Marauders vs Thorn

overddrive · May 2014

This is a subject of some debate. Of course which is "best" is situational. That is the easy answer. But generally, what do you guys is feel best?

Personally I am a fan of marauders over thorn. It multiplies your maneuverability exponentially and is two strong extremely useful encounters on either side of the bar. Thorn is just thornward. Yes thornward is great. But it is only even good on one side of the bar (ranged).

Also I find foxshift much easier to land right after rush. So for me it is constricting>rush>shift and then usually either escape + disruptive or aimed strike. Speaking of aimed strike, it seems like it alone does more damage than thornward, provided one can land a second for 14 consecutive ticks.

Oh, and as far as anti-perma measures go (we hr's are often put on 'kill teh perma duty'), it seems any good encounter or at will that can be spammed without a target works pretty well. I like constricting for that. So thornward is not must have imo.

This isnt just a "rush is training wheels" things, I have watched a ton of videos from some of the best hr's in the game from the top guilds. Rush definitely has a slot in their rotation.

So what do my fellow HR's think?

osarax · May 2014

thorn ward is the best anti-perma tr spell u got as HR, specially if the TR isnt smart enough to use bait and switch on it...
if he uses bait then u have to figure another way/rotation around to 1v1 him...

now about ur actual question, as u said both are situational...thorn ward is insane debuff and dot spell and i really want to have it as much as possible on my rotation..depending on who i am against i choose 2 out of these 3 spells : constricting, thorn, marauders...with mod3 boar comes into my rotation too tho i think !

equ4lizer · May 2014

Thornward seems to proc plague fire and tenebrous effects nicely, just tested it on preview servers. Seems to deal high dot damage.

equ4lizer · May 2014

Marauders is useful at the same time. Im using that as often as other encounter powers. Hard to decide, we'lk have to test all that again in icewind dale module 3

xaansteel · May 2014

Fox shift is usually good enough to find the TR for me but you never know, sometimes they're extra tricky and you might want thorn ward. Otherwise Marauder's is the best to use. I can't even imagine playing without it, especially when they're chasing you and then you hit it and dash behind them

, and yeah the combo with fox shift is fantastic.

overddrive · May 2014

It does seem like either marauders or thorn, foxshift and constricting are way too important. It is really awkward not using marauders. I do think if your going all out tank/combat thorn is probably the better choice. Hybrid and archer, marauders is a must have.

hamletswords · May 2014

Why not boar's rush? Nothing is better against GWFs and GFs. So much fun to prone them when they come in to prone you, too (also tons of fun to prone other HRs that look to zoom in and attack in melee- most of them cannot resist, even if they know you have boar's slotted).

Generally constricting and fox shift always stay on my load-up, and I use boar's mostly. The only problem is it's a little hard to land (should be helped a lot come tomorrow with the fix), and you have to get in melee range yourself (usually not a problem except against CWs, as everyone else will be coming into your range to attack you).

I do switch out for thornward against TR's. Even if they use their dummy, it still has an equal chance to hit them and the psychological effect if nothing else is great. Nothing is better for throwing their stealth out of rotation. You may give them SE a little early but it's worth it.

I also switch in Maurader's depending on who I'm fighting. If there's a couple CW's, I'll probably put it in, depending on how they play. Some defiantly come into range so there's no need, and a boar's rush prone is great on them.

overddrive · May 2014

I think the solution is for the devs to switch some things out so the same encounter in archer stance is thornward and on melee stance is fox shift. That would be really sweet. Call it thorn-shift :P

tang56 · May 2014

overddrive wrote: »

I think the solution is for the devs to switch some things out so the same encounter in archer stance is thornward and on melee stance is fox shift. That would be really sweet. Call it thorn-shift :P

Call it broken as fk.

godlysoul2 · May 2014

Marauders is definitely best imo. Going into making my HR I was using constricting, thorn ward, and fox shift, but as soon as I switched to marauders, things just clicked. Even for my pure combat spec. It is a must have to use even on point when situations get tough for survivability with other CCs/CD reducers aside from always having the option to use it if overwhelmed to escape to a quick pot and get right back on point. Especially with soulforged it will give incredible survivability and save endless tight situations.

The reason I don't like thorn ward is because your melee move is complete trash. So either you end up using a useless longer cast move to get your extra +1 second cooldown on range abilities, or you lose that extra cooldown and another useful ability. Despite being non damage, since the ranged version of Marauders is still incredibly useful unlike the melee version of thorn ward. However, the main reason I prefer Marauders is for any situation against multiple opponents. Thorn ward is really only good 1v1 imo. If you are in a 1v2 situation or 2v2 ect. and need to put pressure on someone or spike damage them while they are down, you cant do that with thorn ward. The gap closing capability is also too useful to get in range for fox shift as well as get back out of range after the move rather than needing to stick soely to ranged moves or needing to try to waste dodges moving in/out of range.

EDIT: looks like after reading through your post its a lot of the same reasons.

hamletswords · May 2014

godlysoul2 wrote: »

Marauders is definitely best imo. Going into making my HR I was using constricting, thorn ward, and fox shift, but as soon as I switched to marauders, things just clicked. Even for my pure combat spec. It is a must have to use even on point when situations get tough for survivability with other CCs/CD reducers aside from always having the option to use it if overwhelmed to escape to a quick pot and get right back on point. Especially with soulforged it will give incredible survivability and save endless tight situations.

The reason I don't like thorn ward is because your melee move is complete trash. So either you end up using a useless longer cast move to get your extra +1 second cooldown on range abilities, or you lose that extra cooldown and another useful ability. Despite being non damage, since the ranged version of Marauders is still incredibly useful unlike the melee version of thorn ward. However, the main reason I prefer Marauders is for any situation against multiple opponents. Thorn ward is really only good 1v1 imo. If you are in a 1v2 situation or 2v2 ect. and need to put pressure on someone or spike damage them while they are down, you cant do that with thorn ward. The gap closing capability is also too useful to get in range for fox shift as well as get back out of range after the move rather than needing to stick soely to ranged moves or needing to try to waste dodges moving in/out of range.

EDIT: looks like after reading through your post its a lot of the same reasons.

Maruader's is great but I wouldn't say the best.

I think more people need to try boar's rush.

In most cases in a 1v1, it's better to have boar's rush than marauder's (the only exception being a CW that stays at max range).

If you're contesting a node against a GWF, nothing is a better combo than boar's rush-fox-shift, then run around while they're unstoppable, then repeat. Without boar's rush it's really hard to get damage on them without getting proned yourself.

query523 · May 2014

I used maurader for most of the first month on my HR. Taking it out was the best thing I ever did. Look, it offers a lot of mobility. No doubt. But when you look at trading that mobility for 2 encounters (a melle and a ranged and you'd better be using it hybrid because outherwise it is just another way to split up adds) it does not even out. Swap iot for constricting which, while not stellar, is good in both stances, and it is a net gain IMHO.

hamletswords · May 2014

query523 wrote: »

I used maurader for most of the first month on my HR. Taking it out was the best thing I ever did. Look, it offers a lot of mobility. No doubt. But when you look at trading that mobility for 2 encounters (a melle and a ranged and you'd better be using it hybrid because outherwise it is just another way to split up adds) it does not even out. Swap iot for constricting which, while not stellar, is good in both stances, and it is a net gain IMHO.

Most people run with constricting, marauder's and foxshift. Pretty much the standard set-up, so they wouldn't need to swap out marauder's for constricting.

And marauder's rush is actually great. Good damage and great mobility.

query523 · May 2014

For PVE or PVP? Because PVE without RoA is just wrong.

lirithiel · May 2014

query523 wrote: »

For PVE or PVP? Because PVE without RoA is just wrong.

For pvp.

Marauder's wins out for me every time. The range for Boar's Rush just seems too small, barely from one side of the node to the other. The fix will help some I'm sure and prone is nice but mobility is just awesome both ways with Marauder's. I may give Thorn Ward a test run after the buff but doubt it will make my bar ahead of Marauder's.

hamletswords · May 2014

I'm thinking of taking fox shift off and going archer spec after the nerf.

Thinking of constricting, boar's and maurader's, although boar's is much less effective without a good fox shift to follow it up.

Maybe full archery constricting, thorn, maruder's or constricing, binding/oakskin, maruder's.

overddrive · May 2014

hamletswords wrote: »

I'm thinking of taking fox shift off and going archer spec after the nerf.

Thinking of constricting, boar's and maurader's, although boar's is much less effective without a good fox shift to follow it up.

Maybe full archery constricting, thorn, maruder's or constricing, binding/oakskin, maruder's.

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but fox shift and damage overall seems much increased. The constricting>marauders>foxshift>disruptive is almost a sure fire kill now regardless of what that rotation hits. Same with aimed shot.

Cutting through everything like wet toilet paper, but I am noticing my toon seems squishier also.

hamletswords · May 2014

overddrive wrote: »

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but fox shift and damage overall seems much increased. The constricting>marauders>foxshift>disruptive is almost a sure fire kill now regardless of what that rotation hits. Same with aimed shot.

Cutting through everything like wet toilet paper, but I am noticing my toon seems squishier also.

Well, you may be fighting more PVE geared people if you're killing them so fast and they're hitting you harder.

Fox shift does hit harder but it's less hits. Against two people close to eachother it's great as you get almost the same damage as before except it's not split and it hits 2 people. Against one the damage seems less. But maybe not so much less than I thought.

Thornward seems to be hitting for a lot more, although that may be my imagination as the patch notes only mentioned thorn strike.

lirithiel · May 2014

I did some pvp last night after Mod 3 launched and I must say I'm not really feeling the nerf to Fox Shift other than it hitting 2 targets instead of 3 now. I am still killing players as easily now as before using the same encounters as combat (Marauder's, Constricting and Fox Shift) Haven't really tested out Thorn Ward yet.

kalspiro · May 2014

Marauder's is my bread and butter power, in and out, all over the place. I can't not have that. But I also use Thorn. With M3, though, Thorn Strike is more useful. Does more damage and more likely to hit even if you're not right on top of them.

marnival · May 2014

Imho it comes down to gear and other teams set up.
If your are less then 32 k hp and built for more dps then survival Marauder's is probably the best option as you need to be able to get out of harms way.
If you are 32k+with good regg using 4/4 armor with heal on deflect and meele build with 10% extra deflect using thorn becomes more valid.

Same goes for other teams set up if its mostly cw/rangers Marauder's will be more useful but if they are 3 tanks/2tanks+ tr thorn is probably a better shoise.

Marauder's is really hard to remove from bar but I have been using thorn more and more and I have to admit that holding/clearing points with it is makes a huge differance compared to using Marauder's.

I switch from PV to GPF and together with thorn the aoe dam + dott/debuff is making a big differance.

Best

hamletswords · May 2014

marnival wrote: »

Imho it comes down to gear and other teams set up.
If your are less then 32 k hp and built for more dps then survival Marauder's is probably the best option as you need to be able to get out of harms way.
If you are 32k+with good regg using 4/4 armor with heal on deflect and meele build with 10% extra deflect using thorn becomes more valid.

Same goes for other teams set up if its mostly cw/rangers Marauder's will be more useful but if they are 3 tanks/2tanks+ tr thorn is probably a better shoise.

Marauder's is really hard to remove from bar but I have been using thorn more and more and I have to admit that holding/clearing points with it is makes a huge differance compared to using Marauder's.

I switch from PV to GPF and together with thorn the aoe dam + dott/debuff is making a big differance.

Best

Throw on careful attack and you have even more of a dot. Great on rogues it seems.

I spent my zen I got on AD for some radiants and respeced full CON and having 32k and almost 2k regen is really great. I recommend going for something around there for everyone. Makes you feel a lot more confident.

overddrive · May 2014

As a kind of conclusion, I am now running with thornward for guild premade and marauders for pugs. The mod3 thornward buff is really nice. TR's are much much less problematic. If you have a really competent team and you expect to be holding nodes and doing general fire support for tanks, thornward is brilliant. In pugs, which a person often has to carry, marauders is absolutely necessary to fly from node to node, killing and capping on ones merry way lol.

gabrieldourden · May 2014

I usually go in PVP with Boar´s Hide/Charge, Constricting Arrow and Marauder´s. Rotation is typically,Constricting Arrow, Marauder´s Rush, Boar´s Charge, Marauder´s Escape, Aimed Shot.

lirithiel · May 2014

It really is becoming a tough decision to ignore Thorn Ward for pvp given its current state. I wonder if I shouldn't change it up with Constricting Arrow seeing as it hardly ever works against GWF and GF (and we all know just how many of them there are these days). Marauder's just provides too much mobility to lose and the dodge from Fox is priceless.

Btw didn't Crush say on the Pathfinder preview thread that the radius of Thorn Ward had been increased? I know there is no mention of any changes to Thorn Ward in the patch notes but the radius still doesn't completely cover a node in pvp - looks pretty much the same.

overddrive · May 2014

lirithiel wrote: »

It really is becoming a tough decision to ignore Thorn Ward for pvp given its current state. I wonder if I shouldn't change it up with Constricting Arrow seeing as it hardly ever works against GWF and GF (and we all know just how many of them there are these days). Marauder's just provides too much mobility to lose and the dodge from Fox is priceless.

Btw didn't Crush say on the Pathfinder preview thread that the radius of Thorn Ward had been increased? I know there is no mention of any changes to Thorn Ward in the patch notes but the radius still doesn't completely cover a node in pvp - looks pretty much the same.

I'd be careful taking constricting out of your rotation. Some people see marauders as a crutch. Constricting screws up peoples rotations. Rush/escape is just another layer of mobility on top of a 30 layer mobility cake. XD

hamletswords · May 2014

I'm having the most success with thornward, boar's rush and either fox shift or constricting (basically I'll put in constricing if there's a problem CW, otherwise I'll go with fox shift for more burst).

No Marauder's but I never find it all that useful on the node itself, and that's where I want to be if I'm using thornward, because that's where I want the enemy to be.

quitegonejin · May 2014

osarax wrote: »

thorn ward is the best anti-perma tr spell u got as HR,

Not exactly true, any TR worth his salt knows that if he enters the red circle of thorn ward while already stealthed he will take no damage. Yes, his position would be pulsed, but if he is unpredictable and dodgy that wont be a problem. There are other better ways to deal with the TR. That being said, on my HR I like using both TW and ME.

Marauders vs Thorn

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