Ice Knife Vs Shocking Execution

crazymikee · March 2014

How come pre-patch both these dailys were close to being the same damage output in pvp, except in some extenuating circumstances, but now post patch, I've only been able to max a 14k with ice knife on the squishiest cw ever, and with shocking execution I can easily 1 hit a guardian fighter who was my friend and completly set on defence gear abilities for a 34k essentially 1 hitting him, and no i didnt have any buff going for me at the moment. it's basically a joke in the realm of game balancing because both are high hitting knock out dailys and both should be similar in damage output in pvp realistically. i love using both cw and tr for pvp but honestly cw has become a joke for pvp matches seeing as they got ganked in this last patch where other classes were barely affected by it, no matter how many changes that were said to have been made, its only really affected cw since tenacity doesnt even affect prone time which is what all the other classes have, and cw only has cc powers which are only what tenacity effects lol... your opinions?

arcmoon99 · March 2014

crazymikee wrote: »

How come pre-patch both these dailys were close to being the same damage output in pvp, except in some extenuating circumstances, but now post patch, I've only been able to max a 14k with ice knife on the squishiest cw ever, and with shocking execution I can easily 1 hit a guardian fighter who was my friend and completly set on defence gear abilities for a 34k essentially 1 hitting him, and no i didnt have any buff going for me at the moment. it's basically a joke in the realm of game balancing because both are high hitting knock out dailys and both should be similar in damage output in pvp realistically. i love using both cw and tr for pvp but honestly cw has become a joke for pvp matches seeing as they got ganked in this last patch where other classes were barely affected by it, no matter how many changes that were said to have been made, its only really affected cw since tenacity doesnt even affect prone time which is what all the other classes have, and cw only has cc powers which are only what tenacity effects lol... your opinions?

Ice knife doesn't ignore defensive effects but still hits pretty hard.
Shocking Execution doesn't deal as much base damage as Ice Knife, but ignores every single defense and damage immunites.

They had comparable damage pre-Tenacity but Shocking Execution ignores Tenacity giving Ice knife an intended nerf with tenacity, but Shocking Execution ignores Tenacity so it remains the same.

My suggestion is to make it so that Shocking Execution does not ignore the DR from Tenacity putting it back in line with Ice Knife.

demonkyuubi · March 2014

ice knife also doesn't count your armor pen i think so tenacity is actually a double nerf

todesfaelle · March 2014

crazymikee wrote: »

How come pre-patch both these dailys were close to being the same damage output in pvp, except in some extenuating circumstances, but now post patch, I've only been able to max a 14k with ice knife on the squishiest cw ever, and with shocking execution I can easily 1 hit a guardian fighter who was my friend and completly set on defence gear abilities for a 34k essentially 1 hitting him, and no i didnt have any buff going for me at the moment. it's basically a joke in the realm of game balancing because both are high hitting knock out dailys and both should be similar in damage output in pvp realistically. i love using both cw and tr for pvp but honestly cw has become a joke for pvp matches seeing as they got ganked in this last patch where other classes were barely affected by it, no matter how many changes that were said to have been made, its only really affected cw since tenacity doesnt even affect prone time which is what all the other classes have, and cw only has cc powers which are only what tenacity effects lol... your opinions?

Hi. And no, Tenacity actually affects Prone time, not to mention recovery from Prone has also been significantly increased. Prone users like GWF's and GF's have been hit hard by Tenacity. Control Wizards, however, penetrate CC resistances from Tenacity and other sources by 66%. In essence, we can say that CW's are the LEAST affected by Tenacity CC resistances. CW's can still retain their pre-patch CC efficacy just by stacking their WIS and Orb of Imposition's bonuses together. Heck, even WIS will be enough. Your CC's are pretty much relatively untouched with the exception of your SotEA prone time and Ice Knife prone time (which still benefits from the CWs 66% CC penetration). What changed, however, is the CW's ability to burst down squishies quickly because of Tenacity's added DR which stacks on top of DR from Defense, as well as Critical Hit Suppression. Everyone is affected by these 2 things.

For the topic of Shocking Execution vs. Ice Knife, it depends. Can Shocking Execution deal 34k against a full HP opponent? No it can't, you'll most likely deal 3.4k instead. Shocking Execution requires specific conditions before it hits hard. Ice Knife, however, remains as one of the hardest-hitting, commonly-used CW dailies in PVP. But it can be dodged, while SE can't be dodged while it pierces defenses which is what makes SE OP.

vorphied · March 2014

Ice Knife really isn't that scary these days; the only players getting hit hard by it are undergeared or severely debuffed ones. As previously noted, Shocking Execution's ability to bypass all forms of DR make it hit very hard in comparison to other powers, even when the target is not low on HP.

As for options to improve CC in PvP beyond the 66% inherent penetration, they aren't practical. CW burst is already less than amazing against geared players, which makes the notion of replacing a great class feature like EotS or Storm Spell with the comparatively meh Orb of Imposition unappealing. Stacking WIS means ignoring other important stats, so that's also not a great option. Besides, hard counters to CC are too common; it doesn't matter how many CC boosts you have when half the classes in the game constantly prevent or break CC. This makes building exclusively around CC an unwise investment.

adernath · March 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

For the topic of Shocking Execution vs. Ice Knife, it depends. Can Shocking Execution deal 34k against a full HP opponent? No it can't, you'll most likely deal 3.4k instead. Shocking Execution requires specific conditions before it hits hard. Ice Knife, however, remains as one of the hardest-hitting, commonly-used CW dailies in PVP. But it can be dodged, while SE can't be dodged while it pierces defenses which is what makes SE OP.

SE hits for alot more than anything out there, including Crescendo*) . It happens almost never that you receive hits of under 10k damage. Mostly I get hits by ~15k-20k from SE and ~4k-10k from Ice knife.

*) offtopic: Crescendo cant be dodged either: You 'dodge' it and while you see the 'dodge' on your screen you still get rooted and damaged+knockdown afterwards in the preceeding animation. Flourish is the same - you still get rooted. Its incredible how things are currently in PvP :mad:

pers3phone · March 2014

- Orb of Imposition was reported as bugged and having no effect in prolonging CC
- stacking Wisdom is HUGELY impractical. What you gonna give up? Con? Nope the extra fraction of a second CC won't keep you alive, but more HP might. Int? you need damage, every bit of it. CW PvP damage is so low it might 3-5 rotations to bring down a sent that just sits still

vasdamas · March 2014

double post.

vasdamas · March 2014

Tenacity, SE ignores it for now.

kweassa · March 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

Hi. And no, Tenacity actually affects Prone time, not to mention recovery from Prone has also been significantly increased. Prone users like GWF's and GF's have been hit hard by Tenacity. Control Wizards, however, penetrate CC resistances from Tenacity and other sources by 66%. In essence, we can say that CW's are the LEAST affected by Tenacity CC resistances.

Er... I'm not sure what you are seeing, tod, but I have to disagree.

It doesn't matter if they've taken away 0.5~0.6 from knock-prone durations, as well as double hit it with Tenacity. Currently, it doesn't matter if you're a halfling as well. There is no escaping the prone-spamming coming from GW/GWFs. All the Tenacity/CC resistance available currently + full invested into WIS over 20 points + Halfling 10% CC res... still does not matter. Once you're hit by that goda***d knock prone, there's nothing that stops you from getting hit by the rest of the prone spams.

The only class that has been hit, even with 66% penetration to CC res, is CWs. I've met some CWs that still can do the meatball combos, but the rest who has not adequately rolled their dice with high WIS, they can't hit that combo anymore. Ofcourse, the ice ray root is still frickin annoying and lasts for more than 2~3 secs (and I'm a halfling with elven battle), but generally the CWs are the major victims.

Frankly, despite the regen nerfs, cc spamming is still a huge problem with GWFs/GFs, and especially when a team has like 3~4 of them. 4 fighters focus one target, and it's like 8~9 knocks coming in straight, with no chance of recovery or escape. Its easy mode prime-time as it is.

crazymikee · March 2014

kweassa wrote: »

Er... I'm not sure what you are seeing, tod, but I have to disagree.

It doesn't matter if they've taken away 0.5~0.6 from knock-prone durations, as well as double hit it with Tenacity. Currently, it doesn't matter if you're a halfling as well. There is no escaping the prone-spamming coming from GW/GWFs. All the Tenacity/CC resistance available currently + full invested into WIS over 20 points + Halfling 10% CC res... still does not matter. Once you're hit by that goda***d knock prone, there's nothing that stops you from getting hit by the rest of the prone spams.

The only class that has been hit, even with 66% penetration to CC res, is CWs. I've met some CWs that still can do the meatball combos, but the rest who has not adequately rolled their dice with high WIS, they can't hit that combo anymore. Ofcourse, the ice ray root is still frickin annoying and lasts for more than 2~3 secs (and I'm a halfling with elven battle), but generally the CWs are the major victims.

Frankly, despite the regen nerfs, cc spamming is still a huge problem with GWFs/GFs, and especially when a team has like 3~4 of them. 4 fighters focus one target, and it's like 8~9 knocks coming in straight, with no chance of recovery or escape. Its easy mode prime-time as it is.

Even versus a single GWF or GF with comperable or worse gear the outcome is still always bad for the CW, both of those classes can go from max distance to melee attack range in a second with a majority of their abilities, then GWF can just threatening rush 3-4 times to stay with the CW, along with getting rid of atleast half his hitpoints (32k) just from threatening rush, not to mention the GWF's 3 knockdowns which also have faster recharge times then any of the CW's cc abilities which lass less then a second in almost all cases while prones are unnoticably shortened. It's beyond stupid and the devs shouldn't punish people in PvP for having a specfic class with completly no defence against cc spams, while if a CW is dumping his cc's at max range versus a gwf capping a base, chill strike, one of the few high hitting attacks cw has almost always maxes below a 4-5k, while threatening rush which can be spammed 3-4 times and continuously recharges can hit easily 3-4ks every time, and it keeps the GWF close to the CW even if the CW has a run speed advantage, mounts and tries to flee, the GWF can catch up to a tier 3 mount easy and use a prone attack to freeze the CW on his mount. This happens to me and EVERY other CW on a daily basis in PVP. simply put, its HAMSTER

loboguild · March 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

Can Shocking Execution deal 34k against a full HP opponent?

Yes, it can.

todesfaelle · March 2014

loboguild wrote: »

Yes, it can.

You know, Lobo, I've been a rogue since Open Beta and I have delved in a lot of theorycraft stuff with it but I absolutely can't imagine how one could do such a thing with SE. I've played with SE a lot too, and I have not had the chance to see it happen.

I'm pretty sure you guys have talked about this a lot in the Shocking Execution thread, and I'm also confident that there has been proof that this has been happening since that thread has been going on for quite some time. But would anyone be kind enough to show this confused rogue some proof of SE one-shotting people from full health? I'd be cool with combat logs, parser logs, but videos would be great too.

Because the idea itself is ludicrous. SE is not supposed to one-shot people at full health so something must've broke. It never did that in ANY of the previous patches.

godlysoul2 · March 2014

Can't we just add prone to SE and call it even?

todesfaelle · March 2014

pers3phone wrote: »

- Orb of Imposition was reported as bugged and having no effect in prolonging CC
- stacking Wisdom is HUGELY impractical. What you gonna give up? Con? Nope the extra fraction of a second CC won't keep you alive, but more HP might. Int? you need damage, every bit of it. CW PvP damage is so low it might 3-5 rotations to bring down a sent that just sits still

Hey, Pers. Orb of Imposition is bugged? That's a shame. Any possible way you guys can share how this was tested? I wish to test this for myself in order to confirm it.

And it's true, stacking WIS is indeed impractical, but I'm not saying that people should stack WIS in order to negate the CC reduction from Tenacity. WIS is a Secondary Attribute for CW's, meaning it's generally around 17 - 19 at level 60. That's 7% - 9% added CC buff on top of the 66% CC penetration for PVP.

kweassa wrote: »

The only class that has been hit, even with 66% penetration to CC res, is CWs. I've met some CWs that still can do the meatball combos, but the rest who has not adequately rolled their dice with high WIS, they can't hit that combo anymore. Ofcourse, the ice ray root is still frickin annoying and lasts for more than 2~3 secs (and I'm a halfling with elven battle), but generally the CWs are the major victims.

Friend, it perplexes me as to how the only class that gets a CC penetration bonus in PVP are major "victims." The meatball combo has been greatly affected due to the Prone mechanic changes, but the rest of their CC's remain almost relatively untouched even if you factor the rough average of 30% CC resist at high end Tenacity Gear + Racial Bonuses. CW's penetrate 66% of that 30%, and 10% CC resist remains. Only the CW has this advantage, while every other class does not. I find it hard to believe that a 10% reduction to their CC duration will break the class for PVP. Meatballs on the other hand are gimped, but that's another story.

As for the topic of GWF's and GF's being able to prone spam people to death, I'd agree if it were only GWF's. But the GF prone spams is something I can soak. I'm not spec-ed for CON nor do I have loads of Tenacity + DR, but GF prone combos are tolerable particularly because of how they are missing the GWF's Deep Gash. Deep Gash is what makes GWF prone spams intolerable, and this'll be fixed in Icewind Dale.

loboguild · March 2014

People already suggested that SE benefits far more from power than it probably should. Proven PVPers report crits in the range from 25k at (nearly) full health regularly (to be fair, that's not exactly 34k, but still). I'm very careful with comments from the PVP community because you have to crawl through all these bias and stuff, but the frequency of reports suggest some truth behind it. Especially since some numbers come from TRs.

Not re-reading all threads, but there were mentions of twitch videos showing the high crits (not talking about the 215k one). Also:

js3b wrote: »

Shocking execution IS broken AND WILL be fixed.. It just CANT stay doing 30k+ crit on a 75% health ... Just stupid .... Well i hope... or not... :P

Ps: Im a pvp rogue

Just a random quote.

crazymikee · March 2014

Honestly If Ice Knife benifited from Armor Pen, that would solve a LOT of the balancing problems, in my eyes anyway. Hopefully other people will agree with me, only because right now Ice Knife should be the hardest hitting power a CW has, just like SE is the hardest hitting power a TR has, but as of now it's easy to high higher with chill strike or ice rays on a CW, because those benefit from Armor pen, it's beyond me that SE has a lot of benefits straight up and Ice Knife has almost none, and the ones it has are insignificant and worthless in every other situation, no one specs their character to only get good hits with Ice Knife, and mind you even with that it will max at most a 20k, while for SE which is a similar ability usually hits minimum 20k, at around 50-70% health. If Ice Knife benifited from Armor Pen I feel like the amount of topics about the subject will go down, less QQing from PvPers from me means happier PvPers and less bching on the forums :P

schandi23 · March 2014

So i must be undergeared like hell...SE minimum 20k this is my maximum under 50% health...
I don't know where u get ur damage numbers i never hit this high or was hitten this high about over 50% life. Crits over 28k i only know from Youtube...

twilightwatchman · March 2014

loboguild wrote: »

Yes, it can.

Got hit with SE at full HP twice in a match today. Same Rogue. Took off about half my HP (13-14k hit).

And I was running my own Rogue with full Grim set, R6 enchants, and Briartwine armour enchant. So not a tanky build by any measure.

Some of these big numbers being reported must be from players at the extreme range of gearing. Or with targets heavily debuffed.

vorphied · March 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

And it's true, stacking WIS is indeed impractical, but I'm not saying that people should stack WIS in order to negate the CC reduction from Tenacity. WIS is a Secondary Attribute for CW's, meaning it's generally around 17 - 19 at level 60. That's 7% - 9% added CC buff on top of the 66% CC penetration for PVP.

Yes, but that's just status quo in WIS department. CWs weren't touted for their amazing, inescapable CC chains of death even prior to Tenacity, and they certainly aren't now while rocking the same WIS as before. The CW's only real prone chain was already easy to stuff or to avoid if anticipated, and now it's not guaranteed even if pulled off perfectly.

To get back to the original topic, the issue is much less about Ice Knife (other than the fact that it's comparatively anemic right now) and much more about SE. There's a whole thread somewhere about post-patch SE.

pers3phone · March 2014

todesfaelle wrote: »

Hey, Pers. Orb of Imposition is bugged? That's a shame. Any possible way you guys can share how this was tested? I wish to test this for myself in order to confirm it.

And it's true, stacking WIS is indeed impractical, but I'm not saying that people should stack WIS in order to negate the CC reduction from Tenacity. WIS is a Secondary Attribute for CW's, meaning it's generally around 17 - 19 at level 60. That's 7% - 9% added CC buff on top of the 66% CC penetration for PVP.

Friend, it perplexes me as to how the only class that gets a CC penetration bonus in PVP are major "victims." The meatball combo has been greatly affected due to the Prone mechanic changes, but the rest of their CC's remain almost relatively untouched even if you factor the rough average of 30% CC resist at high end Tenacity Gear + Racial Bonuses. CW's penetrate 66% of that 30%, and 10% CC resist remains. Only the CW has this advantage, while every other class does not. I find it hard to believe that a 10% reduction to their CC duration will break the class for PVP. Meatballs on the other hand are gimped, but that's another story.

As for the topic of GWF's and GF's being able to prone spam people to death, I'd agree if it were only GWF's. But the GF prone spams is something I can soak. I'm not spec-ed for CON nor do I have loads of Tenacity + DR, but GF prone combos are tolerable particularly because of how they are missing the GWF's Deep Gash. Deep Gash is what makes GWF prone spams intolerable, and this'll be fixed in Icewind Dale.

Hey

- Orb of Imposition
I never tested this myself throughly. However I did take 3/3 in it when I respecced after Tenacity and used it for a week and didn't notice absolutely any increase in CC. Back to Storm Spell.
- Wisdom. Mine is 15. Tried it at 20 before but didn't made any sizeable difference. Con however does. Even Cha does more than Wis.

Crowd Control

This is actually a multifaceted issue. There are quite a few things that make life miserable for a CW, I'll list them below:
- halfling/dwarf. This is a HUGE advantage. The random CC resists coming from their racial are amazingly annoying
- deflect. Each deflected encounter with a CC component will shorten CC significantly. Recognized as bug. The classes having most deflect are the ones we NEED CC to survive against - GWFs, GFs, TRs, HRs.
- Repel is almost fully broken. Reported as well. Gets resisted like 80% of the times, resulting in a very short stun with no push
Honorary mention: Elven Battle enchant, high (22+ or so) Wisdom. If you meet high Wis halfling DC (which most PvP DCs are), they are almost unCCable (i.e. no landing direct combos on them most times)

These things being said, the shard combo still works half decently on non-halflings.

GFs and GWFs

You find GF prone-spam tolerable? Not sure about this. The best GFs I fought can keep me prone so long I basically don't even have time to cast shard. So even that would be OK if their damage was relatively low, as they are also very tanky, however... GF damage is extremely spiky. If GF is specced properly for PvP and has some skills, CW has very low life expectancy.

As for GWFs, Deep Gash is just an annoyance. What is actually truly bad is that they have the GF paragon and run with full CC setups that do MUCH MUCH better CC than a control wizard (true for GF as well). Takedown, FLS, Roar (which is bugged and probably goes through immunities and tenacity), Savage Advance, and on top of this IBS which hits like a truck.

What keeps your adversary truly disabled?

Prones - they are the TRUE CC, not half second entangle that can be escaped from.

GFs and GWFs have most and easiest to land ones.

That's about it.

hefisdo · March 2014

pers3phone wrote: »

half second entangle

I did use an entangle on a GWF yesterday. I didn't even see the CC because I blinked.

demonkyuubi · March 2014

pers3phone wrote: »

What keeps your adversary truly disabled?

Prones - they are the TRUE CC, not half second entangle that can be escaped from.

GFs and GWFs have most and easiest to land ones.

That's about it.

i completely agree. prone chains are some of the most annoying things to deal with since it can keep u down for a long period of time. only equivalent a wizard has ever done to me is when they got a lucky shot by dropping a meteor directly on-top of me and that is not frequent.

nobody fears cc from wizards since it's just an annoyance. everyone fears the prone spam and to a lesser extent, hunters spamming disruptive shot.

dnosrc · March 2014

crazymikee wrote: »

Honestly If Ice Knife benifited from Armor Pen, that would solve a LOT of the balancing problems, in my eyes anyway. Hopefully other people will agree with me, only because right now Ice Knife should be the hardest hitting power a CW has, just like SE is the hardest hitting power a TR has, but as of now it's easy to high higher with chill strike or ice rays on a CW, because those benefit from Armor pen, it's beyond me that SE has a lot of benefits straight up and Ice Knife has almost none, and the ones it has are insignificant and worthless in every other situation, no one specs their character to only get good hits with Ice Knife, and mind you even with that it will max at most a 20k, while for SE which is a similar ability usually hits minimum 20k, at around 50-70% health. If Ice Knife benifited from Armor Pen I feel like the amount of topics about the subject will go down, less QQing from PvPers from me means happier PvPers and less bching on the forums :P

Icy Rays doesn't benefit from ArmorPen ...

drscone · March 2014

crazymikee wrote: »

Honestly If Ice Knife benifited from Armor Pen, that would solve a LOT of the balancing problems, in my eyes anyway. Hopefully other people will agree with me, only because right now Ice Knife should be the hardest hitting power a CW has, just like SE is the hardest hitting power a TR has, but as of now it's easy to high higher with chill strike or ice rays on a CW, because those benefit from Armor pen,

Icy Rays does not benefit from ArP. It is easy to really boost its damage tho by having it on tab and taking the Transcended Master feat.

froszzt · March 2014

I was one hit from 100% hp last night by SE.

Undodgable in PvP is wrong no matter the damage though. It's just extra sad that it's the same class that runs around invisible or in itc that has this almighty power. (ofc they use pbile too, why stop trolling at invisible/immune, right?)

froszzt · March 2014

hefisdo wrote: »

I did use an entangle on a GWF yesterday. I didn't even see the CC because I blinked.

Yeah, entangle, chill strike, repel, you name it. It doesn't face a GWF. Gear and DR's aside, I have plenty of times seen a GWF running on a rampage while gettins 2 IK in his neck plus other attacks. Looks kinda funny when they just don't give a fk. Ever met a GWF that didn't chase you? Probably not, they always do, because they have nothing to fear. GWF should get a longer unstoppable time and also be invisible during it, you know, to balance it a bit.

Ice Knife Vs Shocking Execution

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