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Is saboteur perma stealth viable?
showmelights
Member Posts: 39 Arc User
Hey guys, I might be taken as a **** for asking this but I've been wondering if a perma stealth saboteur trickster rogue focusing on criticals and gloaming cut would be viable. I saw this 6 months old video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ9TGxMqZg0) and it seemd very fun to me. I know months have passed and many patches have changed things but just wanted to ask if it would work 
If you don't mind I'd like to have an opinion about having these feats for a Saboteur http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13m0535:15z0z1:150000:100000&h=1&p=min
If you don't mind I'd like to have an opinion about having these feats for a Saboteur http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13m0535:15z0z1:150000:100000&h=1&p=min
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Enjoy crushing most things you run into once you learn how to play TR.
Sab is more than viable but pls get rid of that gloamin cut..dont even take the feat. It s still all about duelist.
However i cant just leave deadly momentum alone...5 stacks of it every duelist in mean...way too much damage and free crit severity
Edit: Oh, I thought you were talking about scoundrel. I personally like Exe a lot better for that, but I know people have said Sab is viable. You can also still get speed swindle as exe for a little extra runspeed at times.
I guess we can say you haven't met much TR's who are able to use Gloaming Cut with a consistent degree of success. Just like Morenthar, I'm confident I can take out chunks upon chunks out of the HP of PoB TRs who love using DF with my Gloaming Cut-based Stealth build and take their heads. The only ones I have trouble killing are those who vastly overgear my 13k TR. But otherwise, I can even go as far to say as Gloaming Cut can even be used properly in premade settings. When you have an At-Will that crits harder than a non-crit Lashing Blade, it's just wrong to not use it I say. It's slow, yes. But the slowness can be neutralized by strategic use.
Gloaming cut is good if feated and if you can time it right.
DF is good regardless of deadly momentum, if you can time it right.
SF is not bad however, it doesn't give you cc immunity like df or recharge your stealth bar like gc, It's a plain combo that takes a couple sec to get through the full combo animation and you are exposed while doing it.
Executioner is more crit focused, since a lot of people got their crit rate decreased by a lot and tenacity affects crits also, they decided to try other paragon trees (many rogues range from 36% to 40% crit with scoundrel set on an executioner build)
Scoundrel gives you a higher base dmg, and saboteur gives you more mobility and enhances your stealth abilities. (allows you to stalk people and prevent them from running away it is really nice.)
I have a survivalist Saboteur with ItC, SS, BaS, tenacious concealment and invisible infiltrator, Gloaming Cut and CoS, Bloodbath and Lurker, Cha and Int, silvery on def slots. Action Advantage for AP, instead of crit and and hp feats. I didn't bother having high Con because the point of playing this Sab is to stay out of sight most of the time, and get as many dailies as possible. It can stand against several attackers but it lacks the power to kill them all, more of an opportunistic assassin and group support kind of guy. Flexible rotation, allows you to commit mistakes.
My main is an Executioner with 40% crit on profound scoundrel(switching boons and 2 items for deflect soon, currently 21% deflect trying to get another 2 to 3% will end with 38% or less crit) ItC, SS, PotB/LB/BaS (depends on who i'm going against) DF and CoS, skillful infiltrator and tenacious concealment, SE and Lurkers. Con and Int, radiants on def slots. P.Bile, Barkshield and Soulforged available for swapping. Great for 1x1 or 1x2, but it can get overwhelmed by multiple enemies. Sensitive rotation.
Both are very similar but at the same time they play completely different, the executioner gets more kills per match and does more dmg, he stays out of stealth more often and engage in combat all the time, but the saboteur is way harder to kill, my sab rogue gets a free stealth refill and dmg increase immediately after popping any daily, and the BaS dummy gives me lots of AP and dailies, you can switch tenacious concealment for tactics if you are not likely to get hit by aoe and stuff and have dailies available all the time, bile can mess him up big time but you can't bile what you can't see so it depends on the player's skill.
Aw too bad about the Underhand Tactics, sounds really nice on paper but still thanks for the tip, otherwise would have been wasting 5 precious feat points.
Nice rogues and thanks for answering
Check banelorne's guide he has a build for rogues without high Int, I ran gloaming cut build without Int before just like you said and it does work, it's just tighter,you become dependent on GC with less room for mistakes.
Hey Crys. I tested it in Preview a month back, and I'm highly confident that it's really not working. I tested Stealthed DPS with and without Underhanded Tactics and got the same results. Even if the bonus is multiplicative, there's really no change in the average DPS. If someone else can double check for the community, it'd be very helpful.
i did the test a while ago with naissur. , it doesnt work.
I could've put the points to so much good use elsewhere. Oh well.
EDIT: But the other stealth based feats (Cunning Stalker, Expert Sneak, Sneak of Shadows) work, right? *being anxious now*
Yep, I saw it on Naissur's thread some months back and decided to check it out for myself. Found the same thing and I did it pretty extensively too.
Yeah it would work really well with a high Stealth build, but sadly it just doesn't work. If it did work, I'd take it for sure. 20% increased CA Damage is a decent boost in Stealth damage and would also increase the DPS of Stealth PoB users.
As for Cunning Stalker, Expert Sneak and Sneak of Shadows, they are 100% working. The changes those feats make are pretty noticeable as a Sab. I respec-ed to Sab myself some weeks back ever since I completed my Scoundrel set. The loss in crit from gear really hurts so I decided to take a different approach and increase my flat damage instead.
reporting the words of a wise man who like me loves to do some math before taking feats because they SEEMS good:
Let's look at this crit chance, 41.1%. That means 58.9% are not crits, so 20.615% of the time you will proc Nimble Blade, which will do 20% more damage on these hits. Let's take an average spread of 100,000 damage and assume the crits/non crits will be the exact percentages above. i.e.the crits will be 41,100 damage * crit severity (assuming max of 265 including pvorp and feats) = 108,915, and the other 58,900 will be split, 38,285 damage for non-nimble blade, and 20,615*1.2 = 24,738 for nimble blade procs.
So what do we have here for an overall increase?
Without nimble blade we would have 108,915+58,900=167,815
With nimble blade we have 108,915+38,285+24,738= 171,938
So a 2.46% increase.
Now what are the other options here?
Critical Teamwork - 5% chance to crit for you and your party
Another option is drop deadly momentum, so let's look at both.
5% more chance to crit would give using the same base 100k example above, 46,100*2.65 or 122,165 + 53,900 damage from non crits = 176,065. This actually is a more effective feat than nimble, and remember this is your damage, increased by 4.92%, your teammates also get the 5% crit so it truly is a far more effective feat.
Deadly Momentum is a little more difficult to calculate, but I already know how this will turn out so let's assume you have 100% uptime on this extra severity. This time since we should have decided to go with critical teamwork, we'll use the numbers there as now we're trying to decide between deadly momentum and nimble blade for damage. 46,100*2.5 = 115,250 + 53,900 = 169,150. So this would be 4.1% damage increase assuming 100% uptime on this. How often are you landing flurry and gaining this advantage? If it is less than 50% of the time you are in combat (which I think most TRs would agree that it is,) then you are better served by having nimble blade for damage than deadly momentum.
END
so basically an executioner build in the best scenario is an upgrade of 4,92+4.1 = 9%
an executioner build with 10 feats wasted in scoundrel is 4.92+4.1+2.46= 11.46 % ( wasted because you either take a bugged feat or temporary hitpoints halved in pvp )
then look:
1 ****ing feat of sab ( sneak of shadow ) is a flat 10% more a another 5% of armor reduction from expert sneak.
meanwhile you have a slow, increased action points gain, more dodge, more movement.
keep in mind that the comparison is pretty ****ed up by the assumption of perfect vorpal and by the fact that they are comparing stuffs in the same paragon tree with the same crit severity but you get the point: you will not always have 5 stacks of deadly momentum, you have no perfect vorpal but you will always have stealth! so that +9% is probably a 14% in comparison with saboteur but just potentially. realistically speaking it will be a flat 10% but you wasted 15 points on feats!
more you all forgot about dazzling blades...the most OP thing in all the trees.
I hope no one of you will read this wall of text because you are going to copy me
a last thing..you can increase your damage even more without changing your playstyle but this will remain a secret (just read the feats....its obvious)
As such,
I think the Sab and Scoundrel are really good post PvP patch and there are some very good players, like Morenthar, running these alternate builds.
I have gone back to almost exclusively using Gloaming Cut in PvP for a couple weeks now. I used to alternate between it and SF. When your target drops below 50% Gloaming cut hits like a freight train. It's all about using it effectively which takes practice.
I know when Toadesfaella and I group up, it's pretty darn fun with very successful results.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
it's been a while since i had that feat, but doesn't it sometimes proc 2-3 times simultaneously? still not much of an increase even when it does except for spike damage i guess.
i also remember it being mentioned somewhere that effects that buff non-critical damage also affect critical hits too.....but not sure where that was said