season you can get unique PvP title, weapon / armor skins, etc. as reward.
5) Not just maps but game modes, CTA & team DM would be great.
Agreed. As long as there is a viable way to play the TR after this change it needs to happen.
I was trying to make the change as simple as possible while having the largest impact on pvp play possible. I would love season end rewards, but it would take a lot of time, vs just adding this premade only queue, so I figured I would ask for the small thing that should be easy to do, in hopes of getting it.
Again, asking for just maps because it is pants-on-head-HAMSTER easy to accomplish. New gametypes, man I would love CTF, would be amazing but it would take them far too long to create.
This is why you should get 0 elo rating for that match, but not negate.
Edit: And that newbie team what lost against higher ranked team should get too 0 elo.
do not reply to this mod note. send me a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
2) Its not for first time I see this idea here and I agree with that. Its working in other mmos, why not in NW?
3) Only if will get TR boost for encounter powers.
4) Yep. + if you will be in top ~5% at end of season you can get unique PvP title, weapon / armor skins, etc. as reward.
5) Not just maps but game modes, CTA & team DM would be great.
(с)znudenej
You're wrong, pug stomping will usually drop in rank both loser and winner teams. There's no encouragement, pug get nothing, 0 glory, 0 pleasure of gameplay, only lost time and dropped rank, and premade gets lost rank and time.
Also, on a side unrelated note, an opinion, if it is to be respected, needs to be qualified. If I come to an NBA game, I usually stay quiet and don't involve myself with my husbands friends discussing LeBron 3 pointing ability or something, cause I don't know much about it. If I would, my opinion would get put down in a second, cause I have no experience and no right to try and look like I actually know something.
Actually that is how ELO system works.
-You get points for standing up to a stronger opponent, but you will lose a huge amount if you flatten an opponent way below your rank.
Thats not true, if you have high rating and you are standing against low rating team you should get 0 rating points for that match if you win and that low rating team what lost should get too 0 rating points. But here both teams will get in that situation - elo rating points and thats wrong.
Sorry if there was misunderstanding, english is not my native...
What if in exchange of erasing our class we are given a 8k gwf back? (if you take out stealth that's how much our tr's are worth in the end, thank you, mod3)
Stop complaining about trs and their steath...without stealth they would be by far the squishiest class in the game with the worst cc and dmg.
The only problem with Tr's stealthbuild is the fact that casual Pugs have now clue how to deal with it, which ends up in 4 pugs staying on 1 node trying to kill an tr.
Y like it's hard to let one gf using frontline surge or a hr using his wide range close & range combat rotations or letting a dc doting the tr and pushing him off the node or having a cw using aoe skills or having a gfw using it's roar and using his sprint to reach the tr and own him in 1 rotation . And all this w/o mentioning the Lantern or various other aoe effects that can get stealth off a tr .
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
I think a little mix of all this.
TR's want more dmg for less stealth, I can ask why I as HR cannot use my range at-wills as GWF against TR who is in stealth ? Fair ? There is many "why not this" and as much ppl said there is a problem and to be "fair" for all us, Cryptic must do something.
This is exactly where I stand with PvP. 1v1 class balance is just so unattainable that it seems futile for the devs to pursue it. What we need is more game modes.
We need game modes that pushes this game away from 1v1 battles of skill (aka class imbalances and OP gear) and towards randomness. Open World PvP has done this a little bit. Unfortunately, this is the worst time to be asking for PvP additions as we are only weeks into what is considered a PvP Module.
One way to achieve this randomness in the mean time would be to make a moshpit-type of Arena so that if a party of 4 GWF and 1 DC, all halflings and all in maxed out gear queue for PvP, they get matched with 5 other players and split up into more balanced teams.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
OMG no.... Ouch my head owwwwcccchhh!
League also has 119 different heroes, Neverwinter has how many? Oh right, 6. Do you know why League has so many more heroes than Neverwinter? Because that's the entire point. In games like League the variety isn't in the content, the maps, the different things to do, instead it focuses on using different heroes and powers and combinations to create varied gameplay.
Now let's focus on Neverwinter. In Neverwinter most people will use 1-2 different heroes and spend all their time on the same heroes day in and day out, there isn't the same variety in using a monk one day then using a pyro mage the next. Instead, MMOs such as Neverwinter focus more on content directed towards a single character. You don't play one map or one mode, you play multiple. A player will do some dungeons one day, a skirmish, a campaign, then a pvp match or two and so forth.
What does all this have to do with PvP maps? Since you so wonderfully gave me League, lets take a look.
How many different combinations can you have in League on one map in terms of classes? 119 classes in a team of 5
How many different combinations can you have in Neverwinter on one map in terms of classes? 6 classes in a team of 5
Before even doing the math you can realize that in Neverwinter there's a very limited pool of heroes to make different teams, and will need duplicates of heroes before too long.
Every game needs some level of variety, in the end after 50 matches, 100 matches, maybe 150, or 200, or maybe even more, you will start to find Neverwinter PvP very repetitive. Why? People will be using very similar teams with very similar powers, you'll be playing on 2 maps over and over again, and eventually the average person will get bored. If they didn't get bored then there wouldn't even be a continuous demand for new maps and game modes.
TL;DR - Don't compare two completely different games in an argument when you're looking at just one area instead of the whole picture.
Maybe you should actually reply to his entire quote instead of just being snide.
Would you find it fun if the game had 2 Dungeons and never had anymore because "other games do this" ?
Ontop of that, the open world Pvp isn't balanced in the slightest, and is usually just a 10v1 with people being farmed for the pvp campaign or blackice by guilds. Which again, they're plenty of threads complaining about that as well as the lack of pvp content.
Then maybe they should finally take the hint and add more maps.
Also, theyre more than 2 Dungeons in this game, and pvp has only 2 maps so...."they" don't have more maps than pve has dungeons.
Also, you don't get to decide if pve or pvp should have more maps, they're both part of the game, it isnt a competition. Unless you want to make it another "PvE players vs PvP players" deal, because we don't have enough issues with that already now do we.