Current status of CW powers and Armor Penetration

Comments

• niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Thanks for the work Drscone! Your powers of persuasion to get the help of a Fell Troll is truely amazing...lol

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• spacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  I'm taking it that you've used ACT to parse yourself with these abilities and hit the Fell Troll about 20-100 times with each power both with and without ArP slotted on your character to arrive at your conclusions? I only ask because each power is inherently RNG which can easily mask ArP working or not working if you don't have a significant enough statistical base to compare overall damage to your armor penetration. (Unless the damage done clearly exceeds the tooltip by close to your ArP score, but even then if it's a power like Icy Terrain there can be other factors at work in your feating to exceed the tooltip.)
  
  I only ask because it concerns me that you posted a direct excerpt from your combat log that, not to be rude, doesn't prove much without an actual ACT parse both with, and without, your ArP slotted. Otherwise it will be virtually impossible to determine which ability is getting a boost unless it is significantly higher than the highest damage your spell can achieve. (To the tune of a 20% bonus that can not come from any other source in your feats/boons/etc.)
  
  Thanks for the effort regardless, I'd just like to know a little more about your methodology before I start reslotting.

  MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC

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• drscone Member Posts: 309 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  spacejew wrote: »

  I'm taking it that you've used ACT to parse yourself with these abilities and hit the Fell Troll about 20-100 times with each power both with and without ArP slotted on your character to arrive at your conclusions? I only ask because each power is inherently RNG which can easily mask ArP working or not working if you don't have a significant enough statistical base to compare overall damage to your armor penetration. (Unless the damage done clearly exceeds the tooltip by close to your ArP score, but even then if it's a power like Icy Terrain there can be other factors at work in your feating to exceed the tooltip.)
  
  I only ask because it concerns me that you posted a direct excerpt from your combat log that, not to be rude, doesn't prove much without an actual ACT parse both with, and without, your ArP slotted. Otherwise it will be virtually impossible to determine which ability is getting a boost unless it is significantly higher than the highest damage your spell can achieve. (To the tune of a 20% bonus that can not come from any other source in your feats/boons/etc.)
  
  Thanks for the effort regardless, I'd just like to know a little more about your methodology before I start reslotting.

  
  There's no methodology needed, unless I've misunderstood how the combat log works (which I can't deny is a possibility).
  
  The figure in brackets shows the 'raw' damage from the effect, the figure before that, not in brackets shows the actual damage inflicted once all debuffs, buffs and other things(?) are accounted for.
  
  For an effect like Armour Penetration with nothing else going on, you only need 1 hit with a spell to see whether ArP is working or not for that spell. So for a really simple case like Icy Rays on a creature with 20% defence you get :
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Icy Rays deals 2695 (3368) Cold to Fell Troll.
  
  i.e. 3368 raw damage, 2695 inflicted. 2695 is 80% of 3368, which means IR does not benefit from ArP. No need to keep doing it and no need to use ACT. Just open the combat log and try it yourself. I'm happy to be corrected if this isn't how things work

  Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW

  Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?

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• niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  drscone wrote: »

  There's no methodology needed, unless I've misunderstood how the combat log works (which I can't deny is a possibility).
  
  The figure in brackets shows the 'raw' damage from the effect, the figure before that, not in brackets shows the actual damage inflicted once all debuffs, buffs and other things(?) are accounted for.
  
  For an effect like Armour Penetration with nothing else going on, you only need 1 hit with a spell to see whether ArP is working or not for that spell. So for a really simple case like Icy Rays on a creature with 20% defence you get :
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Icy Rays deals 2695 (3368) Cold to Fell Troll.
  
  i.e. 3368 raw damage, 2695 inflicted. 2695 is 80% of 3368, which means IR does not benefit from ArP. No need to keep doing it and no need to use ACT. Just open the combat log and try it yourself. I'm happy to be corrected if this isn't how things work

  
  You are such a diplomat...lol that is exactly right. No need to introduce statistical analysis into ARP testing. It either works or doesn't. As long as you are hitting the right kind of mob and do not have any interfering buffs...ARP is easy to test.

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• niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Am I reading this right? It looks like Ray of Enfeeblement did benefit.
  
  Edit...forgot about Elemental Empowerment and the ROE debuff... I retract my question/statement.

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• drscone Member Posts: 309 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Oops. I should have mentioned - my ArP is over 2400 so easily enough to punch through his puny defences. I haven't tested any of the powers on tab either...
  
  It is frustrating that nothing has been fixed in this regard. Most of those that are crippled are key PvP powers and it does make me wonder if I should be slotting something like Chill Strike on Tab, Sudden Storm and Shard instead of Icy Rays and RoE against single target bosses like Valindra. Cheers for the comments niadan

  Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW

  Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?

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• brazennl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 44

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  I could never get myself to actually do this, so mad props to you! Glad to see that for PVE (the only thing I do), we're in kind of a good place.
  
  Thanks!

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• davecheese Member Posts: 170 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  Thank you for testing this! I will link to this thread in the bug list thread and copy your findings over!
  
  Can you test your At Wills too please?

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• hfgtfsdfs Member Posts: 688 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  I tought they fixed armpen on iceknife?!..

  ZengiaH@ejziponken

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• spacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  niadan wrote: »

  You are such a diplomat...lol that is exactly right. No need to introduce statistical analysis into ARP testing. It either works or doesn't. As long as you are hitting the right kind of mob and do not have any interfering buffs...ARP is easy to test.

  
  I was actually curious because the percent increase of damage listed from his combat log is inconsistent in the amount it increased each power by. Which would seem to indicate that ArP is not, in fact, working correctly on many CW powers. Or at least not consistently taking advantage of it's full value.
  
  Otherwise it should increase by the same percentage with each hit, given that the targets armor is not changing.
  
  I.E. each power should hit for, lets say, a 15% increase if the target has 15% mitigation. It should function in that way according to what I think I know but I'm certainly not perfect. I'm only asking because I'm curious if there's an answer, or if I'm just doing the math wrong. Maybe, like the other poster, I was doing the math on powers that are using the OP's debuff feat which could take mitigation negative.
  
  Example:
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 930 (979) Cold to Fell Troll. (-5%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Storm Spell deals 1019 (1072) Lightning to Fell Troll. (-5%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Sudden Storm deals 9751 Lightning to Fell Troll. (???)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Ice Knife deals 6695 (8368) Cold to Fell Troll. (-19.9%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Entangling Force deals 898 (1039) Arcane to Fell Troll. (-13.5%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Chill Strike deals 3077 Cold to Fell Troll. (???)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Shardplosion deals 6068 (5618) Arcane to Fell Troll. (+7.4%)
  
  
  Do you see my point now?
  

  i.e. 3368 raw damage, 2695 inflicted. 2695 is 80% of 3368, which means IR does not benefit from ArP. No need to keep doing it and no need to use ACT. Just open the combat log and try it yourself. I'm happy to be corrected if this isn't how things work

  
  I was under the impression it was the reverse of that, with the final number being in brackets and the 'raw' number being listed just before it. Either way you can see the percentage change, it only changes the plus/minus which is important but doesn't seriously change this illustration's point. (I Parse everything, and never really wade through the combat log. I should know which is which, but it's been a while since I've fooled with the in-game logs.)
  
  So you're probably right on what order the numbers go in, but it still doesn't explain why the percentage is changing unless each power takes advantage of ArP in a different ratio. (Which we do know seems to be the case for a lot of powers.)
  
  I'm also curious why some of your powers don't have a brackets listing at all, as every one of them should have two right?

  MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC

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• drscone Member Posts: 309 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  spacejew wrote: »

  I was actually curious because the percent increase of damage listed from his combat log is inconsistent in the amount it increased each power by. Which would seem to indicate that ArP is not, in fact, working correctly on many CW powers. Or at least not consistently taking advantage of it's full value.
  
  Otherwise it should increase by the same percentage with each hit, given that the targets armor is not changing.
  
  I.E. each power should hit for, lets say, a 15% increase if the target has 15% mitigation. It should function in that way according to what I think I know but I'm certainly not perfect. I'm only asking because I'm curious if there's an answer, or if I'm just doing the math wrong. Maybe, like the other poster, I was doing the math on powers that are using the OP's debuff feat which could take mitigation negative.
  
  Example:
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Conduit of Ice deals 930 (979) Cold to Fell Troll. (-5%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Storm Spell deals 1019 (1072) Lightning to Fell Troll. (-5%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Sudden Storm deals 9751 Lightning to Fell Troll. (???)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Ice Knife deals 6695 (8368) Cold to Fell Troll. (-19.9%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Entangling Force deals 898 (1039) Arcane to Fell Troll. (-13.5%)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Chill Strike deals 3077 Cold to Fell Troll. (???)
  
  [Combat (Self)] Your Shardplosion deals 6068 (5618) Arcane to Fell Troll. (+7.4%)
  
  
  Do you see my point now?
  
  
  
  I was under the impression it was the reverse of that, with the final number being in brackets and the 'raw' number being listed just before it. Either way you can see the percentage change, it only changes the plus/minus which is important but doesn't seriously change this illustration's point. (I Parse everything, and never really wade through the combat log. I should know which is which, but it's been a while since I've fooled with the in-game logs.)
  
  So you're probably right on what order the numbers go in, but it still doesn't explain why the percentage is changing unless each power takes advantage of ArP in a different ratio. (Which we do know seems to be the case for a lot of powers.)
  
  I'm also curious why some of your powers don't have a brackets listing at all, as every one of them should have two right?

  
  That's a good question - about no brackets. I assume that there's no buff / debuff at all.
  
  Some of the results up there are skewed by other effects which are unavoidable with my spec. So I have the Assailing Force feat for Conduit of Ice, which reduces enemy def by 15%. If ArP worked for CoI, it would apply first, reducing the Troll's def to 0 since ArP cannot push an enemies def into negative figures. Confusingly however all other debuffs can. So if ArP works for CoI, I'd get a +15% boost to my damage. If it doesn't I just reduce the trolls def to 5% and I get a 5% reduction in damage. This is in fact what we see, ergo ArP doesn't work with CoI.
  
  Elemental Empowerment is another of my feats which reduces enemy def by 10% for my arcane encounters. This affects things like Entangling Force I think. However I would have expected this to end up as a 10% reduction in damage, not 13.5%. The ShardSplosion is equally confusing - it ought to be more damage than that.
  
  The server is down at the moment for some reason, so I can't try it again and see if the numbers repeat. If anyone can cast any light on it I'd be interested to know what you think is going on here. Thanks for the catch SpaceJew

  Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW

  Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?

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• spacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  drscone wrote: »

  That's a good question - about no brackets. I assume that there's no buff / debuff at all.

  
  Yes, it really should have two values on Sudden Storm. There's not really any logical reason why it wouldn't.
  

  Elemental Empowerment is another of my feats which reduces enemy def by 10% for my arcane encounters. This affects things like Entangling Force I think. However I would have expected this to end up as a 10% reduction in damage, not 13.5%. The ShardSplosion is equally confusing - it ought to be more damage than that.

  
  Aye, like I said this is why people say ArP is glitchy for CW's. It returns no kind of consistant return. It's not like a GWF, where you can expect it to directly transfer into increased damage on most abilities.
  

  The server is down at the moment for some reason, so I can't try it again and see if the numbers repeat. If anyone can cast any light on it I'd be interested to know what you think is going on here. Thanks for the catch SpaceJew

  
  No worries, I was confused myself but as far as I know it's been like this forever. It's one reason I completely spec'ced out of ArP. Not to say ArP is bad, it's actually quite good in fact, but it's glitchy and utterly depends on your rotation if you're getting a return on investment.
  
  This is also why I almost always suggest statistical evaluation of a given ability though an ACT parse. The combat log is a royal pain in the butt to go through and do all the math manually for each instance. Ugh. Headaches.

  MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC

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• drscone Member Posts: 309 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  spacejew wrote: »

  
  Aye, like I said this is why people say ArP is glitchy for CW's. It returns no kind of consistant return. It's not like a GWF, where you can expect it to directly transfer into increased damage on most abilities.

  
  Since the servers are STILL down and I'm bored I'm going to put my money where my mouth is (well, metaphorically anyway) and stand by my original post. I'm sure that the effect that ArP gives CW powers is consistent and it's the effects of other powers that need to be teased out. So things like Icy Rays and Ice Knife are dead easy to asses - they always always get a 20% debuff on mobs with 20% defence.
  
  If you run with a group there are loads of different debuffs that sometimes proc and sometimes don't, so it really is hard to see what's going on. Hence the one on one analysis. So my bet is that the results from EF and Shard will be the same.
  
  ofc, then I just need to figure out why they are what they are Tx for the grilling tho. That'll teach me to post my raw data.

  Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW

  Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?

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• ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  You could set up an Ioun stone so it only had ArP runes it in. Do some tests running your rotation on the same type of mobs, then take a look at the ACT data. Then summon your store, account for the increase in ArP and do the same tests. The other stats on the stone should be statistically insignificant, or at least enough to give a clearer indication of the effects of ArP.
  
  At least, that's a method I think might work.

  "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
  

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• drscone Member Posts: 309 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  ironzerg79 wrote: »

  You could set up an Ioun stone so it only had ArP runes it in. Do some tests running your rotation on the same type of mobs, then take a look at the ACT data. Then summon your store, account for the increase in ArP and do the same tests. The other stats on the stone should be statistically insignificant, or at least enough to give a clearer indication of the effects of ArP.
  
  At least, that's a method I think might work.

  
  You're overcomplicating it. Testing ArP is not like trying to figure out which spells Evocation works with, or whether taking Nightmare Wizardry is better than Transcended Master. It either works for a particular spell or it doesn't. If I strip out as much ArP as I can I reduce it to 250, which bypasses less than 1% of an opponents defence. When I do that, there is no change to the damage done by spells which don't work with it like Entangling Force. Spells which do work with it see a dramatic drop in their damage compared to when I'm at >2400 ArP.
  
  Some spells like Shard and Entangling force seem to have a 1 or 2 % discrepancy in their expected damage that I can't explain. I expect I ought to go to the Preview Shard and respec, dump all feats and the run some tests. However it is very clear which spells do benefit and which do not. Spells like Ice Knife are crippled at the moment and though I'm not saying that anyone should respec to remove them, or stop using in PvP or vs bosses, it does make sense to be aware the situation.

  Tele Savalas, Dwarf Thaumaturge CW

  Putting the Buff into Debuff since 2013 \o/ (Does that even make sense)?

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• lymphan Member Posts: 6 Arc User

  March 2014 edited March 2014

  drscone wrote: »

  The following powers do NOT benefit
  
  Conduit of Ice
  Entangling Force
  Ice Knife
  Icy Rays
  Repel
  Ray of Enfeeblement

  
  

  We are aware that ArPen not working on many DoTs feels really bad, and are investigating solutions to this problem.

  
  
  Don't know either Ice Knife is a dot or they have more bugs that they're aware of.
  
  
  Btw what to expect in the future for CW:
  
  

  To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
  
  With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see.

  
  
  Will I be able to solo epics like rogues? Yes, Please! /sarcasm

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