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GWF Problem
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Member Posts: 342 Arc User
Okay so lately I've been fighting GWFs and they literally own me. I'm not perma stealth, I'm a regular TR executioner build. I wanted to ask people for some tips because I'd go up to the GWF, "Dazing Strike" then "Lashing Blade" and it'd take away a quarter of their health (If I'm lucky) then they'd go unstoppable, prone me and easily take advantage of the 1 vs 1 kill me and take the node. I really need tips on defeating the GWFs because a while ago while I was PVPing a GWF had the node and I tried 3 times back to back on taking it from him. He killed me each time. Any help?
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there you go
also ditch that dazing strike and use a no-skill encounter like path of blades
and get a bilethorn and watch it die to your "skeeelz"
also tr's cannot facetank like a gwf, don't just run up to him use all your encounter cooldowns and die
you have to play more cautiously because you do not have 30 ac like a gwf, this is why people build perma
tl;dr use Duelist's flurry, use defensive at-wills like shadow strike and itc
Lmao.
OP, like they said. Path of The blade and Duelist's flury actually work well. Combine that with ITC+Shadow strike and you're good to go. Since you're not perma that's the best thing for you right now.
so it's time to clarify some things:
1) people calls permastealth whoever can stay in stealth more than 5 seconds.
2) shadow strik, itc, pathoftheblade make you a permastealth because you should have your rotation up 2-3 times.
3) if you dont like this playstyle you dont like the tr class but you do like a gwf.
4) combat tr is ......meh...you are basically a companion throwing 2 encounters (one of these surely consists in spamming impact shot like no tomorrow) and die 2 second after doing it. you have no unstoppable, no infinite dodge, you have stealth! and just like gwf would suck without unstoppable you will literally always lose without using stealth at its fullest.
The old gold times of 1shotting people with lashing blade are gone.
note: for the love of god get rid of sly flourish and learn how to duelist
LOL this make my day.
Bile perma build are really nuub friendly in pug games. You just pop POTB then throw daggers, you don't really need to land flurry against 10k gs scrubs.... All done during stealth as well, no sweat.
there are few rules when u play combat tr:
1.never cap alone enemy base
2.never duel anyone with pvp spec and more then 12 gs
3.get as many kills as possible.kill steals are the way to go so you will look realy good after the match with a lot of kills
4.ignore-if u are left 1v1 on cap and u will lose just ignore and move to next point.there are real experts on this forum which ignore so good that they swear the never even saw a perma tr or sent gwf in pugs.
5.dont be hard on your self -if you lose its the teams fault.
6.if u still fell bad use itc,ss,pob but if u use them might as well spec for it.its still combat sort of
Not sure if trolling but would read again
dazing strike
itc
no need for stealth
just time it up when u use them use your dodge skills when he rush at u, you.will make him anger for keep dodging his strikes once opponent gets angry he is not thinking right then u can use your stealth to really make him lose him mind by the way i dont use duelist furry just regular cloud of steel and sly flourish and guess what, it does the job.
i admit im a bit tanky tr with 27hp and 30% defense+deflection. i use normal bile and normal bark.
but at the same time my path is sabatour the "premastealth" path. so its just tactics man
hope it helps.
Duelist's Flurry is your best friend against GWF's. Majority of our damage, as some people have already mentioned, comes from our At-Wills. Duelist's Flurry is our highest-damaging At-Will and it also synergizes very well with weapon enchantments that deal a percentage of your weapon damage as extra damage because of the amount of times you hit with DF. The first 2 strikes are slow, but the final one is a barrage of strikes that deals a percentage of your weapon damage PER HIT. This is the reason why Bilethorn works very well with TR's as compared to other classes, because we have DF and they don't so make the most out of it. Bilethorn also does not have a cap on the extra damage it does after 4 seconds, so you can just imagine how much extra damage you can dish out with just DF + Bilethorn alone. Bilethorn damage also does not count as a DoT as compared to Flaming or Plague Fire. It is simply a timed damage which is why it hurts the TR Stealth Meter and the GF Guard Meter significantly if you can land it. Other weapon enchantments that synergizes very well with Duelist's Flurry are Holy Avenger with its 19% extra weapon damage as Radiant Damage, and Lightning with 20%, both enchantments are at Perfect Rank. Perfect Bilethorn however dishes out 7.5% on its initial hits, and 16% after 4 seconds per hit for a massive total of 23.5% extra weapon damage as Poison Damage.
Duelist's Flurry also has another particularly useful effect which is 2 seconds of CC immunity on its last hit. This means that while you are using the 3rd hit of DF, which is the Flurry portion (the one with fast strikes), you are immune to CC. This will make sure that you don't get proned if the GWF you are fighting uses Takedown or Frontline Surge.
Lastly, when playing against GWF's, you have to be very defensive and leave very little room for them to CC you. This means ITC should also always be slotted, and you have to DF often to get the 2 seconds of CC immunity. Make sure that during the times you are not immune, however, you will have some tricks up your sleeves to not be CC-ed. That's basically it since you don't play as a high stealth TR. You are free to use your 2 other encounter slots for which ever skill you choose but you have to keep in mind that defensive play is paramount for this current PVP meta.
As a combat rogue, you will never really win a 3v1 against ranged opponents, you just dont have enough immunity to snub a ranger and wizard while you get tossed around by a GF...but we have ways. If you're fighting a GWF, you should still use minimal stealth (Tenacious Concealment is enough).
This is a test spec done against a rank 10, 17k IV GWF vs rank 10 17k TR on PTR. TR is spec 20 pts Scoundrel for Action Rush feat, with 5 pts each in Speed Swindle (Sab) and Dazzling Blades (Executioner). This worked really well with 20% stamina regeneration from a 5/5 Heroic Feat and a Elven Haste. The TR deals all damage via DF/Clods and CB/SE.
The GWF was using the meta FLS, Takedown IBS. Combat TR on ITC, Deft Strike, Smoke Bomb. Usage: when waiting for cooldown, kite out of melee range, when stamina is up, dodge roll forward-getting behind the GWF, rinse repeat, Deft Strike->Smoke Bomb, start a DF (if and when the GWF runs, follow with Clouds of Steel). When in unstoppable, kite away wait for cooldown. Facetank DF with ITC.
BUT that's not how you win. That's a stalemate. This is how you win.
Action Rush. I did 3 shocking Executions + 2 Courage Breaker in the span of his 2 savage advances. Note: Feated ITC + CB is essentially a 6% damage buff to Duelist Flurry, while you are immune, to which there was no escape -- surprisingly dealing way more damage than SE.
You will never beat a GWF w/o use of duelists. You won't kill anything except 5kgs pugs with sly. You will die very very quickly if you're not using ITC and stealth.
If you go bile/semi perma you will be able to beat everything in game except maybe HRs as long as you can land your at wills and have at least decent keyboard skills.
Once again, this is not a debate. There is no "oh but I found the SECRET build that owns". No you didn't, semi/bile will outperform you every time in PvP. Even if your opponent isn't very good you just won't have the tools to stay alive long enough to kill them period.
Yes yes I'm positive you "own face" in PvP.... But if you come across an even decent player you are gonna die like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because your build is terrible for PvP.
There is nothing wrong with playing "your way". If you like it, do it. But don't come in here misleading people making them think that these builds are viable at all. They are not.
This is like the 10th thread about this lately and everyone keeps telling you guys what I said above. The answer is not going to change until MoD 3.
For clarity and for people who do not want to read the wall of txt above:
YOU WILL NOT BEAT A GWF THAT ISENT SEVERELY UNDERGEARED/SKILLED.
YOU WILL HAVE A LARGE ADVANTAGE AND WIN MOST OF THE TIME IF YOU RUN BILE/SEMI PERMA.
*note the qualifier "isent severely under geared/skilled". Of course you will beat a nub who's runnen Titan and sword master
That's even worse than lashing/sly flourish.
The End.
Did quite nicely against steamroller when their guild was practically lynching me in "teaching me a lesson", brought him down to within 30% of his HP with a totally non-PvP optimized build with only 24k HP max, rank7~8 enchants at most. (Ofcourse, against Sicarius himself using the retardedly easymode PotB (which was actually the point he was trying to prove), things went a lot worse.. something like 8-0 crushing defeat... but..).
I'm pretty sure he doesn't even remember it, or much less remember it that way, but considering I've not had much practice against that level of players, nor finished out refining my build/equipment at that time, things aren't necessarily as gloom as you're sugesting when it comes to fighting other classes with different builds. Already had a lot of experience fighting various levels of GWFs with various levels of gear and skill when fighting steamroller, and though none of them may have been as strong as him, a lot of them still came close, maybe one or two notches lower in skill level, and certainly geared well enough.
...
In the end, to some extent all GWFs rely on the same basic strategy -- the fluctuation of stoppable and unstoppable patterns. Hence, in whichever case the basic theory in fighting a GWF becomes;
(a) attack when stoppable, hide when unstoppable
(b) attack when knocks spent, hide when knocks recharged
...and as long as the above conditions can be met, you don't have to be necessarily a MI/ITC TR to do it. Theoretically, (and practically as well in most cases) -- if it comes to only dealing with GWFs in general I could dare say my old WK build was a lot better and efficient than running in circles and poking GWFs a couple of hundred times with 300 damage knives for 5 minutes straight to bring one down. Hit when unstoppable is down with the stun combo, run and hide when unstoppable is up, and as unstoppable ends (since Dazing Strike only takes like 8 secs to recharge), land the stun combo again. So every time the GWF is stoppable he is CCd and and hit with big attacks, every time unstoppable is up go back into stealth. Don't even need to risk going in close to land DF.
...
But ofcourse, since VP is dead that is also all dead and gone. It's a moot point now.
Such a shame.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That was an amazing post still laughing so hard, thanks
The problem here is you have very experienced PvPers telling you what to do. You don't want to do that because you got some high level PvPer to 1/2 health once while he was afk or too busy laughing at sly flourish to bother attacking and you think that makes your build viable.
It's not even close to optimal for PvP. Will you destroy newbie pugs who don't even have armor enchants? YES. Will you kill a top PvPer once and a while? YUP! Does your build still suck for PvP? OH YEAH.
You are getting pro tips here from very good/experienced players, heed them or don't. But do not argue, it has been proven OVER AND OVER in posts, in videos of matches, in videos of 1v1s, Bile semi-perma is the most effective build for PvP.
But it's whatever man, play how you want, just don't come on here and mislead people, there are PLENTY of bad players, we need more GOOD ones so let's help people run good solid proven builds.
If you are not in ITC or stealth it's FLS-TR-takedown-TR-IBS and you are at or below 1/2 health. I'm still close to full because you are hitting me with abilities that I can out regen... I go unstoppable, heal to full, if I get you with one more rotation you are pretty much done.
Will you kill me 1/10, yeah, maybe. And if that's the goal you set for your TR then carry on.
So who says I get hit with FLS, TR or IBS in the first place? MI's are not the only class with stealth, remember?
I'm pretty sure beating up a GWF with a shot of Dazing Strike + additional DF combos are a lot stronger in damage than poking it with knives or occasionally hitting it with DF when only ITC is up. That was actually one of the reasons my old build was better at dealing with GWFs - concentrated burst damage from a safe situation. Ah well. Good ol' times.
Maybe if you're on steamroller level. Are you at steamroller level?
But again, its all moot. Maybe when they restore VP to its old glory we could do a couple of practice rounds. As it is, with the fr!@#(ing 16 second recharge on a skill that does less than 1.0 second stun with average 2~3k damage even on crit... I'm now performing maybe at 20%? 30%? level of efficiency of what I once could dish out.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Because I'm good? NO I'm friggen terrible at GWF. It's an OP class period. I'm glad people can play it and do well and stroke their e-peens and feel good about themselves, but they know the truth.
Anyway back to you. YOURE RIGHT!!! You win. Your build is perfect and you are an amazing player. I'm sure you win everything always unless there was some unfair circumstance.
*rolls eyes*. Pugs... You could give them all rank 10's and they would argue that 7s are better....
Carry on.
*disclaimer*. No if you are a GWF I don't want to 1v1 you. I'm terrible, you are amazing, and you will win. (This goes to any and all GWFs everywhere always)
I bow down to your most adequate attitude and eloquent way of reasoning in regards to how intelligent discussions should be handled. Your reaction has certainly revealed a lot about yourself to the rest of us watching in the TR forums about just what kind of knowledge we may benefit from you in the future.
*snicker*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I would love to have this explained. I compared these two a lot (on my level 40 rogue) and it doesn't seem to make a dps difference. The much more important difference is the long setup time of Duelist Flurry, which can be interrupted by red areas you have to dodge. Is it because of the Deadly Momentum feat? I can imagine that it will be stronger with that, but as a Perma Stealth Rogue you go a different feat path anyways?
I'm not sure how it works low level, but DF does deal more damage than SF. If I had to estimate, with no weapon enchant, I'd say DF does 130% of the damage SF does in the same amount of time. There's also a bleed that ticks 4 times after a successful 3rd hit, which for me ranges from 600 to 2k per tick. Furthermore, DF hits many more times than SF, and applies weapon enchant damage each time. If you are using a Bilethorn or similar enchant, DF will be much more effective. Finally, but probably most importantly, when attacking from stealth, you generally assume that you'll land one hit before the enemy retaliates. If you are using SF, you can get 2 SF hits in, and then you'll probably get CCed. If its DF, you get CC immunity with the third strike, so you can go through the whole 3rd strike uninterrupted, and possibly move one of their CCs to cooldown. This gives the added benefit of giving you 2 seconds of CC immunity, so if your stealth rotation gets messed up, it can be used as a correction. This is the main reason I use DF. It's an offensive as well as defensive skill. This is also why it's discouraged to land the second hit of DF, as the enemy has enough time to prone you before you get your third hit off. Also, I believe DF is more likely to proc dazzling blades, because it hits more.
That being said, SF is much much easier to land than DF. Against GWFs, GFs, and TRs, DF is fairly easy to land. Against good HRs, it's nearly impossible. There are a number of good TRs who use SF, so I'm not sure why it's getting so much hate in this thread.
I do. It's simply because it doesn't fit the "Ooh, ohh, TR must be played with this exactl build only, and all others alternative choices in powers and stuff sucks" mental template some people have.
...
But I've actually seen some GWFs consistently repeat the process of evading the third set of flurries with sprint, and when they actually do that, landing DF against GWFs become equally difficult as well. Some GWFs actually do know how to use their sprint well.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Dude.. I tried having a conversation with you. You argued every single word I said. You're wrong. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Thats it, its over, good day.
*rolls eyes again* pugs...
I mean you got a level 40 arguing that Sly Flourish damage is the same as DF, do you realize theres a bleed attached? Did you know you get a huge DPS buff from deadly momentum? No you did NOT. Cause you're a pug.
How can you even comment if you don't even have a max level char? I just don't get it.
But argue away, I'm sure you'll be right eventually. *shrug*