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Fighting the new FotM PoB TRs..
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Since the crushing defeat against Sicarius, I've spent the last two weeks concentrating on refining my current build to a bit higher standards. Had to rethink about a lot of stuff, including the importance of HP. Even still, I've got enough to conviction to dare say the PoB builds are simply over-hyped and many TRs are approaching it the wrong way when trying to fight against it. Ofcourse, the bit I've learned would be you need at least a certain amount of HP buffer + regen + lifesteal against very high-level opponents if you want to be able to survive long enough to exploit its weakness, in the first place.
But that being said, IMO the basic theory in defeating the PoB builds would be in exploiting its weakness -- which, surprisingly, is its lack of firepower.
...
Okay, when I just said "lack of firepower", I can see a lot of you guys reading this would think to yourselves, "What in samhill is this guy talking about? PoB hurts like hell... there's nothing you can do as your stealth is peeled off and you're just ROFLSTOMped.."
Well, in that case I would like you guys to close your eyes and re-live all your humiliating experiences against a PoB build. Were you really snuffed out because his firepower was so strong? I think not.
This is generally what goes on:
Yes, the typical winning scenario for the PoB build.
Now, in this scenario the first thing I've noticed was the power choices.
Typically, the usual MI PoB build TR has;
Encounters: Path of Blades, ITC, SS
At-wills: Duelist's Flurry, CoS
What is most noticeable for me is that none of the Encounters are active offense powers. Most orthodox-build TRs use ITC and SS, and one other offensive Encounter of their choice. While TRs typically make good use of at-wills, more so than any other class, still often that one offensive Encounter also plays a very crucial role. PoB builds switch that to a passive, time-activation AoE power that is "fire and forget", and typically goes into a pretty long recharge.
....
What this means, is rather than you lose because you are outgunned, you lose because you lose the stealth fight. You're exposed, while the other guy's not. He hits you while under stealth, receiving all the stealth-related damage buffs, while you become a sandbag that cannot hit back.
...
Then the question would be this:
What happens if both lose stealth?
If we assume both TRs lose stealth, then the conditions are the same. Or rather, slightly in your advantage:
....
Now, to me, if we sum up all of the above pointers, the analysis seems to be clear.
It seems to me the solution is not trying to win the stealth-fight. Obviously, there's no trying to run around and hope to peel his stealth off first when the other guy's using PoB. That's simply impossible.
However, what IS possible, is a WAR OF ATTRITION.
That is the method I find best in dealing with PoB builds. I cannot guarantee a win, but it is way better than just running away and doing nothing, or attempt a stealth-fight and miserably fail. What I mean by this, is a very simple, rough, and primordial way of fighting.
1. When you see a TR going into stealth and PoB activating, he is trying to find you and keep you within his PoB range.
Good. That's what you want, too. That way, it'll be easier to find him.
2. What you want to do, is not try to move away from PoB, but engage stealth, and try to find him within the stealth duration. If you are lucky, you will find him. If not, your stealth will peel away, and the other guy will be stationary, throwing CoS at you. Whichever way, you need to find him.
...and after finding him, you go berserk.
3. He just fired off his PoB. His CoS is all or nearly spent. He doesn't have any other big attacks. All his got is DF. Preferably, (and recommended), you will be using Sly Flourish instead of DF. Just hit him with SF like you are fighting a PvE mob. The only thing to remember is to dodge/move away from the 3rd flurry attack of DF. After that, get right back, and just go hit him. If he moves away, follow, attack. Don't think about dodging or fancy moving. Just avoid the last flurry.
4. At this point, what will happen is (if you've used enough SF with the same Bilethorn) the other guy loses his stealth as well. Initially, both sides will have received heavy damage. Probably you have received a bit higher loss. However, instead of being able to just hit you from stealth unharmed, as a result the other guy has also lost stealth. He will throw a SS at you to re-enter stealth, but the attacks you've kept up just before he goes back in will proc Bilethorn hits, and his second stealth will end short. About at this time, his PoB ends.
Yes. In this war of attrition, the result you want is this:
At this point, he'll probably have lost maybe 30% HP. You've probably have lost maybe around 50%. Now, this 9~10 seconds of total vulnerability the other guy is in is the moment to turn the tables. The best result you can achieve with this war of attrition.
This is the moment where you fire off everything you can, or if you've managed to save your SS, it is the moment to enter stealth, and then keep him from entering stealth.
...
Simply put, this tactic will work if you manage to locate him in the first few seconds, the moment where the other guy is most smug and unsuspecting, probably thinking you are running away from PoB, and will come straight for you trying to keep you within its AoE. You need to repeat as much attacks as possible to peel his stealth off -- no matter how much you are being attacked.
...
Empirically, this works right below the premade level. Didn't work against Sicarius because I was a bit disoriented psychologically, as well as my stats weren't molded well enough for premade-level competition. Would keep losing just too much HP before finding him.. and the relative difference in amount of HP and damage was just too big.
Hence, the number one requirement for the above tactic to work, would be you need to have enough HP buffer to withstand the initial attacks. It is absolutely certain that until you kill off the other guy's stealth, you will be losing HP faster than he is. Hence, that's why you need at least as much HP pool/regen/lifesteal as the other guy. In order to go into attrition, you need to have that much huge pool of resources to sacrifice -- at times, it will feel more like scorched-earth tactics than just plain ol' attrition.
You need a lot of guts to see this through, but in many cases it will pay off a lot more than just being run down by a skill-less FotM build which any ham-fisted idiot can use. It's probably a very effective build against permas, tho.
But that being said, IMO the basic theory in defeating the PoB builds would be in exploiting its weakness -- which, surprisingly, is its lack of firepower.
...
Okay, when I just said "lack of firepower", I can see a lot of you guys reading this would think to yourselves, "What in samhill is this guy talking about? PoB hurts like hell... there's nothing you can do as your stealth is peeled off and you're just ROFLSTOMped.."
Well, in that case I would like you guys to close your eyes and re-live all your humiliating experiences against a PoB build. Were you really snuffed out because his firepower was so strong? I think not.
This is generally what goes on:
I've said this before; but for some strange reason, the PoB blades that spawn under your feet seem to peel away a huge portion of stealth with each hit, almost at abnormal levels. I'm not sure if its a bug or its just like that, but I've been hit with a lot of stuff at stealth, and empirically, not even the most powerful attacks just chunk away that much stealth with each hit.
Is there some sort of mechanic that deals extra damage to stealth when it is AoE? Or is there some bug with PoB that ignores [Tenacious Concealment]? I know not. But whatever the reason, PoB peels stealth at an abnormally fast rate... and that makes any TR want to try and run away from its AoE. Run away, dodge, whatever one does, the results are always the same: the other guy has plenty of stealth left, you're exposed.
Then the barrage of attacks start, you are constantly bombarded by attacks and your stealth does not replenish. The other guy plants SS on you and remains in stealth, you didn't even get to target the guy, so your stealth is still not up.
And the attacks start all again, and then PoB activates again... by the time the other guy runs out of his second stealth and for the first come becomes visible, you are less than 50% in HP, probably more like 30~40%.
Yes, the typical winning scenario for the PoB build.
Now, in this scenario the first thing I've noticed was the power choices.
Typically, the usual MI PoB build TR has;
Encounters: Path of Blades, ITC, SS
At-wills: Duelist's Flurry, CoS
What is most noticeable for me is that none of the Encounters are active offense powers. Most orthodox-build TRs use ITC and SS, and one other offensive Encounter of their choice. While TRs typically make good use of at-wills, more so than any other class, still often that one offensive Encounter also plays a very crucial role. PoB builds switch that to a passive, time-activation AoE power that is "fire and forget", and typically goes into a pretty long recharge.
....
What this means, is rather than you lose because you are outgunned, you lose because you lose the stealth fight. You're exposed, while the other guy's not. He hits you while under stealth, receiving all the stealth-related damage buffs, while you become a sandbag that cannot hit back.
...
Then the question would be this:
What happens if both lose stealth?
If we assume both TRs lose stealth, then the conditions are the same. Or rather, slightly in your advantage:
1. PoB, while has a pretty hefty overall damage accumulation, still has low DPS. Conceptually sort of like a DoT that needs a hit-check for every attack (a considerable amount could be dodged, deflected, or made waste by running out of AoE). If you use LB, you deal every damage in one attack, or if you use Dazing Strike, can be used 3 times as often in one duration of PoB, deal a hefty amount of damage plus render the opponent dazed, and deal in additional attacks.
2. CoS has high DPS but is limited to charges, so after the first few seconds when it is fired off, then it becomes almost a non-issue once charges are depleted. (either 1 attack per every 3 secs (low DPS), or have to wait a long, long period for 2nd barrage (24secs for full 8 charges reset)) This is a draw, if both sides use CoS.
3. At-wills would also be a draw, if both sides use DF. However, if you use Sly Flourish, you are at an absolute advantage. TRs hit with DF from stealth where they can approach and initiate attack close enough to land the flurry part against an unwitting enemy, or in chaotic big fights -- not when both parties are clearly visible in 1v1. When both sides are visible, DF is nothing but a slow punch that is telegraphed from a zillion miles away.
....
Now, to me, if we sum up all of the above pointers, the analysis seems to be clear.
1. People are put in initial/huge disadvantage when meeting PoB builds, because they lose the stealth-fight.
2. Once you lose the stealth-fight, you simply lose.
3. Running away from PoB doesn't do you much good.
It seems to me the solution is not trying to win the stealth-fight. Obviously, there's no trying to run around and hope to peel his stealth off first when the other guy's using PoB. That's simply impossible.
However, what IS possible, is a WAR OF ATTRITION.
That is the method I find best in dealing with PoB builds. I cannot guarantee a win, but it is way better than just running away and doing nothing, or attempt a stealth-fight and miserably fail. What I mean by this, is a very simple, rough, and primordial way of fighting.
1. When you see a TR going into stealth and PoB activating, he is trying to find you and keep you within his PoB range.
Good. That's what you want, too. That way, it'll be easier to find him.
2. What you want to do, is not try to move away from PoB, but engage stealth, and try to find him within the stealth duration. If you are lucky, you will find him. If not, your stealth will peel away, and the other guy will be stationary, throwing CoS at you. Whichever way, you need to find him.
...and after finding him, you go berserk.
3. He just fired off his PoB. His CoS is all or nearly spent. He doesn't have any other big attacks. All his got is DF. Preferably, (and recommended), you will be using Sly Flourish instead of DF. Just hit him with SF like you are fighting a PvE mob. The only thing to remember is to dodge/move away from the 3rd flurry attack of DF. After that, get right back, and just go hit him. If he moves away, follow, attack. Don't think about dodging or fancy moving. Just avoid the last flurry.
4. At this point, what will happen is (if you've used enough SF with the same Bilethorn) the other guy loses his stealth as well. Initially, both sides will have received heavy damage. Probably you have received a bit higher loss. However, instead of being able to just hit you from stealth unharmed, as a result the other guy has also lost stealth. He will throw a SS at you to re-enter stealth, but the attacks you've kept up just before he goes back in will proc Bilethorn hits, and his second stealth will end short. About at this time, his PoB ends.
Yes. In this war of attrition, the result you want is this:
(1) His PoB ends, goes into around 20secs recharge
(2) He just used his SS but his 2nd stealth ended really short -- still 9~10 secs left until recharge.
(3) He used most of his CoS shots earlier on, charges still recovering
(4) ...and he most probably have used his ITC when you were going all-out berserk in melee with SF
At this point, he'll probably have lost maybe 30% HP. You've probably have lost maybe around 50%. Now, this 9~10 seconds of total vulnerability the other guy is in is the moment to turn the tables. The best result you can achieve with this war of attrition.
This is the moment where you fire off everything you can, or if you've managed to save your SS, it is the moment to enter stealth, and then keep him from entering stealth.
...
Simply put, this tactic will work if you manage to locate him in the first few seconds, the moment where the other guy is most smug and unsuspecting, probably thinking you are running away from PoB, and will come straight for you trying to keep you within its AoE. You need to repeat as much attacks as possible to peel his stealth off -- no matter how much you are being attacked.
...
Empirically, this works right below the premade level. Didn't work against Sicarius because I was a bit disoriented psychologically, as well as my stats weren't molded well enough for premade-level competition. Would keep losing just too much HP before finding him.. and the relative difference in amount of HP and damage was just too big.
Hence, the number one requirement for the above tactic to work, would be you need to have enough HP buffer to withstand the initial attacks. It is absolutely certain that until you kill off the other guy's stealth, you will be losing HP faster than he is. Hence, that's why you need at least as much HP pool/regen/lifesteal as the other guy. In order to go into attrition, you need to have that much huge pool of resources to sacrifice -- at times, it will feel more like scorched-earth tactics than just plain ol' attrition.
You need a lot of guts to see this through, but in many cases it will pay off a lot more than just being run down by a skill-less FotM build which any ham-fisted idiot can use. It's probably a very effective build against permas, tho.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Actually I don't use Bilethorn. I use Bronzewood. Also I've forgotten to add the "skill-less" comments come from Sicarius. Forgot to add the quote. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the shi*-slinging match on whose the skill-less or FotM guy. What I do care about is;
(1) The PoB builds are getting rapid attention from the TR folks in all levels of PvP
(2) Many have trouble finding a right counter to it
I'd love to see your opinions on what would be an efficient way to deal with it. Every bit of info helps.
Well aware of that, thank you.
That's an interesting thought experiment. I wonder how many TRs could really "get used to" GC in PvP. Certainly it doesn't seem to be the most popular of at-will choices in PvP as it is. Would the PoB build users really be compelled to give up any of either DF or CoS for GC?
More like observations than assumptions. Ofcourse, I fully admit the PotB build crowd themselves would probably adapt in the arms-race that is PvP. As it is, the current "standard" seems to be PoB/SS/ITC + DF/CoS. I do notice some would switch over to Vorpal rather than Bilethorn -- obviously since they would not need rely on it since PoB peels stealth so easily.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A full combat rogue see stealth as no more than a utility, thus does not care, truly, about extending it.
Same with PotB, before those that would twist the perma-stealth feat/encounters tune were using it, the combat rogue used it for what it is, a low-level LS tic in big fights, and an anti-perma tool.
To extend stealth reliably takes a lot of damage and survival-increasing feats/encounters away from selection.
That is the point you are capitalizing on here.
As a combat rogue glued to 2 unless explicitly told to back-cap due to bad pugs/2 abandonment issues, often taking on 2 of these perma builds at once, and nearly always killing one, if not both, this war of attrition is one I am very familiar with. Avoiding every single stealth extension feat/encounter lands you some nice survivability/damage options.
Also.... it's possible to 'psyche' the DF third hit, just so you know..... during that entire pause from the second the third can be fired. Most will just mash, but one who times the slower variant well can catch another thinking they dodged it.
FTR, I don't use SS.
ITC is on permanent q, but e and r will vary based on need often in PVP. I'll usually start with ITC,SB(Sorry, I have to dodge the *** out of prone-lock g(w)f's, smoke bomb is the only real answer to that,. as well as being a HR/CW/DC catcher/killer), and PoTB. If tower trolls are present deft strike may see use replacing PoTB, depends on how many, sometimes one Lurkers Assault(yes, this is an offensive, not a defensive skill lol, teleport to target+massive damage increase) and me killing them outright will discourage further use of this tactic. Sometimes even that will not end up being needed due to nasty CoS crits. And this is the thing it really comes down to. The combat rogue has already given up the stealth fight, does not care to fight that fight, and instead seeks ways to maximize his potential 'in plain sight'. If stealth is up? great! but I'm not going to scrap one ounce of survivability/damage/utility for it.
It actually makes for a stronger build, to the point unstoppable, feared by so many, is just a 'laugh and burn it dead' moment, as at-wills do so like a train wreck.
At day one of Permastealth era (*mentions to INTRogue) Path of the Blades has been the singlemost effective counter against enemy stealth. PoB is a skill straight from the Combat TR arsenal, something I myself have been using against Permas since OB. Now the issue is the Permastealth's choice Impact Shot was nerfed to the point that PoB is the next best thing.
Problem: Bacterial infection using antibiotic as its weapon (I apologize for the poor analogy.)
You are in the right direction, but you might be missing an integral point around here, especially if you are fighting against the current meta. It's not simple PoB, rather it's PoB+Ap gain = Shocking Execution.
As a TR, I don't even dare go near 50% health when dueling another TR. If it happens, I immediately pop Waters of Thingamabob + Battle Potion.
This is completely true. This also only applies to stealth builds fighting stealth builds.
A TR who utilize stealth to a) buff encounters b) land a DF c) disengage only uses stealth for utility, and can survive 80% of the time without it. A true Combat TR wielding his PoB for its original purpose is unlikely to lose in a stealth fight. He needs none.
How is PoB a fotm ability? I've been using it since I rolled a tr, it is by far the best defense against stealth.
I just don't understand why you made a guide based on combating this particular style of TR, I rarely see this build. The TR's that I have the most trouble with are the ones that run decoy, ITC, path or dazing strike, gc, and cloud. Although I'm not a perma, so I'm not really sure how a perma on perma fight would look.
If you are below 50% first you are going to most likely going to die to SE.
I think if you are struggling against PotB then you should do one of 2 things.
a) Run decoy, let those blade ticks add to your recovery so you can be the first one to use SE
b) Run Potb for yourself, it is the best tool against perma's.
Thank you for justifying my use of Sly Flourish.
Finally someone understands.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
I lose all the time and i dont mind losing, however spawn griefing, cheating or hacking will always be reported.
More like, this is what still works, so we are migrating to use it.
I would still be using other encounters if they worked the way they did Pre-Patch.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
as a scoundrel you can use sly flourish because you have a feat to increase its dmg. as an executioner it will depend on the enemy honestly. Most rogues are focused on pvping other rogues, you should adopt a build that allows you to prevail in any situation in my humble opinion.
Ive used GC, SF and DF extensively in pvp and what I can say is, GC kills cws and maybe rogues, you won't be likely to kill a sentinel or a gf or a perma healing astral shield spamming dc, just saying...
SF is awesome because its instant dmg right where you can hit and run, mobility can go a long way. (x3blade used to like SF a lot just because of mobility)
DF is about timing, its slow and hard to get but once it hits it hits good! (although i've been running ss, itc for a long time, DF in pvp is new to me as I always preferred SF but not that I learned how to use it I can say it hits really hard, that is what i would pick against a very defensive opponent.
Enchant wise: bilethorn has been used by rogues for a long time now due to the fact that they couldn't afford vorpal, Banelorne's guide mentions it as an enchantment for those on a budget. FotM is a very offensive way to refer to people who use bile(before patch a perfect costed less than 3mil compared to 6.5 mil vorpal, pvp specialized chars that couldn't buy vorpal would just buy bile, I refined mine all the way up from lesser it took ages, now I am a FotM?) Bile can be used to prevent hunter from casting aimed shot as well as to eat gf's guard meter... Stop hating on Bile.
Encounter wise: if you run SS, ItC, BaS it becomes as defensive as it gets, you will last through PotB and maybe hit a flurry with your bile and also ruin the enemy's stealth, most rogues dmg come from at-wills these days so you won't be too far back. If you also run PotB then timing will tell the difference, you can pop ItC right away to last through the flurry of daggers and PotB, then after 5 sec you pop your PotB plus stealth, then burst with daggers and flurry on the enemy( that is how i have been approaching rogues lately and it works fine, not all the time but fine.) Or you can run away from the PotB radius, hide or pop horse to recover stealth, then come back after it) You would be impressed of how in many of my 1x1s the enemy thinks I've ran away completely and then I gank from behind.
The only reason rogues been using PotB and Bile is because of their efficiency in pvp, everyone just wants to win.
peace
Like Morenthar, Gloaming Cut is my execution At-Will. Anything below 50% HP is prey to Gloaming Cut and its 30% increased damage. And it's true, Gloaming Cut doesn't hit very well on opponents with full HP. But that's when the 2nd At-Will comes in. Cloud of Steel is used on squishy targets like HR, CW, TR's, while DF is used on DC's, GF's and GWF. Soften up the opponents using the 2nd At-Will and let Gloaming Cut do its wonders after which. Coincidentally it is pretty easy to land in Stealth since it auto-targets on whoever's near (who is visible), or whoever is in your target reticule who is near.
For the topic of Bilethorn vs. Vorpal, well, it's not really a question. Why choose when you can just have both? I have both enchants and switch from Vorp to BT depending on the number of TR's/GF's in the opposing team. If there are 2 TR's in the opponent's team, I automatically slot Bilethorn. If there is only 1 TR and 1 GF, I'll slot Bilethorn depending on the TR's build. Bilethorn is not always the top enchant, it still depends on how often you use DF, since DF synergizes very well with how Bilethorn behaves. No other At-Will in the game hits like DF. It hits for a LOT, which tends to make any and all weapon enchants (not just Bilethorn) that deal a percentage of our Weapon Damage as additional damage, proc per hit of the flurry motion (3rd strike of DF). So the 3rd strike of DF will deal 23.5% extra Weapon Damage each time one of those mini-flurries hit an opponent.
So technically, you can use P. Lightning and P. Holy Avenger and you'll pretty much get about the same DPS as you would with Bilethorn. It's DF that synergizes VERY well with Weapon Enchants, and not exactly Bilethorn being OP. DF is the powerful one. No other At-Will behaves like DF as it is the only At-Will in the game that hits more than 10 times in one motion, taking advantage of the fact that Weapon Enchants proc their extra damage per hit. The only perk Bilethorn has that no other enchant has is that it eats up the TR Stealth Meter and GF Guard Meter very quickly. But that's about it. You can get the very same stuff with other Weapon Enchants that offers a percentage of our Weapon Damage as additional damage when you pair it up with DF.
Please forgive the dumb question, but how do you "see" the TR's build? I would love to see some of the builds of the tough TRs that wipe the floor with me.
I've been thinking about using BaS to counter PotB. PotB doesn't pick and choose which target to hit so you're guaranteed a dead dummy every time you use BaS. Coupled with Tactics, among other AP generating feats, you can get 2/3 of your AP bar from one BaS. Being able to daily the opponent every other rotation should swing the fight in your favor. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but every hit your dummy takes is one less hit you take.
Another thing I've been thinking about, to counter PotB, is using a non stealth based build. This, of course, is assuming you're fighting the other rogue 1v1, and you plan on swapping things back after. The main problem is that PotB kils your stealth meter, so if you are less dependent on stealth, it won't hurt you as badly. That being said, the only other options to swap out SS with are smoke bomb and lashing blade (assuming you have BaS for the AP, and are foregoing PotB), and I'm not sure if either of those are worth it.
Another possibility is to use PotB with SS and BaS, that way you can outlast the other rogue, and perma so his SS becomes useless. Again, you gain AP from the dummy, but you need to be quick about escaping the circle when the enemy uses PotB.
Unfortunately, I don't have any points in PotB as I tried it before my last respec (a month or so pre patch) and hated it, so I can't test out these theories. I'd be very grateful if someone else would try them out and post their results.
Edit: Quick question, PotB hits proc Bilethorn right?
PoB has no crits, no weapon procs.
...but for some strange reason just takes off a huge chunk of your stealth with each hit.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Sorry it's offtopic but iam curios
I am not saying GC is bad at all, I specced GC stealth as soon as you posted your first build and really liked it (I remember its title saying a cheaper effective way to achieve perma stealth, I loved it I was a 8k rogue who couldn't have enough Int or even silveries to follow x3lade), eventually I stopped using it because I was noticing some sentinels mitigating most of its dmg via def+deflect+regen, I just wasn't pulling enough dps, so I rerolled Int, specced nimble dodge and switched to SF, that balanced the stealth management without the 10% bonus from gloaming, I always thought DF was dumb in pvp but after watching Snow I started playing with it and now I love it lol. I still have my original rogue all saboteur, I still really like to play it but hes more defensive, full perma.
@Dragmosh
You can definitely use BaS to extend your stealth, if you slot tenacious concealment and tactics + action point gain feat you will be able to use lurkers more often and stay in stealth for even longer, every time I'm overwhelmed by someone or a group I pop lurkers and walk away or prepare a DF in a 1x1, remember though that your enemy can SS your dummy and refill his stealth.
@Shandi23 I would pick terror over lesser vorpal any day.
I do not know the answer for you question I never had a P. Vorpal or P. terror. Before tenacity I would say that vorpal for sure but now I really do not know. As for bilethorn, regardless of if you are scoundrel, it can be of great use, you can use cloud of steel with it or SF and it works great (I got a hunter ranger with bile, his spam shot gets everyone with it, lots of dots) Bile is useful not matter what path you choose or play style. If I could i would have a vorpal also, but I am poor lol, I would pick lesser bile over lesser vorpal also any day...
I've had some moderate success with BaS against PotB, but I've been primarily using it for the action point gain rather than the extended stealth time. I only use it when going up against a rogue with PotB, as I prefer having a damaging encounter (I use LB) to use against the other people on the enemy team. Anyway, here's some observations I've had
1) The dummy does swallow up a good percantage of the ticks
2) The dummy almost always dies during the duration of PotB. Enemy rogues tend not to use SS while in middle of PotB, so although they can, they don't usually use it to refill their stealth
3) Using it in stealth can usually extend my stealth long enough to have similar CDs with the other rogue, so I'm at little to no stealth disadvantage.
4) When in stealth, using it and then immediately dodging away works well enough to completely avoid PotB. The other rogue usually zooms in on the location where the blades are ticking, so the dummy usually distracts the other rogue until I can get out of range.
4)It's better to use BaS only when the enemy uses PotB. Although it's tempting to use it to extend stealth, when I do that, the enemy rogue frequently uses SS on it and disappears, yielding me no practical benefit. Additionally, the additional AP is better than the 10 seconds or so of stealth I get.
5)When out of stealth, the dodge of BaS helps get out of range of PotB
6)In longer 1v1 fights, I can usually get two to three dailies to the one the other rogue gets. Usually, these are the primary source of my damage, yielding between 60-80% of the damage I deal. (I use bloodbath at high HP and then shocking at less than 50%)
7)I get a daily every 1.5-2 rotations (a rotation is considered the CD of BaS, the longest CD I have) It's best to use a daily immediately before using BaS.
8)Using BaS when fighting off node is a bad idea as the dummy tends to get left behind as we gravitate towards the node.
9) The dummy usually dies in group fights, and also against GWFs and HRs. CWs, GFs, DCs, and TRs not using PotB are usually able to avoid it.
Some information about me: I use Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator. I'm a MI executioner build. Encounters other than BaS are SS and ITC. ~12k GS, and my rogue opponents in these observations are about the same (I think). Ability scores: 26 DEX, 19 STR, 17 CHA, 12 INT 12 CON, 10 WIS. CD on SS is about 13.7 seconds. I'm currently running Grim Scoundrel PVP set.