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PVP/PVE: Time for a divorce.
pointsman
Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
PVPers and PVEers have never really gotten along, but it seems more and more lately that the dislike between the two factions has grown more intense. PVErs resent having to do PVP in order to get the glory needed for the Skull artifact, and will no doubt resent the PVP that they will have to do in order to get the PVP artifacts in Mod3. PVErs also resent PVPers coming into their PVE dungeons and HAMSTER everything up - in this one time in Spellplague, I saw a CW attempting to clear trash mobs using Icy Rays and Enfeeble! I mean, really? Clearly a PVPer who just wanted loot in order to roflstomp n00bs harder. And PVPers rightfully resent the PVErs coming into their PVP matches and ruining their matches. And both sides resent having a class "balanced" for one aspect of the game at the expense of another. PVE TRs don't like that they are pretty much unwanted in PVE anymore because of how they were nerfed due to PVP; and PVPers no doubt dislike how GWFs got this great (and much-needed) PVE buff in Mod2 that made them into ungodly PVPers (at least before Tenacity was introduced).
Moreover it seems quite apparent that the two sides don't even have a whole lot of respect for each other. I am willing to bet that the hardcore PVPers don't care at all about D&D, lore, Forgotten Realms, or any of that. They are simply interested in having a fun PVP experience, and the particular setting of that experience doesn't matter hardly at all. PVErs on the other hand are much more likely to care more deeply about being faithful to D&D lore, and get upset when the whole spirit of D&D, which is of teamwork and cooperation in order to defeat a common enemy, gets twisted and corrupted into this testosterone-fueled exercise of epeen stroking. (Things that were never heard at a tabletop D&D game: "My premade can beat your premade!")
Plus comes the fact that PVP has gotten so competitive that it is not even possible to enjoy PVP with a PVE-focused character. One *must* have a pure PVP spec in order to not get consistently roflstomped in PVP. The only way to really advance in PVP is to join a PVP guild, which of course will not admit PVE players who want to enjoy that aspect of the game as well since it's not in their mission or interest to do so.
Therefore I claim it's time for a divorce. Separate the PVE and PVP aspects of the game completely.
It wouldn't really be all that hard to do either. Since *already* one must have separate PVP and PVE characters, just create a flag for each character on whether or not it is a PVP-spec character or a PVE-spec character. Only PVP-spec characters would be able to queue for Domination, do the Gauntylgrym PVP, or do the open-world PVP in Mod3. Everyone else would not. Conversely, PVPers would not be allowed to queue for dungeons, but that's not an issue anyway because one no longer needs gear acquired from dungeons in order to be successful at PVP.
Devs could then work on balancing the features of each class that require balancing for each separate part of the game by only adjusting what each appropriately flagged character's abilities could do. So, for instance, if Threatening Rush for GWF is too OP in PVP, then devs can rework the Threatening Rush ability but *only for PVP-flagged characters*, leaving its usefulness for GFs in PVE unchanged.
But I really don't think the two sides can coexist for much longer. Fundamentally it comes down to a lack of respect. PVPers don't respect PVE players because they think PVErs are playing this easymode "care-bear" game with no real challenge, and PVE players don't respect PVPers because they think they are all just idiots with a playground bully mentality who never grew up.
Moreover it seems quite apparent that the two sides don't even have a whole lot of respect for each other. I am willing to bet that the hardcore PVPers don't care at all about D&D, lore, Forgotten Realms, or any of that. They are simply interested in having a fun PVP experience, and the particular setting of that experience doesn't matter hardly at all. PVErs on the other hand are much more likely to care more deeply about being faithful to D&D lore, and get upset when the whole spirit of D&D, which is of teamwork and cooperation in order to defeat a common enemy, gets twisted and corrupted into this testosterone-fueled exercise of epeen stroking. (Things that were never heard at a tabletop D&D game: "My premade can beat your premade!")
Plus comes the fact that PVP has gotten so competitive that it is not even possible to enjoy PVP with a PVE-focused character. One *must* have a pure PVP spec in order to not get consistently roflstomped in PVP. The only way to really advance in PVP is to join a PVP guild, which of course will not admit PVE players who want to enjoy that aspect of the game as well since it's not in their mission or interest to do so.
Therefore I claim it's time for a divorce. Separate the PVE and PVP aspects of the game completely.
It wouldn't really be all that hard to do either. Since *already* one must have separate PVP and PVE characters, just create a flag for each character on whether or not it is a PVP-spec character or a PVE-spec character. Only PVP-spec characters would be able to queue for Domination, do the Gauntylgrym PVP, or do the open-world PVP in Mod3. Everyone else would not. Conversely, PVPers would not be allowed to queue for dungeons, but that's not an issue anyway because one no longer needs gear acquired from dungeons in order to be successful at PVP.
Devs could then work on balancing the features of each class that require balancing for each separate part of the game by only adjusting what each appropriately flagged character's abilities could do. So, for instance, if Threatening Rush for GWF is too OP in PVP, then devs can rework the Threatening Rush ability but *only for PVP-flagged characters*, leaving its usefulness for GFs in PVE unchanged.
But I really don't think the two sides can coexist for much longer. Fundamentally it comes down to a lack of respect. PVPers don't respect PVE players because they think PVErs are playing this easymode "care-bear" game with no real challenge, and PVE players don't respect PVPers because they think they are all just idiots with a playground bully mentality who never grew up.
Post edited by pointsman on
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I am doing both since beta and i solo que alot for both. As long as u have the pvp gear you can do fairly well in pvp even if u are a pve spec (dont expect to beat a fully premade pvp team or a pvp build).
I guess short version of your post: "I want dual spec!"
I have come across a lot of thoroughly unpleasant idiots in PvP and it is easy to spot them in a dungeon. At the same time I have played with many, many nice, friendly, decent people in dungeons who use the chat to role-play in-character and it's a lot of fun.
I have also had chat conversations with completely obnoxious A-hole PvP players, who thought I was talking about Astral Diamonds when I mentioned AD&D and claimed they had no idea what role-playing is!
I only do PvP for the AD. But since my Main character hit level 60, I have three pieces of Grim Faithful Armour, so I started to enjoy it more as there are extra prizes for the extra "Win a Domination" daily quest.
Also, it was only recently I realised how utterly mindless PvP actually is, because I realised how it works. Many times our team scored far, far better than the other team in individual scores, due to better team work and killing more of the enemy, helping each other out etc.
But we lost the match as the points were Red for longer than they were Blue.
So it seems to be:
Stand on Red to stop them scoring.
Get off the point as soon as it is blue and go to a red one.
Only fight on a point as you stop them scoring on a Red one if you are standing on it, and stop them taking possession of a Blue one.
Never flee from a Blue point as they will start scoring from it sooner - better to die and come back
If they flee, do not chase them until the point turns Blue and you start scoring from it
If you die, don't charge back into melee - go to their home base and stop them scoring from it - you will probably die in a 2 on 1 and most Clerics will die instantly a 1 on 1, except against another Cleric. But you stop them scoring for a while and your team score may catch up a bit. I have even seen a 200 point trailing score close to 3 points, or even scrape a win by using these tactics. Other times, we have lost 1000 to 33. But there's nothing you can do against Uber-Gear.
That is a pretty mindless and pointless game. But you do eventually get some decent rewards.
The worst thing is that my Main character can take two steps, gets permanently stunned so all my buttons are greyed out, and in two seconds she is dead. That is no fun at all. But a close match (win or lose I don't care) CAN be a lot of fun.
So I still do PvP with all my characters for the AD - and when I have enough Glory and seals, I will buy better armour.
Rather than divorcing the two types of game, they should not have designed it to be two separate things. It would be better if both PvE and PvP benefited from the same skills, gear, enchants, Powers etc.
Also, a better queuing system would help enormously, where evenly balanced teams were pitted against each other. It's pointless trying to fight with a team who have no English and gear scores of 6k against a Guild Team that have Voice Chat working and gear scores of 20k.
Also, my level 10 character did her first PvP and she is suddenly level 19 - but she did not have the powers or feats for those nine phantom levels - what's that all about?
As for respect - Some PvP players respect no one because they are arrogant, immature A-holes.
PvE players do not respect some PvP players because they are not worthy of respect.
~
Here's where I believe Cryptic made their errors:
1) We cannot duel spec. I'd love to be able to switch from a PVP spec to a PVE spec. It would be great.
2) PVE and PVP are now completely separate. How do I get good PVE gear? I run Epic DDs. How do I get the best PVP gear? I farm PVP to get enough Glory. I used to have to farm dungeons to get good gear. Cryptic killed that. I still have to run Sharandar and the Dread Ring to get my boons, which is fine.
3) So this means my play time has gone down dramatically. Glory rewards are so minimal now that it only makes sense to do my dailies and log off or work the AH.
Cryptic shot themselves in the foot with the new PVP changes. It made a stronger division between the two, and next to no reason to run all of their amazing end-game content. If you're a strong PVPer like myself, you basically do GG and a few matches if you have the time.
I'd love to see a move back to intermingling the two: Why not run PVE to get PVP gear? Will that happen? No. Tenacity and the PVP changes put a strong split in the community, as the OP mentioned, and only heightened the difference between the two groups of players.
A shame, really.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I don't know.
PvP could become interesting and needs some work.
I think a few tweeks could change the whole feel of it.
I don't know why they can't have a equalizer mode in addition to standard PvP.
Everyone's bonus from gear is lowered or raised proportionally to the average of both teams.
That way, hardcore PvPer could fight in the 'big leagues' where your GS is your GS.
People who just want a fun, even match can fight on the level playing field of equalized GS.
just my 2AD
I can't see characters being set in stone as PVE or PVP but not both as being viable. Not everyone wants to have a ton of alts.
We. Asked. For. This! Endlessly! The PVP community, time and time again, asked for a PMvsPM queue. What did we get? The ELO system? Does it work? Poorly. Why? Because they're not enough players on Neverwinter, the Devs had to tune down the ELO system making it next to non-functioning. We get queued up against pugs all the time in PVP.
I'd love the ELO system to be scrapped and a simple PMvsPM queue added. I truly doubt the Devs will listen to us now if they didn't listen to us then, but that's what the PVP community has been demanding for months now. That and more maps. We didn't ask for Tenacity, we didn't ask for the ELO system. Right now that's what we're stuck with, so we'll make do.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Agree completely, there should be PvP mode where the powers have different (or adjusted) effect. [ can be even close to the HR shift ]
This combined with the ability to rapidly change items/powers will make it work.
[ i can even pass on the dual-spec as long as the powers are balanced and with mod3 all of them are available]
And as was said PvP should be invite-able for teams, as fully PvE spec i can PvP but will be roflstomped by a PvP premade, but love to have friendly matches against friends or within guild
That would be good, but not enough IMO. Because you will still have the PVP god-mode characters PUGging just in order to destroy and grief the PVE n00bs who pug and queue for PVP. That is almost as frustrating as pugging against a full premade.
You're right, nobody forces anyone to do either PVE or PVP. But where the two do intersect, it more often than not leads to frustration and conflict, rather than cooperation and harmony.
And I'm sure there are quite a few nice PVP players. But in my experience, PVP tends to bring out a higher proportion of d-baggery than PVE does.
Well NeverWinter thought it would be a good idea for re-speccing to be the area they screw players over with the cash shop. The problem is it's not possible to have a separate spec for PvP, so if a player really wants to do both PvP and PvE, they must have more than one character at 60 to run a sup-par PvP or PvE spec.
An area that PvEers get screwed over is in artifacts like the OP brought up. The only way to get an extremely cheap second artifact for cheap is the PvP 'raven skull' artifact. And you must PvP to get this. Why is every artifact in the game so **** expensive or rare to get? These are something that should be like companions, where you have the options to purchase mild to moderate performance 'cheap' artifacts from some place, similar to what the emporium offers for companions.
**mmmpffffffttsmmmmmmrrrrrkkkkk**
Sorry. That was me trying to hold my laughter.
Pretty ironic to think about how people have been whining and complaining for months about how people constantly kick members out of their team to monopolize epic drops.. trololollloll
Douch*ags will be douch*ags, whether be it PvE or PvP. The only differences is the fact that a hefty portion of the "victims" in PvE are AI mobs, who don't ever complain about anything, for instance such as repeated 'speed runs' that basically exploit a known weakness in the system to bypass the set amount of time-loot ratio, and etc etc..
Try actually bringing an argument that doesn't concern the holier-than-thou attitude. I mean, really? You take upon this kind of HAMSTER and then have the galls to call PvPers douc*es??
Look in the mirror, chap.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
lets face it they really are 2 different games, they have 2 different goals, 2 different player bases, 2 different strategies. yet, here like almost every other mmo they try and cater to both. PICK ONE
in almost every game made to date, pvp sets the balance for classes and skills, this is BAD logic because it is always the PVE crowd getting the short stick, you CANNOT balance pve, with PVP mechanics! though you are not "forced" its getting awful close, and will drive players away.
TR nerfed because PVP unbalance, now useless in pve
GWF getting nerfed because PVP unbalance
HR getting nerfed because unbalance
CW unchanged O.0 friggen where is the logic in that? OMG because in PVP a CW is not OP?
the balance decisions are geared from a PVP perspective, but those balances are HAMSTER over pve crowd. further more why is it that PVP even needs different gear? thats just HAMSTER, there is NO reason for it. in ad&d classes where never designed to combat each other, they where designed to create TEAM synergy, yet PVP gets introduced and ruins any semblance of team chemistry. because in pvp, every class should be able to defeat the other o.0
the direction the game is going will drive many PVE players to new games, which will means that neverwinter is nothing more than a rest stop. they could have been a better game by NOT having pvp, and devoting the staff to better and more content. and the new MOD 3, will ruin things for many pve players, because though not "forced" sure is **** close.
I can count on one hand the number of times I've been ninja kicked from a dungeon. But trashtalking, spawncamping, spawnjumping (before it was fixed), and generally griefing behavior is a commonplace experience in PVP. It's not even really considered an exploit, it's considered a "normal" part of the PVP experience even though it is extremely disrespectful.
Sorry that you play in a cultural milieu that tolerates such behavior and so therefore you are oblivious to its deleterious effects.
Nobody said there aren't d-bags everywhere. It's just that being a d-bag in PVP is considered "normal".
I agree with that. What I would really like to see is balance changes on one side (PvE or PvP) not required to be pushed on the other. I've never seen that type of balancing work out very well and it seems to inevitably leads to really bland game play mechanics. I remember some Starcraft developers talking about this problem.
You will be getting that in mod 3. Pve/Pvp gear is the same. Not to mention the intermingling of pets/pvp potions and healing depression when flagged as a pvper. Now all we need is dual spec. And one click gear changes. Class balance will always be an issue and constantly worked on. Oh...and some more dominion maps!
Amen, Sir!
Exactly the point! Cryptic is once again ruining PVP in their game (just like they killed PVP in Champions Online). Again, NO ONE asked for Tenacity and all other MMO's that had a specific PVP trait have split their PVE/PVP communities in a way that they never got along again, and some big game in the MMO industry even rolled back from the [name your game's pvp trait here] as it discouraged integration from those 2 communities.
As a PVP/PVE enthusiast, I hate having to choose in which I have to focus now, since the gear, enchants, enhancements cannot be the same anymore.
I don't (personally) feel like PvE and PvP need to intersect at ALL, and like pointsman my PvP experiences have been miserable roflstomps (either on a stomping or stompee team) 90% of the time (whereas my PvE experiences have been generally positive), however I accept that many people like to have the option to do PvP with their PvE chars, and vice versa, so...since probably 100% of the players in PvP who clearly don't want to be there are simply there for the raven skull, and a good 70-80% of the characters in PvE who are clearly PvP-specced (a CW with HOW many hitpoints? Ohhhh) are just there to farm the requisite amount of dungeons to gear up, why not just make the artifact redeemable for X number of drake seals (or similar), and allow enchants to be bought with glory (since I'm guessing dungeon-drop armour sets are less vital post-tenacity introduction)?
Second this..
Also , why they dont they just make a seperate queue that forces random only, so even if someone from a premade doesnt have enough guild members on, they can join a random queue instead. If you think about it, some of the guild members may even face each other! Thats not a bad thing and could be fun.
As someone who playes almost all PUG, its pretty hard to face a premade, the few times I got on a premade as a 5th, Ive seen the difference right away, was in one on my CW last night, I was barely touched and led all points.. trust me it wasnt becuase of my average skills, it was just that the premade fought together, instead of just doing thier own thing, I just followed their lead and trailed around, they protected me at all times and the TR's and GWF were all over the opposition, I was never touched, maybe died once. THE Hr was unbelievable, would press towards nodes, not away! I almost peed my pants seeing that lol..
You get in any normal pug and your usually a 5 member one person team =P.. Its rare to find a good random pug, but when you do, that in itself can make your day.
I enjoy both and most MMOs offer both, however IVE never seen a MMO where the best items were not from the top dungeons, here it can be said the only item any uber hardcore needs is the emblem, which can be bought, so they really dont have to do that either.
I never understood not doing both honestly, I would get bored to death just to do one and not the other, if PVP becomes to much, run some dungeons, do some solo stuff or vice versa, tired of grinding, drop into a few matches and have a blast.
PVP balance is hard, domination with just 10 players is even harder. Open world sides is better (ive been in 100 vs 100 matches) even if one side was outnumbered, common courtesy was allow weaker team to take castles and get npc help until #s even out)
I complained about respec fee cost the first week I started playing, I think its the oddest cash grab Ive seen, even if they want to keep it, they should allow at least dual perm specs, heck if they think about it, thats double the cash they could maybe get =P...
Meaningless statement is meaningless! Good jorb, sir. -_-
Seriously, though: balancing issues are a pretty good reason for some separation of the two modes (skill X works this way in PvE, this way in PvP) because they are trying to do fundamentally different things.
CWs absolutely excel at mass-control of a truly staggering number of weak stupid enemies. This is beyond useless in PvP, where there are 5 enemies and they're rarely weak or stupid.
DCs can mitigate and heal the entire team through plink damage from a huge number of weak stupid enemies, but in PvP the damage is often in giant spikes, and spike heals are not a thing DCs really do.
The classes were clearly designed around a PvE model, and the PvP model used (while at least giving SOME utility to the non-spike deeps classes by being pointcap rather than deathmatch) doesn't fit the classes at all. Attempting to balance things in PvP will almost never work because the classes are fundamentally unbalanceable, but you can guarantee that almost any PvP balance effort will be detrimental to PvE balance. And let's be brutally honest, even as the core base for everything: it's not like the PvE balance works terribly well anyway (hello mass CW parties).
We have a situation where the ostensible tank class is more or less useless in PvE, but passably useful in PvP simply because of "number of prone encounters" . It's...bizarre.
I'm not saying that cryptic are going to be able to fix this, but trying to please both the PvP and PvE crowds simultaneously is certainly not making things easier.
You make a whole lot of assumptions here for a whole lot of people. You have no idea how other people think other than your own delusions.
Blind as i said...not surprised actually...
Let me expand...
First of all you will have to excuse my ignorance of some of the previous posts on this thread, as i'm too tired of reading the same things over and over and over again.
That said. This whole mindles PvP vs PvE war is plain stupid.
Those are different aspects of the same game. To completely divide PvP from PvE means limiting the overall game experience.
NOT ALL PLAYERS ARE ELITIST WANNABES PVP/PVE-ONLY "GODS".
Some (i believe the majority of) ppl like to play both parts... either focused on PvE or PvP, there sometimes is need for doing the other part... PvP only is too dull in this game.. playing the same 2 maps in the same mode (domination) over and over again..
One may also be tired of running the same dungeons over and over again killing the same mobs, the same bosses etc..
So why, WHY, even consider of making this game BORING by limiting its gameplay to PvP or PvE only?
How to balance PvP-PvE?
Well, for starters.. stop copyng builds from the internet... make your own build, chose feats and powers both usable in PvP and PvE..
Also, yeah you guessed right, 2 gear sets...and the most importand part... lear how to play your class, experiment on preview shard..
OR CHOSE TO LIMIT YOURSELF-BUT NOT EVERYONE IN THE GAME. There are ways to balance PvP and PvE..
I play CW, my build is not pure PvP nor Pure PvE... and it is viable in both...what it takes is just a bit of imagination and thought..
And for f@ck's sake... it's a game.. treat it like one..
Plus one last thing... to the so called 'hardcore PvPers'... dont be such elitist A-holes just because YOU want to ONLY PvP, it doesn't mean you have to ruin everyone's fun... ok PvEers can be A-holes too, but in my experience the competitive nature of PvP makes PvPers to act like spoiled brats with mommy/daddy issues -chill out it's a game-
Why do i say this to the PvP community?
Well, either the PvPers are more likely to be A-holes than PvEers or if consider the fact that i only came across immature ppl is in PvP and not PvE... then i am very very very very (you get the point) lucky in PvE... which i am not (lucky).
What in my opinion would help 'fix' this 'problem' would be a system of 'duel' for 1v1 and a map which would be a PvP only area
in which the 'so-harcore/full of testosterone/ PvPers' could go and enter in matches with premade teams ONLY..
Plus an (or 2) alternative powers-feats setup bar to change in between aspects of the game PvP-PvE.
Concluding i would appologise for my gramar or spelling mistakes if any, as english is not my native language.
Wow you not only come off as holier than thou,arrogant, condescending and insulting to a general player base who enjoy pvp, you also make sweeping allegations and stereotype us as well.
Your insinuation on pvp players i find insulting and you degrade me as a human as well. Just because I pvp look down on pvers?!,laugh at them being care bears? what this e-peen and testosterone your coming with?
I don't even have to retort, you just have to look at the insults and stereotypes spilling out form your post which i feel has a lot of thorns and poison in it.
"cryptic is ruining pvp"
"cryptic is ignoring us; we didn't ask for this"
there is something called a business plan and whether it is made public or not, it exists. the data that is considered when this plan is set in motion may also be unknown. that's not to say that you can't provide your feedback here on the forums but it is doubtful that PWE will ever take forum feedback as the sole factor in making a decision.
there is no guarantee that the game will meet your expectations. if that's a terrible truth, then so be it. you still have to provide your feedback in a respectful and constructive way. ranting about how pvp isn't the way you'd like it to be isn't constructive. in the history of MMOs, there's the classic rivalry between pvpers and pve'ers due to class balance issues. you can disagree with choices made, but you must be respectful and constructive in your feedback. if you cannot, then please do not post.
thanks.