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TR's should go back to their old ways. [Poll]
pandora1x
Member Posts: 725 Arc User
I think the devs should revoke the nerfs they did to us so far (Since mod1), and get rid of perma stealth.
I was always more impressed when getting 1-shotted than being killed by a ghost throwing toothpicks (I'll admit I'm one these toothpick throwing ghosts). But let's be real here, devs nerfed TR so badly that this is our last resort.
So if you give TR its old glory, then I'm sure more people will go the combat way, consider it devs.
Example of an old truck-hitting TR
^ Obviously adapted with Tenacity of course.
Added poll!
I was always more impressed when getting 1-shotted than being killed by a ghost throwing toothpicks (I'll admit I'm one these toothpick throwing ghosts). But let's be real here, devs nerfed TR so badly that this is our last resort.
So if you give TR its old glory, then I'm sure more people will go the combat way, consider it devs.
Example of an old truck-hitting TR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Nq7uJSe1k^ Obviously adapted with Tenacity of course.
Added poll!
Post edited by pandora1x on
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Comments
Both iterations of the meta you mentioned, TRs were OP.
So we might as well stay where we are, since my TR is specifically built for perma.
Perma TR's want to keep being untouchable it seems. But it's inevitable, something will be done sooner or later.
Wonder what the TR community will come up with once Perma is nerfed.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
Aware me further on this? Seems interesting, is there a video somewhere? (of the 5v5).
Also Rainbow party is dead in NW. It's all about CW/GWF. Back then in module 1 people weren't such Elitists, rainbow parties were pretty much everywhere (At least for me). Good times.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
FW PVP was very different than here, there were no dodges, one shots were fairly common, and most importantly, it wasn't capture the flag, it was whoever kills the opponent first. CC there was king, like it used to be here, and people would generally build to be super glass cannons.
Really though, the classes were all very similar to each other. Yeah the names were different, but the cooldowns were similar, the skills caused the same effects, and the damage was similar. Ranged classes kited around, melee classes chased them. There was no perma stealth, and very little CC immunity. I prefer the PVP here greatly, even with all its flaws to over there. Skill has a much larger impact in this game. Over there you could pretty much one shot anyone who was average geared if you had BiS gear, regardless of class.
That doesn't tell me much, it only tells me that the holy trinity of Healer/Tank/(insert class) there is pretty much the same here only its GWF/CW/(insert class here).
That said... if I had the choice myself... It would be to revoke the nerfs. Rogues are rogues... they were only doing what they were supposed to be doing and are designed to do in every game known to man as the archetype...
I have never seen anything so ludicrous as complaining that a class is doing exactly what its supposed to be doing.
The perma stealth thing... yeah its cheezy and not really rogue or assassin like and doesn't really fit the archetype. But well... it is balanced in its own way even if its the complete opposite of what they're supposed to be.
Your build will be criticized, and it won't please the elitists, but it is viable in PvP with tenacity in a hybrid state.
Shocking is the new lashing, although lashings can still hit 15-20k.
Stealth-based bilethorn is just the bandwagon build at the moment.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Poor TRs
Why does it have to be either one of; "kill the enemy 1 shot so they have no way to fight back", or "kill the enemy from stealth, so they have no way to fight back"??
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Errm... because... errm... that's what a rogue does...
They sneak up and backstab people without being seen and... well kill them without them having a chance to fight back.
Shockingly it never occurred to some people that's what the entire class was designed for in D&D.
But the irony staggers the mind...
What did you expect, a bunch of fighters just standing across from each other whacking each other with swords for 1d8 points of damage.
Heck rogues can be even nastier in the real game where they use poisons that are equally deadly. Course they get their butts whooped pretty bad when they're standing toe to toe with anyone.
God forbid people ranging form bad to good, holding the exact weight in their comments?, despite all thats said some people just can;t be taken seriously.
Not directed at anyone in particular but really need something to put into perspective based on where their views are coming form ie spec and gs.
Can i suggest when people talk about their pvp experiences and why something needs a nerf first post, gs and specs, or some kind of self introduction?
Er... no.
Rogues aren't what you suggest them to be, not in D&D4th, classic, Advanced, 3.0 nor in 3.5. This imagery of a rogue doing everything from shadows, assassinating everyone one-shot, comes from other MMORPGs, not from D&D.
Makes me kinda wonder if you've even seen what the rogues are like in D&D4th. Or are you talking about certain PC-adapted versions of the rogue? Because those rogues also aren't what the rogues are really like in D&D. They're literally "adapted versions" of the D&D rogue, just as NW rogues are.
Besides, a class that kills someone without ever giving them a chance to fight back, is usually known by another name. It is either called "OP" or "bugged". Take your pick, but I want neither.
(ps) There are a LOT of fun and useful combat-assisting feats/skills in the real D&D4th and most of them are for fighting "normally". It's the way how the developers have "translated" it to imagery that is more easily recognizable for players who are used to concepts from other MMOs -- that the rogues are the way they are right now, not because they are this way in D&D.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
But the best TR build in PvP is not a full perma from what i know, but a hybrid.
TRs are fin where they are now. And are up there on par with GWF tanks and strong HRs in PvP.
If their ability to go stealth is reduced, then i agree to an increase in damage or tankyness, but only with the aim to keep their overall strenght in PvP where it is now.
I may repeat myself, but TRs right now, used at their "peak", are among the strongest if not the strongest class for PvP.
I would leave them the way they are now (with the coming fix to SE). Or i would reduce their ability to stealth for very long times, but increasing the damage of their encounters.
Right now, the best PvP TRs work this way: bilethorn and throw knives from stealth, go ITC, tank, dodge roll away and fade into stealth, evade and throw knives + bilethorn again, repeat.
It's all about the ability to mix long stealth and evading, with immunities.
If their ability to evade is reduced, i'd give them more damage or more tankyness to keep the balance.
But not the 1-shot parade we can see in the video, with 30k+ damage hits and 1-shots from full health...
EDIT: one thing Worth pointing out. Permastealth is fair when fighting on a point. In open ground/ open world, nothing can obviously keep up with a permastealth TR using ranged Attacks on you. TRs know that very well, and that's why even in preview Icewind Dale, duels with TRs are usually arranged defining a limited arena/ area to fight into. A change to permastealth that could actually be fair would be to make stealth last the same as now when you're in a "domination point size" radius (what is it, 30-35'?) from your enemy, and drains much faster the more you get far from an enemy. Would also limit the ability of some TRs to troll points, walk away safely if losing, recover, come back, and repeat forever. And would improve balance between CWs and TRs, since TRs would need to actually find a way to circle/ get behind the CW before going stealth, instead of going permastealth, walk straight to the CW and take him down.
Then you could even think about increasing A BIT the damage from other encounters and balance them with tenacity for PvP, while improving them for PvE.
This is actually a very interesting proposal. It intrigued me. If we reason how stealth is done--something about sneaking in the shadows with some voodoo mojo involved--in reality, it would be more sensible that stealth is not drained by taking damage
but by PROXIMITY to an enemy
No matter how you think of it, the closer you are to an enemy, the higher your levels of detection should be. That means you can still throw daggers at 60' range, but that is the absolute margin where your stealth should begin to drain faster. When you close in for a melee assault, your stealth should exponentially peel off, giving you at least one chance to the element of surprise.
What is wrong with permastealth if all that it could mean is "hiding under the bush, or behind a rock, indefinitely, until you are discovered?" Right, nothing. But as soon as you get into offensive range (60' for TR daggers) you now have more risk of being seen.
In line with these suggestions to rebalancing permastealth, the devs should change Tenacious Concealment passive, from 90% less stealth drain when taking damage, to an additional distance from which your stealth is not detectable; -10', -20' if maxed out.
Additionally:
Draining stealth when dealing damage goes in contradiction to the following Powers/Feats/Mechaincs:
Lurkers Assault: damage bonus for a long duration, and stealth regenerates faster
Gloaming Cut:
Sneaky Stabber (feat): Your Gloaming Cut now grants stealth when you attack an enemy.
Hateful Knives:
Seething Knives (feat): After using Hateful Knives daily, you regain a percentage of stealth when attacking the same target.
The rumored nerf to permastealth (mentioned by the devs in passing) would require a rework of all the above mechanics. If a rework on stealth is underway, it should be something else.
I dont want rogues to just be down to, knowing everything they will/going to do to you whenever you see a rogue on the list in the battle roster like how most GWF's are now.
Probably because the thread was made by a player who plays TR?
individual leaderboards will be a part of module 3 but i can already tell you that we won't be allowing pvp leaderboards on the forums because it will perpetuate pvp drama.
also, the forums are open for everyone to discuss the game. there is no requirement to validate your opinions with proof.
also, OP, please check your PMs. thanks.
Rather then validate and preventing open discussion(makes is sound like im and elitist whihc I'm not),I'm focusing on certain comments and suggestions that are pushing for a change in the playstyle of a class in its entirety(which is a pretty big thing should it push through), obviously people with differing skils, and gs will have views that differ form people who can play their class well and built for it.
It simply a matter of listing everything about yourself, post your grievance and people can detecting what went wrong, and is the problem solely based on the information provided.
Experiences and comments can point out the problem might not be in class but PlayStyle and mentality, or build in general.It's a way of diagnosing the problem by having all variable laid out for you to see.
By listing your gs, your encounters and your build,and feats solutions and advice can be more accurate, rather then nerf this they are OP, which doesn't bring anything into perspective at all aside form the poster, not being able to deal with a class, but not listing what hes doing and what he has to play with.
The comment while low, still have possibility to change an entire class, and an entire play stlye where many people will be effected, I don't want very bad players to carry weight in their discussion, that will ultimately effect my class, and what i can do and not do.
Even I'm pretty sure Elo ranking wont show in forums(since i wasn't half serious) and the accuracy is an issue as well but at least you can consider the margin of error, but at least i want to search it up at boards.
I understand that point, I Just felt i should clarify myself to melo and that people who Suggest nerfs should have a degree in tranparency.
No, the current rogue is a spinoff of the Thief Class and Assassin Class in 1st edition D&D. The assassin class could kill you instantly and had a percentage chance to assassinate you. The Thief Class snuck around and backstabbed from the shadows. They were used for taking out mages who had low health but were generally strong against all melee.
You're right, I do not know the 4th edition D&D rogue if they've changed it. But I do know that in D&D rogues sneaking up and backstabbing people does exactly what I said...
And no that's not from MMORPGs....