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High Visier, the must go for any CW - How does it work?
lamminatboden
Member Posts: 51 Arc User
So it is "common knowledge" in Neverwinter that the High Visier set is the best set for a CW out there. Why? Because it has strong debuffing included, and mass debuffing is the key to victory in most fight. But since the descriptions in this game aren't very precise, one could wonder what it actually does.
High Visier: Your control powers steal 450 defense from the target, increasing your defense by that amount.
First of all, since mobs don't have a defense, it just acts as a damage debuff on all mobs. Also, the "defensive stacks" on your CW that increases your defense are not directly coupled to the "offensive stacks" that are on the mobs and increase the damage you and your teammates deal to them.
Let's take a look at which spells actually do generate a defensive stack on you giving you 450 more defense and which actually generate more damage on your targets. Maximum stack on either you and your targets is always 3. The buff last for 5 seconds and the duration is refreshed when you apply a new stack.
Defensive Stacks:
- Entangling Force: 1 for each target hit (you need it in tab to hit more than one)
- Repel: 1 for each target hit (same as above)
- Steal Time: 1 when the stun goes off
- Shield: 1 when the shield goes off, and 1 additional for each target hit
Offensive Stacks per target:
- Chill Strike: 3 on main target (2 if target is cc immun), 1 on each target hit by the AoE if used in tab
- Entangling Force: 1
- Repel: 1
- Shield: 1 on each target that get hits when the shield goes off
- Icy Terrain: 1
- Steal Time: 3, already triggered by each tick of the slow
- Shard of Endless Avalanche: 1-3, depending on when and how the shard explodes
- Ice Storm: 2
- Ice Knife: 3
- Oppressive Force: 3
All other powers (excluding Mage of Fire, this table is only complete for Spellstorm Mage, but the differnces are small) do not trigger High Visier. You might think that Arcane Singularity, freezing a target or applying chill stacks in general would apply the HV buff - but they do not.
Conclusion:
You are a CW and you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and you can make almost any spell combination work. It doesn't change much on your playstyle, since you are probably running steal time for cc or chill strike for single target dps anyways. With Steal Time plus either Shard or Icy Terrain you will get lots of efficiency out of that HV buff against any large groups of mobs. For single target dps (like for Valindra or Fulminorax) take chill strike. The buff almost holds as long as the cooldown is, which provides your team with a constant damage boost on the key target.
Entangling Force in Tab is sometimes better than one might think. In really tough fights where you have trouble to stay alive, it will give you not only more cc, but also tons of defense as it basically boost your defense up by 1350 for 60% of the time . Keep that in mind.
EDIT: Added Oppressive Force. Specified Chill Strike a bit further.
High Visier: Your control powers steal 450 defense from the target, increasing your defense by that amount.
First of all, since mobs don't have a defense, it just acts as a damage debuff on all mobs. Also, the "defensive stacks" on your CW that increases your defense are not directly coupled to the "offensive stacks" that are on the mobs and increase the damage you and your teammates deal to them.
Let's take a look at which spells actually do generate a defensive stack on you giving you 450 more defense and which actually generate more damage on your targets. Maximum stack on either you and your targets is always 3. The buff last for 5 seconds and the duration is refreshed when you apply a new stack.
Defensive Stacks:
- Entangling Force: 1 for each target hit (you need it in tab to hit more than one)
- Repel: 1 for each target hit (same as above)
- Steal Time: 1 when the stun goes off
- Shield: 1 when the shield goes off, and 1 additional for each target hit
Offensive Stacks per target:
- Chill Strike: 3 on main target (2 if target is cc immun), 1 on each target hit by the AoE if used in tab
- Entangling Force: 1
- Repel: 1
- Shield: 1 on each target that get hits when the shield goes off
- Icy Terrain: 1
- Steal Time: 3, already triggered by each tick of the slow
- Shard of Endless Avalanche: 1-3, depending on when and how the shard explodes
- Ice Storm: 2
- Ice Knife: 3
- Oppressive Force: 3
All other powers (excluding Mage of Fire, this table is only complete for Spellstorm Mage, but the differnces are small) do not trigger High Visier. You might think that Arcane Singularity, freezing a target or applying chill stacks in general would apply the HV buff - but they do not.
Conclusion:
You are a CW and you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and you can make almost any spell combination work. It doesn't change much on your playstyle, since you are probably running steal time for cc or chill strike for single target dps anyways. With Steal Time plus either Shard or Icy Terrain you will get lots of efficiency out of that HV buff against any large groups of mobs. For single target dps (like for Valindra or Fulminorax) take chill strike. The buff almost holds as long as the cooldown is, which provides your team with a constant damage boost on the key target.
Entangling Force in Tab is sometimes better than one might think. In really tough fights where you have trouble to stay alive, it will give you not only more cc, but also tons of defense as it basically boost your defense up by 1350 for 60% of the time . Keep that in mind.
EDIT: Added Oppressive Force. Specified Chill Strike a bit further.
Post edited by lamminatboden on
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Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Thanks, don't know how that happened.
Which gets me, because when it comes to a Control Wizard using his cc in a dungeon, the first thing that comes to mind IS Arcane Singularity lol.
I have let go the idea of the perfect PvE CW build long time ago, because it doesn't make sense to me anymore. No matter what you put on, your GS will be way too high. Unless you're a new player of course... then just use CS on TAB, Shard, ST, SS.
But ya, still got a High Vizier set in my bank in case they might introduce some awesome PvE content one day.
Only for very inexperienced CWs.
Oppressive force is the control daily. Singularity is the "gathering stuff up if they happen to be too far spread out, so you can aoe/cc them with a minor bit of CC at the very end" daily. That the 1 second of CC makes most attacks miss makes it even less effective as CC, so they can't attack me for 1 second but i can't attack them either.
I don't count myself as 'very inexperienced' and I do use OF on occasion, but I use AS a whole lot more. Dragging a bunch of mobs that are trying to pound me to pulp after the first rotation out of pulping range is a really, really lovely thing. The fact that it takes a couple of seconds to gather them up is a positive boon imo. I tend to OF when things are going well, just to speed things up, or when things are going really badly and we need an instant breather.
Actually, Arcane Singularity IS the control daily for CWs. When you ask players what they want in high end dungeons, do they want a daily that stuns mobs for a few seconds, or the daily that neatly piles all the adds into 1 neat pile for HRs and GWFs to decimate?
Don't mean to be mean, but all I have to say is this: go into T2's or CN using Oppressive Force and/or Icy Storm... You might just get booted for being a waste to the team.
That's ridiculous. It may be conventional wisdom to use Arcane Singularity over and over, but there are lots of occasions where Oppressive Force is much more preferable. If enemies are already clumped together it's a waste of a daily to re-clump them. I've never, ever been booted for using Oppressive Force. I throw out Oppressive Force when Eye of the Storm is active and there are tons of enemies in range--and they all die or darn near. The most common reaction I get is "holy **** that was awesome!" I've never gotten "What a waste! Use Singularity!"
With combat tracker running I've had Oppressive Force deal over 600k damage in one cast to the mob left over after Hrimnir died. It is by far the highest damaging daily.
I actually ran CN several times this weekend with at least 2 or 3 CWs (including myself). Depending on the pull 1 would use AS and the other OF. We blew through the entire dungeon quickly. As a matter of fact on Draco I had 1 team where we did not use AS at all. Each CW just took turns using OF. No issues. But I guess that's the nub way of clearing the dungeon. I prefer to call it fast and efficient
edit: Sorry this reply was actually meant for Williep's post.
lol.
Again for inexperienced or lower end CWs (I mean no offense by this, don't take it the wrong way) then AS may be your "go to" daily, but it certainly isn't for experienced players. Depending on the dungeon I will cast singu from 0 to 3 times, and it's in very specific areas, specific pulls, with certain types of mobs which won't group up on their own. These are the only time singu speeds up or improves the dungeon run rather than slowing the party down. Knowing precisely when singu is good and when it's a hindrence comes from running dungeons a million times and everything being on auto-pilot/muscle memory.
To give an example: In Karrundax right after the path down to the named giant spawn (side room with 2 chests and a Mimic). There is a room full of fire archon dudes who the moment they aggro all cast their "jump back leaving a trail of fire" spell, and then immediately cast their "cone of fire" attack, which if you just run up and aggro them, leaves a Sea of red in the center where they all used to be congregating at.
A well placed singu can catch all of them and if cast from max range (ie well outside of aggro range) it will pull them before they aggro, thus before they begin casting and gain control immunity as the mobs here become CC immune when casting certain spells.
In the time it takes for the singularity to gather them all up the party has gotten into combat/melee range and can begin slaughtering them, and by the time the singu pops they are all dead. This is the fastest possible way to clear this room.
That is the first time I cast singu in Karrundax. The 2nd time is right after the 2nd to last campfire (the run to karru) where the exact same scenario/mob placement appears.
If i'm i'm the only CW on the team then I may cast Singu more frequently. If i'm grouped with multiple GWFs/HRs then sure, it may even be my "go to" daily, but only if they are pulling their weight, damage wise. If i'm out damaging them all while playing sing bot then sorry but no, it's faster for me to just kill the mobs instead of gathering them so that you can kill them slower than I would.
nothing I hate more than being in a team with 2+ CWs and as usual there will be 1 CW who just singbots the entire time ruining everyone elses rotations and slowing the group down to a crawl.
It's this type of attitude that gives CWs a bad name and leads to cries to nerf them because they are "broken OP". You do what's best for the team, not what is best for your personal paingiver stat.
Yes you do what's best for the team. If being a singbot means the dungeon takes 20 minutes vs 14 minutes when i focus on DPS, then i'm going to focus on DPS. Singbotting just to singbot when it's clearly inefficient and wasting the groups time is the opposite of doing what's best for the team.
Also people cry nerf because CW's are broken OP (in pve). Also because in general, CW's are the biggest cry babies in NW. We are OP. It is not a perception issue. I posted a well reasoned, detailed thread which would balance all classes in both PVE and PVP, which was immediately derailed by idiot CWs who's only concern was a slight reduction in damage to match the rest of the (buffed) damage classes.
Plus singing everything together makes it ludicrously easy to apply the thaum COI debuff to maximum effect. Moar debuff == even happier GWFs.
'Course I'm still at the point where most of the dudes I'm running with outgear me, so this might change over time, but honestly I'd still prefer to play to team strengths rather than going for the "You guys sit down while I solo this by nuking everything...*le sigh*" approach.
Plus acting as a team means everyone has more fun, which is why I'm playing in the first place. I'm not sure focusing on paring "20 mins of fun" down to a breakneck "14mins of less fun" is really a good use of effort.
Here is a hint: not everyone agrees that faster = better. I agree with morsitans. I don't want to be the arrogant CW who jumps ahead of the group and decides to effectively solo the dungeon myself.
As a class standing on its own, CWs are NOT "broken OP". They only appear that way due to the dungeon design full of easily controlled adds. They also only appear that way because of CWs like you who insist on racing through dungeons at breakneck speed without even bothering to consider what the rest of the team would prefer to do instead.
When you've run each dungeon enough times you know when singularity is pointless and when singularity is best. I don't think it's fair to say "just use sing on every pull". There are plenty of situations where it's best to use something else.
I personally hate when other people tell me which daily to use especially if they are not experienced enough with the dungeon or CWs. For example the ice golems in FH which are completely immune to AS I had some HR yelling at me to sing them. My reply of course was a polite "STFU nub".
I guess my only point here is as a CW you should not be afraid to try something other than AS. You should feel free to experiment and learn.
Some true statemants. But when running with a guild group, all perfects and nearly BiS geared, it helps dmg wise to start every pull and most of the so called megapulls (cn) with a singularity, followed by powers like rain of arrows, mightleap, lunging strike and so on. If u see 70-90k IBS from your 9kish gwf in the middle of the last phase of a singularity u know what i am talking about.
Sure, if u run ahread a casting a OF, scattering around all mobs, u see a big dps gap between cws, gwfs and hrs. I see this all the time when I am taking random CWs with me in my guild runs. If u wanna widen that dps gap, slot repel on tab and watch the gwfs running around wasting their encounters and loosing their patience :-D
OF is a vers good spell for finishing of remains of scattered mobs during a mega pull. Or as a start in certain spots where AS hits its target cap and another mage can instantly follow it with an AS. OS has it spots. But saying it is the main daily of a cw and calling other cws inexpirienced who are using AS much more often speaks of a lack of understanding teamwork and group synergy.
Assuming you actually run with bis players im certain you already knew this. You can tell the difference between actual bis/end game groups and the ones like you describe, because actual bis group has already killed everything before AS has had a chance to even gather up the 15 mobs much less actually suck them up into the singularity. The only thing singu does in these groups is prevent damage from applying and finishing off the remnants the pull while waiting on singu to finish.
With 3+ cws, OF might be the better solution because of the hindering nature of AS and the availibility (is that a word lol ;-) of cw dailies. But with two or even three cws and a group that benefits greatly from mobs clustered together, ur casting more AS than OF. For a faster clear and ofc for the other classes.
Just in case: I hope ur not one of these players who only brings gwfs and cws to cn parties, using arguments like "TRs / GFs / HRs slowing us down". Because then I will not waste ur precious time with my arguments ;-)