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Class Balancing for both PVE and PVP
inthefade462
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Warning: Wall of Text. Been thinking about this for a while, across many threads, with feedback from notable forum community members.
While many of us had hoped that PVE and PVP rulesets would eventually be separated, and had hoped that tenacity would be the vehicle in which they would achieve this, it's become clear that separate rules for abilities in PVP and PVE are not going to happen, and that Class balance is almost exclusively based on PVP.
So with that in mind, I would like to propose a list of changes that meet the following criteria (this is your TLDR):
1. Easily implemented. When possible, use existing code from other parts of the game to increase likelihood of being implemented. Otherwise, simple changes/tweaks to base numbers in the db.
2. Achieve some semblance of Balance for the classes in both PVP and PVE.
3. Balance is focused around PTR GWF as the new normal. for pve dps, CW dmg will be brought down to this level, while other classes PVE DPS will be brought up to this level. The goal is to achieve this while having as minimal impact on pvp balance as possible. Likewise, DC and CW Control/utility will be increased in PVP to the point that they are as competitive in PVP as GWF/HR/GF/TR.
4. As dual spec is an often asked for but an ignored feature request, balance cannot be achieved relying on it. Thus players must choose to build towards one or the other. You cannot be great at everything all the time. The end goal is a viable build option existing for each class for PVE and for PVP, but not necessarily at the same time.
Specific Class changes:
GWF: As is (PTR). they can build Destroyer for purely PVE DPS, or they can build Sentinel for PVP survivability. they cannot have both. As a melee class, PVE destroyer has just enough survivability (with unstoppable) to survive fighting in melee range but are not "tanks" in any sense of the word.
TR: Caveat, permastealth is already on the docket to be changed in some way. There's no way to tell where TRs will fall in PVP usefulness until after these changes take place. For now these changes focus on improving TR PVE while having minimal impact in PVP.
new class mechanic (not the passive feature's you slot, the all the time abilities at the top of your power screen like Stealth, arcane mastery, or chill):
Poisoned Blades. Every attack from TR deals X additional poison damage. This is a direct damage proc on every hit, not a DoT. While increasing the dmg of all TR attacks whether they are aoe or single target, This greatly improves single target dmg on skills like Duelist Flurry which hits multiple times in quick succession.
Tenacity resists 100% of this dmg, making it purely PVE dmg increase. The coding for something like this already exists with Black Ice dmg which is a seperate dmg type that can be ignored 100% in certain situations (such as pets ignoring the bonus black ice dmg in pvp)
"X" can be tweaked until TRs are competitive for paingiver. in more add heavy dungeons they won't be as competitive, but in more boss focused dungeons they should be. In dungeons with long single target fights like MC and VT they should top the charts against equally geared/skilled players of other classes. This also increases the desirability of weapon enchants such as bile, plague, flaming, etc.
Increase the duration of smoke bomb to 7 seconds. This does make them slightly better vs melee characters in PVP but is necessary to increase their survivability in melee range in PVE.
CW: As mentioned above CWs will need a dmg nerf to bring them down to the new normal, which will match GWF, HR, and TR when all are spec'd for PVE DPS. This can be accomplished by tinkering with base dmg numbers. The main change for CWs is seperation of AOE dmg skills and Control skills. CWs who wish to remain purely dmg focused may do so but at the loss of virtually all control. CWs who do this should be aware that without said control focusing on purely DPS will often result in dying, so care must be taken, such as sacrificing some DPS skills for the improved control ones, or relying on a tankier party member to control aggro, as this will benefit them greatly. Likewise Control Skills are expanded and improved allowing a CW to focus purely on control while still being valuable to a party.
I'm thinking something along the lines of a 50% increase in the base duration of control spells.
Tenacity remains the same and CW's ignore a portion of it. Currently their control is almost nil in pvp, so a baseline increase in duration of control abilities should allow them to be of great benefit in PVE while also having reasonable amount of control in PVP. instead of 0.5 sec duration abilities they should be closer to 2 seconds.
Specific ability changes:
Damage skills:
Chill Strike: the stun is replaced with a momentary interrupt only, mastery remains the same.
Sudden Storm: This skill remains the same, though the width of the splash area is slightly increased allowing it to more easily hit more targets. unlimited target cap remains.
Shard of the Endless Avalanche: initial shardslam prone is left as is (rewarding skill with aiming it), explosion prone is changed into a momentary interrupt only.
Icy Rays: Remains unchanged, though the immobilize duration is not increased by 50% like all other CC durations, so it remains the same as live.
Oppressive Force*: Daze is replaced with an initial, momentary interrupt only. unlimited target cap remains.
*yes OF is actually the better control daily, but it's also the better dmg daily, and having to choose between the two, decided to leave OF as the DPS daily.
Control Skills:
Entangling Force: the normal version of this is replaced with the current mastery version, meaning that slotting it in a normal encounter slot results in firm CC "strangle" on the target while still pulling surrounding mobs towards the entangled target. increase target cap to 8 from 5. Mastery. This becomes a hard control that ignores immunity (though not boss immunity, but things like elementals, maws, etc which are normally immune are now affected). In pvp this bypasses player immunities such as ITC, villains menace, and unstoppable.
Icy Terrain: Increase the AOE size by about 30%, and slightly increase the duration (1-2 seconds) to make it easier for a CW to maintain IT. unlimited target cap remains. Mastery: The momentary immobilize is replaced with the 2-3s stun from Chill Strike, turning this into a targetted mass AOE hard CC.
Repel: increase target cap to 3. Mastery: increase target cap to 10.
Steal Time: dmg reduced. initial slow is replaced with a daze while casting. Mastery remains the same.
Arcane Singularity: add an initial interrupt to this power, otherwise it remains the same.
Skills not mentioned (Ray of enfeeblement, CoI, MoF stuff, etc) remain otherwise unchanged, except CC duration noted above. Oh also, FI increased target cap to 15 to match Singularity.
note: this does leave CW slightly more powerful than other classes, given the number of unlimited target cap abilities. Previously CWs maintained control with insane AP gain which I don't see returning as it's too hard to balance with DPS CWs, so instead, allow CW's control abilities to actually control things like they should. The initial interrupt that's replacing the CC on the damage abilities is to allow DPS CWs to maintain a similiar playstyle as current, where those CC abilities are used to cancel mob AOEs while dealing damage, so that they do not need to dodge and cancel their casting. They won't, however, lock down mobs while casting these DD abilities, and will be taking dmg from the mobs instead. Also this still leaves CW's in the best position as far as being viable in both PVE and PVP as it's merely power selection that needs to change, not their entire build. but CWs will always be OP in this game which is an obvious, unspoken decree from upon high, given the state of the game from beta through Mod 3.
GF: The problem with GF is the perception/reality that they slow down groups. Let's speed them up.
New Class Mechanic (same as above for TR, always on ability, not slotted). Conditioning. increase run speed of GF by 25%. They are the least mobile class and shift slows them to a crawl instead of increasing their speed the way sprint/dodge does. With the way aggro works and importance of initial aggro, they need to be able to move ahead of parties and gather initial mob aggro, not lag behind the party and try to pull aggro off of the dps once they "catch up".
Cut about half a second off the animation times of GF abilities, especially switching to/from block, and marking. Marking should be near instant. The combination of faster block speeds as well as movement speed should allow GFs to transition from blocking CC and then physically moving to avoid damage. This should greatly increase their ability to "tank" in PVE without messing with mitigation numbers which are already fine in PVP.
all +Threat converted into the actual damage it represents in threat. If this were like other games with clearly defined roles, then having a tank class with +Threat in addition to their damage would matter. Also other classes would need to carefully manage their damage output to not outaggro the tank. In this game it is not only unnecessary but actually counter productive. The threat isn't enough to matter (hard taunts such as Knight's Challenge and aggravating strike is what GFs use to hold aggro, when they bother to do so) and it doesn't appear on any charts (such as paingiver) which, as a perception problem, amplifies GFs troubles getting groups.
What this means:
GF's 35% additional threat from attacks translates into a 35% DPS increase in base dmg of all attacks.
Enforced Threat: Target cap changed from 8 to unlimited. The +threat from this is converted into raw damage, making this the highest dmg ability a GF has.
I'd love to change the tab ability but as they just reworked it, adding a focused mark, etc, so I'd suggest the following enhancements to what Mark does, in addition to the 8% debuff:
Placing a mark places a Damage over time ability that ticks for X damage until the mark is removed (such as when the mob attacks you). Focused Mark DoT deals double the damage of normal mark, and is not removed when the mob attacks you.
Class Feature Enhanced Mark: Doubles the damage of Mark and focused mark (ie focused is now 4x dmg dot).
as with TR, the X dmg should be balanced to the point where a GF who grabs initial aggro on mobs, & focuses on maintaining it, doesn't lose it. The GF should control the battlefield. Not in the way that the Control Wizard crowd controls mobs, but mobs should be where the GF wants them to be, and with a GF in your party, they should never be on your cleric/ranger/cw, etc. These changes will also bump GF dmg up quite a reasonable amount on paingiver charts, so that parties don't feel hindered by bringing a GF, damage wise.
HR: I honestly do not know where to start with HR. The mod 3 changes on PTR are basically the opposite of what needed to be done, damage wise, but the increase in buffs/group utility are also great as well. Since they do not want HR's just spamming split shot then HR's need an increase in encounter dmg and/or encounter utility to make them more attractive than just spamming at wills.
Regardless, Archery HR need their total dmg increased to that of GWF/CW/TR. Combat HR are probably going to be too powerful in PVP but they can fix that if and when it's needed without impacting PVE dps.
DC: DC's are in the unique position of being perfectly fine in PVE. They are useful at all gear levels from low geared party's "healer" to higher geared party's "buffer/debuff". they Enhance the party they are in by % amounts, meaning they scale perfectly with the party in PVE. But healing deppression has put a damper on them in PVP, and I don't think the dev's are willing to budge on that much, they just reworked righteousness, and are busy making sure healing depression impacts everything that heals, so i'm not sure that more healing is the route they want DCs to go in pvp. Instead, I'd suggest adding some more control abilities to the existing DC powers for PVP. I'll defer to the opinions of PVP DCs, but to start:
Chains: Now Stuns in addition to slow/root.
Sunburst: Non-divine interrupts in addition to heal. Divine still knocks back.
Prophecy of Doom: Movement speed decreases as this power ticks down, after x seconds speed is reduced to a crawl. once it procs target is hard rooted.
Thoughts, comments, flame away.
While many of us had hoped that PVE and PVP rulesets would eventually be separated, and had hoped that tenacity would be the vehicle in which they would achieve this, it's become clear that separate rules for abilities in PVP and PVE are not going to happen, and that Class balance is almost exclusively based on PVP.
So with that in mind, I would like to propose a list of changes that meet the following criteria (this is your TLDR):
1. Easily implemented. When possible, use existing code from other parts of the game to increase likelihood of being implemented. Otherwise, simple changes/tweaks to base numbers in the db.
2. Achieve some semblance of Balance for the classes in both PVP and PVE.
3. Balance is focused around PTR GWF as the new normal. for pve dps, CW dmg will be brought down to this level, while other classes PVE DPS will be brought up to this level. The goal is to achieve this while having as minimal impact on pvp balance as possible. Likewise, DC and CW Control/utility will be increased in PVP to the point that they are as competitive in PVP as GWF/HR/GF/TR.
4. As dual spec is an often asked for but an ignored feature request, balance cannot be achieved relying on it. Thus players must choose to build towards one or the other. You cannot be great at everything all the time. The end goal is a viable build option existing for each class for PVE and for PVP, but not necessarily at the same time.
Specific Class changes:
GWF: As is (PTR). they can build Destroyer for purely PVE DPS, or they can build Sentinel for PVP survivability. they cannot have both. As a melee class, PVE destroyer has just enough survivability (with unstoppable) to survive fighting in melee range but are not "tanks" in any sense of the word.
TR: Caveat, permastealth is already on the docket to be changed in some way. There's no way to tell where TRs will fall in PVP usefulness until after these changes take place. For now these changes focus on improving TR PVE while having minimal impact in PVP.
new class mechanic (not the passive feature's you slot, the all the time abilities at the top of your power screen like Stealth, arcane mastery, or chill):
Poisoned Blades. Every attack from TR deals X additional poison damage. This is a direct damage proc on every hit, not a DoT. While increasing the dmg of all TR attacks whether they are aoe or single target, This greatly improves single target dmg on skills like Duelist Flurry which hits multiple times in quick succession.
Tenacity resists 100% of this dmg, making it purely PVE dmg increase. The coding for something like this already exists with Black Ice dmg which is a seperate dmg type that can be ignored 100% in certain situations (such as pets ignoring the bonus black ice dmg in pvp)
"X" can be tweaked until TRs are competitive for paingiver. in more add heavy dungeons they won't be as competitive, but in more boss focused dungeons they should be. In dungeons with long single target fights like MC and VT they should top the charts against equally geared/skilled players of other classes. This also increases the desirability of weapon enchants such as bile, plague, flaming, etc.
Increase the duration of smoke bomb to 7 seconds. This does make them slightly better vs melee characters in PVP but is necessary to increase their survivability in melee range in PVE.
CW: As mentioned above CWs will need a dmg nerf to bring them down to the new normal, which will match GWF, HR, and TR when all are spec'd for PVE DPS. This can be accomplished by tinkering with base dmg numbers. The main change for CWs is seperation of AOE dmg skills and Control skills. CWs who wish to remain purely dmg focused may do so but at the loss of virtually all control. CWs who do this should be aware that without said control focusing on purely DPS will often result in dying, so care must be taken, such as sacrificing some DPS skills for the improved control ones, or relying on a tankier party member to control aggro, as this will benefit them greatly. Likewise Control Skills are expanded and improved allowing a CW to focus purely on control while still being valuable to a party.
I'm thinking something along the lines of a 50% increase in the base duration of control spells.
Tenacity remains the same and CW's ignore a portion of it. Currently their control is almost nil in pvp, so a baseline increase in duration of control abilities should allow them to be of great benefit in PVE while also having reasonable amount of control in PVP. instead of 0.5 sec duration abilities they should be closer to 2 seconds.
Specific ability changes:
Damage skills:
Chill Strike: the stun is replaced with a momentary interrupt only, mastery remains the same.
Sudden Storm: This skill remains the same, though the width of the splash area is slightly increased allowing it to more easily hit more targets. unlimited target cap remains.
Shard of the Endless Avalanche: initial shardslam prone is left as is (rewarding skill with aiming it), explosion prone is changed into a momentary interrupt only.
Icy Rays: Remains unchanged, though the immobilize duration is not increased by 50% like all other CC durations, so it remains the same as live.
Oppressive Force*: Daze is replaced with an initial, momentary interrupt only. unlimited target cap remains.
*yes OF is actually the better control daily, but it's also the better dmg daily, and having to choose between the two, decided to leave OF as the DPS daily.
Control Skills:
Entangling Force: the normal version of this is replaced with the current mastery version, meaning that slotting it in a normal encounter slot results in firm CC "strangle" on the target while still pulling surrounding mobs towards the entangled target. increase target cap to 8 from 5. Mastery. This becomes a hard control that ignores immunity (though not boss immunity, but things like elementals, maws, etc which are normally immune are now affected). In pvp this bypasses player immunities such as ITC, villains menace, and unstoppable.
Icy Terrain: Increase the AOE size by about 30%, and slightly increase the duration (1-2 seconds) to make it easier for a CW to maintain IT. unlimited target cap remains. Mastery: The momentary immobilize is replaced with the 2-3s stun from Chill Strike, turning this into a targetted mass AOE hard CC.
Repel: increase target cap to 3. Mastery: increase target cap to 10.
Steal Time: dmg reduced. initial slow is replaced with a daze while casting. Mastery remains the same.
Arcane Singularity: add an initial interrupt to this power, otherwise it remains the same.
Skills not mentioned (Ray of enfeeblement, CoI, MoF stuff, etc) remain otherwise unchanged, except CC duration noted above. Oh also, FI increased target cap to 15 to match Singularity.
note: this does leave CW slightly more powerful than other classes, given the number of unlimited target cap abilities. Previously CWs maintained control with insane AP gain which I don't see returning as it's too hard to balance with DPS CWs, so instead, allow CW's control abilities to actually control things like they should. The initial interrupt that's replacing the CC on the damage abilities is to allow DPS CWs to maintain a similiar playstyle as current, where those CC abilities are used to cancel mob AOEs while dealing damage, so that they do not need to dodge and cancel their casting. They won't, however, lock down mobs while casting these DD abilities, and will be taking dmg from the mobs instead. Also this still leaves CW's in the best position as far as being viable in both PVE and PVP as it's merely power selection that needs to change, not their entire build. but CWs will always be OP in this game which is an obvious, unspoken decree from upon high, given the state of the game from beta through Mod 3.
GF: The problem with GF is the perception/reality that they slow down groups. Let's speed them up.
New Class Mechanic (same as above for TR, always on ability, not slotted). Conditioning. increase run speed of GF by 25%. They are the least mobile class and shift slows them to a crawl instead of increasing their speed the way sprint/dodge does. With the way aggro works and importance of initial aggro, they need to be able to move ahead of parties and gather initial mob aggro, not lag behind the party and try to pull aggro off of the dps once they "catch up".
Cut about half a second off the animation times of GF abilities, especially switching to/from block, and marking. Marking should be near instant. The combination of faster block speeds as well as movement speed should allow GFs to transition from blocking CC and then physically moving to avoid damage. This should greatly increase their ability to "tank" in PVE without messing with mitigation numbers which are already fine in PVP.
all +Threat converted into the actual damage it represents in threat. If this were like other games with clearly defined roles, then having a tank class with +Threat in addition to their damage would matter. Also other classes would need to carefully manage their damage output to not outaggro the tank. In this game it is not only unnecessary but actually counter productive. The threat isn't enough to matter (hard taunts such as Knight's Challenge and aggravating strike is what GFs use to hold aggro, when they bother to do so) and it doesn't appear on any charts (such as paingiver) which, as a perception problem, amplifies GFs troubles getting groups.
What this means:
GF's 35% additional threat from attacks translates into a 35% DPS increase in base dmg of all attacks.
Enforced Threat: Target cap changed from 8 to unlimited. The +threat from this is converted into raw damage, making this the highest dmg ability a GF has.
I'd love to change the tab ability but as they just reworked it, adding a focused mark, etc, so I'd suggest the following enhancements to what Mark does, in addition to the 8% debuff:
Placing a mark places a Damage over time ability that ticks for X damage until the mark is removed (such as when the mob attacks you). Focused Mark DoT deals double the damage of normal mark, and is not removed when the mob attacks you.
Class Feature Enhanced Mark: Doubles the damage of Mark and focused mark (ie focused is now 4x dmg dot).
as with TR, the X dmg should be balanced to the point where a GF who grabs initial aggro on mobs, & focuses on maintaining it, doesn't lose it. The GF should control the battlefield. Not in the way that the Control Wizard crowd controls mobs, but mobs should be where the GF wants them to be, and with a GF in your party, they should never be on your cleric/ranger/cw, etc. These changes will also bump GF dmg up quite a reasonable amount on paingiver charts, so that parties don't feel hindered by bringing a GF, damage wise.
HR: I honestly do not know where to start with HR. The mod 3 changes on PTR are basically the opposite of what needed to be done, damage wise, but the increase in buffs/group utility are also great as well. Since they do not want HR's just spamming split shot then HR's need an increase in encounter dmg and/or encounter utility to make them more attractive than just spamming at wills.
Regardless, Archery HR need their total dmg increased to that of GWF/CW/TR. Combat HR are probably going to be too powerful in PVP but they can fix that if and when it's needed without impacting PVE dps.
DC: DC's are in the unique position of being perfectly fine in PVE. They are useful at all gear levels from low geared party's "healer" to higher geared party's "buffer/debuff". they Enhance the party they are in by % amounts, meaning they scale perfectly with the party in PVE. But healing deppression has put a damper on them in PVP, and I don't think the dev's are willing to budge on that much, they just reworked righteousness, and are busy making sure healing depression impacts everything that heals, so i'm not sure that more healing is the route they want DCs to go in pvp. Instead, I'd suggest adding some more control abilities to the existing DC powers for PVP. I'll defer to the opinions of PVP DCs, but to start:
Chains: Now Stuns in addition to slow/root.
Sunburst: Non-divine interrupts in addition to heal. Divine still knocks back.
Prophecy of Doom: Movement speed decreases as this power ticks down, after x seconds speed is reduced to a crawl. once it procs target is hard rooted.
Thoughts, comments, flame away.
Post edited by inthefade462 on
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Comments
Players are still going to want to do things as quickly/easily as they always have, path of least resistance, etc etc.
The idea is that players will opt for a CONTROL wizard (to lock down all non-cc immune mobs) or a GF, who accomplishes the same thing by having all the mobs focused on him and then avoiding/blocking the dmg. The GF option gives you a tank to deal with the CC immune mobs and will deal at minimum twice-thrice the damage of the CONTROL wizard.
From there parties will likely opt for 3 DPS classes (DPS CW, HR, TR, GWF) and a DC if available, but all class combinations would work. Groups with a CONTROL wizard in lieu of a GF would likely opt for a TR as one of their DPS classes as their improved single target dmg can melt through the larger, CC immune mobs and bosses like butter.
A rainbow party makes any dungeon easy mode in terms of possibility of dying, while more stacked parties still maintain their ability to speed through dungeons, while allowing any class to participate and be useful in those runs.
Huge can of worms on that one.
Tanks can't control mass mob agro. (GF). Currently the only thing stopping any party from being destroyed is the prones from Shards. And the brief 3 second stun from Steal Time. You can't disconnect the damage from the Control Portion because they were designed togather.
CW AoEs are designed specifically for control. And more specifically Spellstorm's Eye of the Storm Passive. The reason Mages actually do so much damage in mass mob situations.... but their damage is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in PvP (yes you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who says otherwise)... Is because of this passive.
Here's the Key...
Eye of the Storm procs and allows Mages to Crit on all attacks for 3 seconds. It has a base 3% chance to proc... per mob (5% if fully specced). But that multiplies directly by the number of mobs you throw at a mage until its almost a good 60% chance with certain spells increasing their damage to enormous levels.
BUT... it only works on mass mobs as it was designed as a Crowd Control ability. SO... the more mobs you throw at a mage, the stronger he gets... the less mobs you throw at a mage, the weaker he gets.
Hence now you understand why in PvP mages are pretty much known to have little to no damage in comparison to other classes. Because their damage was always lower... unless you throw a ton of mobs at them, then their damage skyrockets, as it was design as a crowd control ability.. not an actual fighting ability.
You cannot nerf their base damage, or it has disastrous consequences in PvP. And Eye of the Storm ONLY works on mass mobs reliably. Which is what it was designed for.... aka... crowd control. Base CW single target damage is not very good, as people are finding out in PvP.... where you're only fighting one or two "mobs" not 10 at once.
Throw 10 mobs at them, they look like a god, throw 1 or two, and you can see some serious holes in their abilities.
That's the current problem. Originally the CW class was designed for Mass Mob encounters (Aka crowd control damage) with weaker single target damage used in conjunction with those Single Target control powers like Entangling Force, allowing them just enough to be able to win in single combat. This all came crashing down with Tenacity.
The current situation is a catch 22... if you nerf the base damage... it kills it entirely in PvP.
I'll speak mainly from the CW point of view since that is my main and, quite frankly, that is the one that I love playing the most.
First, I'd like to remind everyone that the "control" in Control Wizard does not mean only control in terms of positioning or stunning of mobs. *Damage is also a form of control*. A dead mob is a controlled mob. This is completely consistent with the D&D definition of control wizard. That being said, I am totally in favor of making CWs choose between focusing EITHER on control via positioning, OR control via damage.
But instead of doing this by changing base damage amounts, do this by reworking the feat trees, just like the Destroyer and Instigator feat trees were reworked for GWF. (Although in the CW's case, it may require reworking some of the heoric feats as well.) Basically, tone down some of the AOE damage-based feats that are available to all CWs, and make the really useful AOE damage feats only available to the control-via-damage CW by placing those feats deep in one of the feat trees.
So if, for example, the "base" Oppressive Force did X damage per mob and had a target cap of Y, CWs could choose to EITHER increase X, OR increase Y (perhaps making Y infinite), by their selection of appropriate feats.
So if we take your example of changing Shard such that the shardplosion only results in a momentary stun instead of a prone, then CWs would have to choose between EITHER increasing the damage of Shard (as in the current Transcended Master feat), OR converting the stun into a prone like it operates now.
Second, your analysis seems to revolve around groups that are interested in completing dungeons *quickly*. I would question whether this scenario ought to be the one around which class balancing changes are to be made. The truth of the matter is, if one is not interested in how long a dungeon run takes, any dungeon can be successfully completed by reasonably competent at-level players with reasonably good gear by *ANY* team composition, with perhaps one or two exceptions. (But see below.) So is it *really* necessary to commit to such a drastic level of class balancing? If the inherent design of dungeons, i.e. full of CC-able adds, isn't changed, then there will continually be a need for stacked CWs to make the run go faster, REGARDLESS of any sort of class balance changes that occur, because for efficient runs, *dungeon design drives team composition*. If dungeons were full of CC-immune elites like maws or driders or rimefire golems, then there would be almost no need for CWs and teams would be full of GWFs and (pre-nerf) TRs instead. If dungeons were full of minibosses that could one-shot squishy classes (think mini-Fulmis, but 50 of them), then teams would be full of GFs and tanky GWFs and healbot DCs instead, and maybe only one CW for debuffing purposes only. But since dungeons are not full of these things, they are full of adds that are easily controlled both by position and by damage, by CWs, then CWs will always be the preferred class for completing dungeons *quickly* regardless of how you change the classes around. THAT is why CWs have been the "OP class" since Open Beta. The only way to change that is to change essential dungeon mechanics, which likely isn't going to happen.
Third, the most notable exception that more or less requires 2+ CWs in order to complete is the Draco fight in Castle Never. It also turns out to be the most lucrative farming dungeon in the game, so many players rightfully complain that they never even get to see the Draco fight because they aren't a CW. Then while wholesale changes to dungeon mechanics are unlikely to occur, if this *one* fight were retuned to make it more accommodating to a wider diversity of team composition, I think a great many of the complaints about the "OPness" of CWs would be reduced because more people would be getting a share of the loot. And quite frankly this final fight is ridiculous anyway with its constant add spammage. What if this fight were retuned such that the number of CC-able adds were reduced (fewer wights/skeletons/soldiers), but the Red Wizards became CC immune? Then you would WANT classes with high single-target burst capabilities (such as TRs and melee HRs) to take down the Red Wizards quickly before their AOE spam wiped the whole party. Just a thought of how this one single fight might be restored to sanity.
Fourth, when thinking about nerfing CW damage, you also have to think about the leveling up process. Cryptic has decided, for better or for worse, that players should be able to level up completely by solo play. I will tell you that there were some times in the leveling up process that were challenging for a leveling-up CW, and nerfing base CW damage would make those situations even more challenging, perhaps virtually impossible. I am thinking particularly of Icespire Peak and Mount Hotenow (because - surprise, surprise - these zones feature many CC-immune elites, Rimefire Golems and Fire Giants/Magma Brutes). This also speaks against the idea that maybe nerfing base damage amounts isn't the answer, but instead reworking feats to either grant more damage output or more positional control.
Just some more food for thought. Thanks again for your excellent contribution to the discussion.
I urge you to read (or reread) my post as everything you've brought up has already been addressed.
If you feel that the nerf to base dmg (which I never specified, only equated them to PTR GWF) is too much, then naturally, you are stating that the nerf to GWF's on PTR is too much, and you should be lending your voice to that thread instead of this one.
Keep in mind that this is a sort of olive branch to the CW community after discussing this issue with players like pers3phone. the CW class has been driven down the wrong road since the beginning with all the nerfs to control/ap and buffs to damage, but you can't exactly un-ring that bell. My original thoughts on the matter was to reduce CW dmg to roughly 30-35% of its current dmg forcing all CWs to focus on control. But some are quite fond of the current CW playstyle (myself included) and the option to remain a DPS class should remain. However the only way to balance this is to decouple damage from control and to buff control to the point where it's an attractive alternative to pure DPS.
and obviously as you stated CW single target dmg is quite weak, and it's quite unlikely to improve. CW's balance pass is coming and if you believe that the dev's will be boosting anything on the CW rather than hacking away at the classes dmg, making no concessions like I have in this thread, then you are mistaken. Given the option as I have laid out, why would a CW focus on dealing single target dmg in PVP, when the option to crowd control the opposing team actually exists? CWs would change from "floaters" to point holders, but would be quite good at it given the changes I listed.
Let me back up a minute and explain what balance is, as I feel that many CW posters do not understand what's coming.
Statement 1: All classes that focus on PVE DPS should be competitive for paingiver. specific nuances such as more than average add focus or large single target boss fight focus will shift it towards one extreme or the other but in general all dps classes that are pve dps spec'd should be competitive amongst themselves. this is the first, but not the only goal needed to achieve balance.
Statement 2: If that were the only goal, then the CW would still be more desirable than any other class, simply because they also bring the greatest amount of control in addition to their damage. Thus CW dmg and CW control must be decoupled for balance to be achieved.
If you do not agree with the above two statements then i'm not sure how beneficial your opinion is in this, or any other class balance thread.
The end goal should be as follows:
CW brings 100% damage to the party. It has very minor control (mainly interrupts) by focusing on 100% dmg. The CW has the option to bring less than 100% dmg and add some vital amount of control, at the expense of DPS abilities, by switching 1 or more DPS powers out for control powers.
GWF brings 100% damage to the party. It has very minor survivability (mainly unstoppable, which is necessary to survive in melee range) by focusing on 100% dmg. The GWF has the option to bring less than 100% dmg and add some measure of survivability, at the expense of DPS, by switching to more tank oriented gear and/or specing into more tank oriented feats.
HR brings 100% damage to the party. It has very minor buffing abilities by focusing on 100% dmg. The HR has the option to bring less than 100% dmg and add some greater amount of team buffs, at the expense of DPS, by specing into more nature/combat oriented feats.
TR brings 100% damage to the party. It has the option to sacrifice some DPS for some very minor survivability and cc abilities by switching some encounters, but the majority of its damage comes from its single target focused abilities, and his specialty is massive single target damage, in lieu of AOE.
for the rest of the classes, the DC is fine. as a healer or as a primary buff/debuff the DC is as good as the party he's in, and scales perfectly fine in PVE.
the GF is still the "tank" class, but in a game where the tank role isn't necessary, I've given the GF enough damage boosts to be competitive (if the rest are 100%, he's sitting at 60-75%) and enough battlefield control to rival the the Control focused CW. He lacks the ability to stop the mobs from attacking all together the way a CW can, but has enough damage, mobility, and threat controlling abilities to control who those mobs attack and limit their impact on the party.
This is some semblance of balance in PVE. It accomplishes it with the least impact to PVP as possible, as PVP balance is an entirely different animal and for far too long PVE balance has been decimated in the name of PVP balance. The classes that need improvements in PVP (CW, and DC) are either fine in pve already (DC) or are OP to the extreme (CW), so the recommendations i've made for PVP changes for them focus on improving their utility/control in PVP without further imbalancing them in PVE. For the CW, that means seperating dmg from control and allowing the CW to focus on either. Control will be king in PVP and PVE, while aoe DPS will still be just as viable for PVE as it is now.
I don't see defence taken into account here. Does it somehow cancel out in your equation? or do you feel it is not important enough to include. Raising damage on a Gf by 35% in pvp would be kinda out there. Not that i'd complain, I play a GF, but wow.
I already have,
Many times over, but it seems my opposition to Rogue and GWF damage reductions is ignored, I suspect its because I do not have all the information, because of the way they reworked power in Mod 3. Yes its surprisingly huge.
So I cannot judge things until I actually see more of it.
That said, from the things I've seen in Mod3 on preview with regards to GWF damage, it does not appear to have been affected at all. Their damage on single targets is still much greater than mine in similar gear.
That's the problem,
In order to achieve that you would need to completely rework all classes in the game and rework the entire way the CW Encounter Powers work. Because the CW never had pure crowd control even back in the pre nerf AP gain period. THe techniques used by CWs were the "work around" because it did not have good control abilities. All they had was damage that escalated by the number of mobs with a very short stun or prone attached.
1. GFs cant hold agro in mass mob situations.
2. The AoEs separated into only crowd control and only damage, do not work... because
3. The AoEs do not have a long enough control time nor do enough damage to either be a full control spell or full damage spell.
They have a Prone (Shards), and a 3 second stun (Steal Time). That's not long enough to control anything without the damage component killing them. The recast on both is around 10-12 seconds depending on your Recovery score. So you have roughly 4 seconds of actual crowd control in 20-22 seconds of recast timers.
4. Because of number 1 it results in only a dead party.
The damage component baring an extremely high gear score (15k+, aka perfects with PVorp) is not capable of taking down the mobs fast enough without 1-3 seconds of CC that allow the recast timers to pop again, or at least rotate to the next power.
IF the GF had the ability to control mass mob agro, then potentially it could be. But they cannot.
Sooo... you'd need to seriously increase the damage side... AND increase the control side if you wanted to split them into two separate sides. Because they're just a bastardized hybrid at this point. If you wanted AoE control you'd need the stun to be a good 6 seconds and the Prone to last much longer than the 1 second it takes for the mobs to stand back up. Or its not going to cut it.
If you wanted AoE damage, you'd need more than 24k damage on a crit per mob in a Sub 15k GS, because the mobs have a ton more health than that.
Neither of which are options at this point.
You COULD... reorganize the powers and feats tree to separate CWs into either Single Target based or AoE target based. But then it complicates things because the added the MoF path which is about DoTs, but still maintains a good (but lesser) AoE strength but stronger Single target abilities due to the DoTs.
This I think is where you are personally confusing the distinction.
The CW has always had excellent SINGLE TARGET CC (regardless of path, this was to combine with their weaker single target damage to allow survivability in Solo Play in the non epic side)... but almost non existent AoE CC so splitting so splitting that portion from the AoEs will just cause more problems than it solves for everyone else,
.....unless you're talking splitting the Single Target from the AoE. But those builds would be pretty useless in PvE (like they are now) due to the mass mob dungeons and events. Its possible they MIGHT be functional in PvP IF they removed Tenacity. But that's highly unlikely.
Ergo we're stuck in the same situation with no solution.
I don't think they're going to, I think behind the scenes they've come to the same conclusions I did.
And every time they nerf the CW it only makes things worse on every other class in the game. They've done it twice now, with disastrous results. The first nerf resulted in everyone stacking even more CWs in party which lead to the exact opposite of what they wanted.
I suspect this is why in the very same quote you are so fond of talking about... they show a real leariness about making any kind of decisions on due to the massive balance issues that result.... when you try to nerf a CC class in an environment where they're the only class in the game who can do it... and every thing in the PvE side is mass mob intensive.
If you look at what they said... they are seriously worried about doing this. They've already done it to disastrous results on every NON CW class in the game every time they do it. Plus now they've learned that side effect after the Tenacity patch.
2. Yes, they do, read the changes.
3. I've already raised CC duration by 50%, plus additional changes to specific powers listed. The AOE DPS powers are already too high. they will be lowered by roughly 20-25% depending on the final changes to PTR GWF, to match the PTR GWF. As will all DPS classes.
In all honesty I dont think you are seeing the full picture, atleast in PVE. The CW changes I listed allow the CW to remain borderline overpowered. I made the control OP in PVE to make it attractive for CW's to switch to less dmg and more control, or some hybrid there of and still be able to get the job done. This allows, with tenacity, for the CW's control in PVP to be noticable but not overpowered.
For Control Focused CW:
versus less number but CC immune mobs they have tab entangle, which pulls 8 mobs towards the entangled mob which is hard CC'd for 8-10 seconds (while about 2-3 in PVP)
versus larger number non cc immune mobs they have tab IT, which is 3 second stun vs everything, then chill, has unlimited target cap, and lasts ~forever. the 3 second stun repeats every time IT is put down, so every 10 seconds or so.
In either scenario they have Steal time which is now a full on daze (vs a slow) during casting (2-3 seconds) and also 6-7 second duration Stun.
Then they have the old standby Singularity which now interrupts while gathering mobs to break AOEs.
Control focused CWs will be completely fine just controlling mobs. What they wont have is the damage along with it. Damage focused CW's will have the same dmg output as everyone else in addition to minor control (interrupts). They too will be fine.
Yes, every time they've nerfed CONTROL or AP gain they've made the game worse for every non CW class. Hence my original statement about CWs being lead down the wrong road since the beginning. This is the opposite of a nerf to control. This is a massive buff to control allowing a Single CW to CC for a party without the need of multiple CWs.
The only change is, instead of gimping CW dmg so that they can only CC, i've allowed CWs to maintain their damage if they choose to forgo CC, so you can still bring multiple CWs, theres just no need to bring more than 1 control focused one. In all honesty, multiple CW parties will still be fine with each CW bringing 1 control spell and the rest focusing on dmg, instead of having 1 person designated as Control.
Not important enough to include. I'm fine with GFs having the ability to kill someone every once in a while instead of just chain proning so some other player can kill him.
Keep in mind while 35% may sound like a lot, the majority of the DPS increase to GF is AOE based from the new mark and new enforced threat.
For a *balanced dungeon*, I would agree. But dungeons are not balanced. They are weighted far too heavily towards easily controlled adds.
The instrument that you are using to assess balance among the DPS classes - paingiver in add-heavy dungeons - is an unbalanced instrument.
A more balanced instrument might be something like: How does each DPS class perform when confronted with a mob consisting of 5 CC-able adds of 1000 HP each and 1 immune add of 5000 HP? In this case, every DPS class has an opportunity to perform well.
But if you assess balance by measuring how well each class performs with waves of controllable adds, then OF COURSE the class that has the most AOE DPS will do the best, and because the test is rigged, it will result in an over-nerfing of CWs.
Errm that assumes the CW actually HAD CC in the first place... It never did. All you are talking about... and all any other class ever knows is Singularity and the SINGLE TARGET crowd control powers (that are for solo play mainly) that do no work in mass mob group play situations... that's IT...
Like I said...there was only a 3 second stun and a 1 second prone for mass mobs... that's IT. That's ALL the CW has right now on the AoE side. And that's pretty tiny.
They don't and never HAVE had any kind of actual control powers that were AoE. That's where you're assuming too much.
THERE IS NONE CURRENTLY. There is only damage that escalates on a per mob basis (ie, the larger the crowd, the more damage it does) AND a 1 second prone and a 3 seconds stun with 20 seconds worth or recast timers.
THATS IT for crowd control.
IF you're just talking about ADDing non damage area crowd control as an ACTUAL PATH that is not single target..... outside of the CURRENT path... THEN we'd be talking.
But I already explained to you how this stuff all works and I feel like Im talking to a wall here...
There's no reason to nerf anything.... as the damage already is self nerfing... and decreases down to nothing the fewer and fewer mobs there are... JUST like in PvP currently where it is next to nothing on one or two targets... all you have to do is stop throwing that many mobs at the party and suddenly and mysteriously Pooof...... The CWs damage drops markedly.
Its self nerfing and designed to do that. Because it was only there for damage based crowd control in the first place with a 1 second prone on one and a 3 second stun on the other... just long enough for the CW to survive until the recast timers hit.
Look man,
I totally get what you're saying... but you're assuming the CW has waaaay more than it does currently... it does not.
Nerf CWS and be thankful for longer dungeons!
But GWf should be tanks!
You are keep saying that CW should be control, than GWf should embrace their secondary role as tank! Its ridiculous that someone is using a daily and every mob is off from the Gwf...
I use my GWf as a support melee to help squishy classes and tank Draco. Lots of GWFs are making glass canon build. Practically their main hobby is to dps-race with everyone because they want to see themselves at the top of paingiver.
Then cause wipes at bosses, dying at first at Draco.
Well not for numerous occasions because wont be invited again despite all of their mighty dps...
Unlimited target caps: Another repetative argument: Lots of classes has unlimited caps. Then take away GWFs avalanche and mighty leap as well and everybody loses.
HRs has unlimited target caps too.
After nerfing shield burst target cap to 5 I dont think repels target cap would be raised to 10.
Do you realize that CWs are running old content (almost one year now) designed with add fest for 6-8-10k geared player when most of the CW old player have now around 13-17k gs with greater perfect enchants and artifacts.
I remember when i started the game evey single pack of mobs mob was a threat now it's not the case.
Talking about CW dammage at this time it's a nonsense, because the massive up of the gear especially with artifacts don't fit with the old challenges even the last one in module 2.
The PVP show perfectly that the CW is one of the worst class in domination because it has absolutely none of the keys needed to win.
-No survivability.
-Useless control, single or mass.
-No heal.
-No stealth/invisibility
-No immune spell.
-Slow.
-Worst armor.
And you are complaining about their ONLY asset, their aoe damage-control for PVE, for old content with basic mobs brainless?
LOL.
May be it's time to make dungeons where all class could be usefull especially the GF and stop with the add fest, and you ll see how the single dps of a CW is absolutely not over the top.
To what balorin just said CW is far from the worst class in PvP. They are extremely useful if you have a good one, healing you can get from regen and life steal as well as from your artifact. Their dodge is by far the best dodge that lasts the longest and is the most reliable because of this. I find that in PvP it's not good to compare classes as if you are doing a 1v1 all the time as most of the time you are fighting for a cap or fighting to get a team advantage by ganking a single player with your team with you.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
I don't talk about one-one or skill player for duel.
Domination match is not a story about duel, domination match is all about quickness; survivability and your ability to annoy people on a node enough time even if you know you are going to loose that node or be killed, and for all these jobs the CW is totally crappy.
Considering every classes have prones control and for some of them immunity and stealth, your role is useless, you are not an efficient support, you are not a healer, you are not a holder, you are not a dammage dealer, and you are clearly not a tanking machine or a perma holder.
Even about the ranged aera field HR are moore efficient.
You want PvE changes?
Change the stupid dungeon design. I never saw any MMO with such a simplistic encounter design.
All in all, stop suggesting stuff that will completely throw off any semblance of balance that we have in PvP for now.
you think there is balance in pvp?
No, I just said it will completely imbalance PvP.
That means I think it is already imbalanced. From my experience being here since Beta, almost any changes to classes further imbalanced PvP.
well if it isn't balanced, then "messing with things" is one way to get it closer to balance. Doing nothing is definatly not the way.
Well, I don't trust the developers
Well I don't think our trust in thier game design is high on thier priority list.
True about this^. This game is pve based anyway, I believe they should work that first, then pvp. The balance of pve is so imbalanced, no one cant agree that its all about stacking CWs in the party. Even the high end guilds go for this. This results in CWs being the top notch class in pve, but not so great in pvp, where their survivability is limited, and their cc not needed so much. CWs weren't always this bad, despite what narrow minded CWs(like pers3phone) say. They used to be a pvp powerhouse, because their cc really worked wonders for node contesting(especially when the team worked with him/her). Now, tenacity did knock A LOT of their control out of the equation, putting them as a support class, needing other players to help them. But honestly, was it worse back then? imo, yes, because all they had to do was basically 1 shot people with ice knives. I believe the tenacity change(and they even said this was the purpose) was to prolong fights, so it wasn't a 1 shot fest. You want balance? work one aspect at a time. The game has already been out long enough to need to be careful with changing anything. "Nerfing" or "Buffing" too many aspects in and of itself leads to imbalance too. Every class has seen drastic changes(not HRs yet, but they are getting quite changed with module 3). Harken back to open beta, with TRs and CWs being the glass cannon classes, and GWFs and GFs being tanky, but altogether not as instrumental to the team in comparison. The more changes they implement, the more people want to focus on one specific tactic. The more you nerf TRs, the more they went permastealth. You nerf GWFs, the more want to go iv sentinel builds. You nerf CWs(and everything else) in pve, the more people just want to stack CWs to do dungeons. Drastic changes equals drastic imbalance. I just say take it easy. Its not an easy task to balance things... Plenty of people should know this.