Countering Perma-Stealth Rogues

crazymikee · May 2014

Welcome to my first guide made about Neverwinter! Today I'm going to use my "limited" experience with Trickster Rogues to come up with a few helpful tips, setups, and other advice for countering their permanent stealth build. This guide won't focus on any specific type of CW build, just a general explanation of their rotation and a few ways that ANY CW can effectively cancel or even make it impossible for a Rogue to do his rotation.

The Problem:

Perma-Stealth rogues currently have a very effective rotation to counter ranged based classes, that being CW,HR, DC, and occasionally even other TRs), their rotation / abilities usually consists of the following:

-Bait and Switch; Refils their stealth bar while creating a shadow copy of them which can occasionally be targeted instead of the TR if your not paying attention.

Tenacious Concealment; Reduces stealth loss from damage by 90% (this is probably one of the best class features to counter this guide, which will make our job that much harder)

Impossible to Catch; 100% Deflection chance, either like 99% or 100% CC immunity (lets just say 100% because you will NOT be able to control them even if the tooltip says otherwise)

Shadow Strike; 100% chance to refil the stealth bar when used on someone "even if they dodge"(their most valuable attack)

Path of Blades; AoE blades attack with a radius of about 20' (Forget exact) Good ability to use to avoid being close to the TR but does insane amount of damage if you stay inside its radius for the full 10 seconds.

The Rotation:

TR's will usually start with simply cast path of blades and then cloak, stacking damage with the aoe blades and then spamming their throwing knives until their stealth begins to dwindle. at this time your around 1/4 hitpoints gone, and wasted about 1-2 of your blinks to try and reduce the damage. Always save atleast one or two dodges incase the rogue is using higher damage attacks. when the rogue is about to uncloak, it will either use shadow strike or bait and switch if it has it slotted. Many skilled permas like to use shadow strike as their last stealth refil because it can have a much lower recharge time if they have recovery stacked. once their stealth is completly drained, they will cast impossible to catch to negate any damage you do and to make sure you cant CC them into submission. (that comes later) after their impossible to catch wears off, they will use one or even both of their dodges to keep their CC immunity, at this time their shadow strike will have refilled, and maybe their path of blades aswell. they will recloak and continue the process until you are either dead or you can escape. (unlikely because rogues have a stupid amount of speed bonus cloaked or otherwise. xD

The Solution:

(Going out with some friends in like 5 minutes so I'll be brief)

Once the Rogue has finished it's first stealth rotation, he would have pulled ITC to get out of stealth at the last second to leave no way for you to CC him. once he puts on ITC you have to keep trying to stay away from him, this is the time that he will be trying to move in to use Duelist's Flurry to drain a massive amount of your hitpoints, and add even more CC immunity. (the attack gives CC immunity after then 2nd hit "ROFL") as he is trying to DF you, you can stack either double RoE (if mastery) and conduit, because he is going to recloak very soon. The point of getting this damage in as late as possible is that even though he might have deflected the damage with ITC, once hes cloaked any type of damage reduces the cloak timer by the same amount. (Don't quote me on that it's purely from my experience) So if you have both of those casted on him just as he cloaks, he will be uncloaked within a few seconds, giving you time to either root him with Ice Rays, or try your luck with choke (bugs out too many times to be a viable choice for me personally) then after he is immobilized you can throw a chill strike at him, which is sure to hit an easy 3-8k depending if its a crit or not (also if it's not deflected lol), by this time your DoT attacks, Conduit and atleast one RoE will be refreshed, and once you have those casted on him, he will either run scared knowing that you know what your doing, or he will try and get recloaked as fast as possible, which is his downfall because the DoT drains his cloak faster then he can refil it, essentially breaking his rotation and making it impossible for him to perma rogue you.

Typed in like 5 minutes if anything is inaccurate pls don't sue me. (I tried my best with literally no extra sources besides my "decent" PvP experience on this game. Cya later boys

crazymikee · May 2014

youtube vid of me countering permas (or trying to) if i ever get yt to record neverwinter with decent fps

pzg33 · May 2014

if the rogue is geared or at least somewaht good, none of that will work. bad class mechs are bad

crazymikee · May 2014

pzg33 wrote: »

if the rogue is geared or at least somewaht good, none of that will work. bad class mechs are bad

works for me a majority of the time

nerhesi · May 2014

Because the rogue is bad. You can't assume the rogue is going to fall for HAMSTER

pantamime · May 2014

The best way to counter them is to hit them while they are in stealth. Since you can't touch them while they are out of stealth ITC mode. Seems pretty obvious right? You know where they are going to be when they are stealthed, near you... definitely within 25 feet of you.
The thing with really countering them is it takes specific spells that aren't great versus other classes.

This goes with out saying, but keep an eye open for a rogue pulling his Jesus Christ pose to start off PotB before he stealths. This is crucial, if you catch in this moment, it is his weakest. He is literally just standing there arms wide open and beggin for a choke > burn > push. Usually this makes them run and wait for their PotB to be ready if they don't feel the need to stand on the point.

This is more for MoF CW's as I have switch over this last month after being SS forever. Needed something new you know? But all of it can be used by SS mages, I just like the procing of all crit smolders from the arcane spells more than sometimes zapping - both are good but to deal with what is difficult(GWF,TR,HR) I am finding DoTs are much better - since you spend so much time dodging and maneuvering.

If you are spellstorm and not laying a pillar at your head then you should definitely do that. That zap line is just like the Steal Time cloud lines.

I have been running with shield either tabbed or not, I switch powers around a lot inside a match as i feel need be.

Back to what I first said, the best time to counter them is when they are invisible. This is one instance I don't use shield in tab, but just in a regular slot. After the shield eats the damage from his ITC mode and he stealths, blow that shield up. Now start a half cast on steal time to track where he is. Smoke cloud lines are the point here, it will stack slow on him, show you where he is with smoke trails and if your MoF with the right passive feature all these ticks it does can proc a crit rolling smolder on him as well, also it procs weapon enchants each tick, atleast for lifedrinker and lightning.

Don't keep running away from him, that is what he wants. With steal time working on your side slowing him down and showing you where he is let him get close to you, he will either be forced to dodge out of steal time or stay in it and get stuck. This is where the psuedo mind reading and lucky guessing comes in to play. Do you dodge out because you think he is going to or do you let it finish because you think he is getting ballsy.

But really I promise if you use shield to blast him while he is invisible for that guaranteed push and just go the opposite way, or use Steal time in mastery slot for stacking slow and dodge/cancelling to put it on 4 sec cool down or letting it rip and stunning him(or missing him if he dodges, but that isn't that big of a deal because it is messing up how is he trying to ration his resources IE stamina, cooldowns, stealth bar) And even if you miss the initial ticks can proc effects, stack slow and the burst gives you a huge speed boost. Either way after it goes off and your glowing all gold get some quick stamina free space between the two of you while his stealth is running out and he is forced to use ITC at an inconvenient range and either run or try and get a SS on you - DODGE this is THE moment that will decide if you stand a chance or not. If he can get back in to another stealth cycle it will be a pain but steal time will be ready at least, and usually Daily as well.

TL;DR Catch him when he is activating PotB, this take constant observation of whats around you. They have to start it out of stealth and kind of near by - almost always within spell range. IT ruins his whole set up and plan.

Hit him while he is stealthed, don't just keep running around wasting dodges scared and frustrated - that's what he wants you to do.

Tracking a Stealth Rogue - StormPillar, Steal Time, Icy Terrain, Shard on tab if your feelin lucky(it gets evaporated too easy) but 1v1 its pretty great vs perma rogue.

Hit him while he is stealthed After tracking him in some fashion, hit him with whatever you can. Shield blast, and steal time are my favorites. When you let steal time full cast and then he is stunned and you blow up shield you can then chase him down with your speed and follow up with a push or choke or what have you - pretty much just force him to ITC, then watch for the SS and deny him that skill shot. Dodge it, it is easy sine you will be close to him and know he will be using it sine you took away the option of him using it from stealth. Or if you need to get away after the steal time stuns and you can see him push him away with shield burst and use that golden run speed to put a bunch of stamina free distance between you.

bewareofbathory · May 2014

Thanks for the guide!

dllindsey12 · May 2014

i use steal time on them. and ive found it quite effective against them. what it does is it stuns them wasting their stealth meter and then the damage portion of it drains it as well. the spell alone makes them visible to me which then i choke them, chill strike, ray of frost to get my 6 stacks of chill, then icy rays. by then they are trying to chase after me trying to get back in stealth but they are dead before they can try. or they get away from me and run away lol

bucklittle · May 2014

Having played plenty of Rogue in PVP i'll give my advice for playing against TR as CW.

In an ironic twist, the most OP class or at least one of the most OP classes, the TR, has quite a weaknesses against CWs. It's important to understand that this isn't necessarily true in a 1v1, but domination matches are never 1v1s.

As a CW, as long as you have another teammate, dispatching backcapping TRs is extremely easy. This means you will either want to sit on home point and call for help every time the TR comes back, or have a teammate sit on homepoint and you will go their every time the TR comes back.

You will need two encounters, entangling force and steal time. I also recommend icy terrain if you want to specifically counter TRs, it's also extremely good against HRs. Your goal is to catch the rogue with an entangling force after their ITC is down. You will reveal them with steal time. Then you will freeze them in place with either icy terrain or entangling force. Watch your teammate chain prone(GWF/GF/CW) or disruptive shot(HR) while you either drop a meatball on them or ice knife them.

If they are using ITC you will almost certainly have to wait for at least 1 of their rotations against a good TR, but if you use icy terrain and entangling force, you can get lucky and attempt to instantly drop them when you show up at the tower.

Preferably your teammate isn't ironically a DC, which is good at 1v1ing TRs, or ironically(third time) another TR.

ghoulz66 · May 2014

How fast does smolder drain stealth?

crazymikee · May 2014

ghoulz66 wrote: »

How fast does smolder drain stealth?

never played MoF xD

twilightwatchman · May 2014

ghoulz66 wrote: »

How fast does smolder drain stealth?

Pretty fast if you have a Bilethorn slotted.

I changed over to Thaum MoF a little while ago and now hunt rogues for fun. I only have a Lesser Bilethorn but if I see a Rogue for even a fraction of a second - ITC or not - he isn't staying in stealth any time soon. RoF is lethal with Bilethorn (stacks build almost as fast as a Rogue using DF), as is Fanning the Flame and Scorching Burst. Good times and much revenge being had at the moment.

Edit: Oh, and if the Rogue is good at staying hidden then the Steal Time trick described earlier works even better with Bilethorn ticks added...

crazymikee · May 2014

twilightwatchman wrote: »

Pretty fast if you have a Bilethorn slotted.

I changed over to Thaum MoF a little while ago and now hunt rogues for fun. I only have a Lesser Bilethorn but if I see a Rogue for even a fraction of a second - ITC or not - he isn't staying in stealth any time soon. RoF is lethal with Bilethorn (stacks build almost as fast as a Rogue using DF), as is Fanning the Flame and Scorching Burst. Good times and much revenge being had at the moment.

Edit: Oh, and if the Rogue is good at staying hidden then the Steal Time trick described earlier works even better with Bilethorn ticks added...

i had just tried that and i wasnt even aware of how useful it is haha, now when i see a rogue going to friendly base i switch force choke with steal time and chill strike with ice rays :P

todesfaelle · May 2014

Here's a link to a post I made about Bile + RoF/Steal Time Cancellation I made a month back (please forgive the quality, though). It has some videos as to how fast RoF can Stack Smolder + Bile Stacks with Critical Conflagration slotted, and how fast you can stack Bile with Steal Time Cancellation (stacks upon stacks every 4 seconds as long as you have the stamina to dodge).

RoF + Bile + Critical Conflagration = a ranged version of TR DF despite it being weaker. It deals a decent amount of DoT damage specially when the Smolder starts to crit. The smolder also does not bug out which is nice.

ghoulz66 · May 2014

If I'm mostly PVE then should I just use a vorpal?

twilightwatchman · May 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

Here's a link to a post I made about Bile + RoF/Steal Time Cancellation I made a month back (please forgive the quality, though). It has some videos as to how fast RoF can Stack Smolder + Bile Stacks with Critical Conflagration slotted, and how fast you can stack Bile with Steal Time Cancellation (stacks upon stacks every 4 seconds as long as you have the stamina to dodge).

RoF + Bile + Critical Conflagration = a ranged version of TR DF despite it being weaker. It deals a decent amount of DoT damage specially when the Smolder starts to crit. The smolder also does not bug out which is nice.

It was your post that gave me the inspiration to experiment.

I haven't had to use the Steal Time trick yet as most Rogues you meet in PuG PvP aren't particularly skilled/geared and give you opportunities to hit them while visible. The nice thing is that ITC does diddly-squat against the anti-stealth ticks unless they pop it in stealth for the 100% deflect, and even then they only get 5 seconds worth.

I'm leaving a trail of puzzled Rogues in Domination. I'd estimate in 9 out of 10 encounters I either kill them or make them run away. It's a satisfying turnabout for a CW.

twilightwatchman · May 2014

ghoulz66 wrote: »

If I'm mostly PVE then should I just use a vorpal?

Depends what build you're running and whether you want to focus on personal DPS or group DPS really. The two standard choices for Spellstorm mages are either Vorpal for personal DPS or Plaguefire for group DPS. I guess the same would apply for MoF although you have less burst and no EotS for guaranteed crits.

I'm running the IWD content using my PvP build, including the Bilethorn. I just change out a couple of encounters. It's just as effective against the mobs there as it is against human opponents in PvP.

relativity · May 2014

I've also found Sigil of Controller useful when I see TR passing by in stealth near me. Though I PUG mostly and maybe that is due to lack of experience on some TRs part.

todesfaelle · May 2014

twilightwatchman wrote: »

It was your post that gave me the inspiration to experiment.

I haven't had to use the Steal Time trick yet as most Rogues you meet in PuG PvP aren't particularly skilled/geared and give you opportunities to hit them while visible. The nice thing is that ITC does diddly-squat against the anti-stealth ticks unless they pop it in stealth for the 100% deflect, and even then they only get 5 seconds worth.

I'm leaving a trail of puzzled Rogues in Domination. I'd estimate in 9 out of 10 encounters I either kill them or make them run away. It's a satisfying turnabout for a CW.

Hey, Twilight! I just noticed we were talking about the same thing lol. I posted that when I was in the office so my mind was a little bit displaced and didn't see your convo with Crazy.

Anyway I'm glad it sparked some inspiration for you. I currently do not have the time and resources to fully deck out my CW so if by any chance you guys find out anything neat with Bile's synergy with CW's (MoF or SS), I personally would love to hear more. All I can do is test in Preview but I've got too little to test on in there.

twilightwatchman · May 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

Hey, Twilight! I just noticed we were talking about the same thing lol. I posted that when I was in the office so my mind was a little bit displaced and didn't see your convo with Crazy.

Anyway I'm glad it sparked some inspiration for you. I currently do not have the time and resources to fully deck out my CW so if by any chance you guys find out anything neat with Bile's synergy with CW's (MoF or SS), I personally would love to hear more. All I can do is test in Preview but I've got too little to test on in there.

Yeah I'm limited on resources also, which is why it took me so long to get even a Lesser Bile to test this build with. Really happy with it though.

I'm running a dot-heavy MoF build because I figured that had more synergy with Bile. Encounters for PvP are FtF on tab, CoI, RoE, and Icy Rays. At-wills are Scorching Burst and RoF. I'm lacking burst but I can get a stack of dots ticking in very short order. Typically people start running away at that point. The nice thing is I've had kills when my target was halfway across the map from me.

I think SS will have less synergy but should still be effective by relying on RoF, CoI, and Steal Time. Fewer dots but more burst. And more crits for Smoulder - I use Scorching Burst to make up for that. I'm really coming to love SB actually. Can be spammed on single target or charged really quickly to hit multiple targets. You can fully dot up the melee at Mid real quick from a tower.

Countering Perma-Stealth Rogues

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