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Feedback on the Recent GF buff from an endgame GF
alcibaides415bc
Member Posts: 61 Arc User
Despite the buffs for GFs in the latest pvp patch, GFs are still undesired in end game dungeons compared to GWFs, CWs, even HRs. Fact is, GFs do far too little DPS to even hold aggro against very skilled CWs or GWFs, especially a very well built and skilled CW that can tank damage while providing incredible control and damage. My CW alt "Fear" was built to tank t2 dungeons. With a champion mage set and the Hrimnir set (barely 12k GS) while having 1.2k Lifesteal, i could tank almost any encounter and hold almost complete aggro while consistently topping paingiver. "Fear" was so much better than my GF "Murica" in almost every way, from tankiness to dps to control, that i have come to the conclusion that GFs are completely Irrevelant compared to CWs in their role of dicating an encounter's tempo and controlling adds. This is because even with enhanced mark AND trample the fallen, GF's threat generation cannot compare to insane DPS a CW or GWF is capable of.
A GF must be able to pull adds from teammates that are being assaulted, no matter the DPS they have. As of right now, GFs only matter as long as the GF is more skilled in their class compared to their team. If one team member is equally or greater skilled than a GF, and if this person is an HR, GWF, or CW, these persons can easily hold and tank aggro for the party and that GF will always struggle with threat generation because of the poor dps GFs produce. As long as GF dps is this bad, and without a change in class mechanics, this problem will continue to persist.
A quick solution to this problem would be a 10% increase in base weapon damage for all GF weapons. Fears of GF being overpowered in PVP if GF damage is buffed is overblown now that tenacity is here. With tenacity, Conq GFs can no longer chain prone and spike damage enemies to death, so burst damage is no longer a viable tactic. A buff in weapon damage for GF would be heavily mitigated by tenacity and would not drastically change the PVP capability of the GF.
But for PvE, a 10% buff in weapon damage is a HUGE increase in threat generation for a GF. With trample the fallen and enhanced mark, with the tactician feat that factors in weapon damage for trample, GF threat generation would finally overcome the threat generation of a greater skilled GWF, CW or HR. Yes, it would increase GF dps, but more importantly it would increase a GF's aggro management capabilities to the point where skilled players would WANT an equal skilled GF because of better dps and better control overall.
Without a large rework of the GF, a buff to GF weapon damage is the only viable solution to deal with this problem. Right now, equally skilled CWs or GWF out competes a GF in aggro, when it should be that an equally skilled GF enhances the smoothness of a dungeon run and should be the main focus of add attention.
A GF must be able to pull adds from teammates that are being assaulted, no matter the DPS they have. As of right now, GFs only matter as long as the GF is more skilled in their class compared to their team. If one team member is equally or greater skilled than a GF, and if this person is an HR, GWF, or CW, these persons can easily hold and tank aggro for the party and that GF will always struggle with threat generation because of the poor dps GFs produce. As long as GF dps is this bad, and without a change in class mechanics, this problem will continue to persist.
A quick solution to this problem would be a 10% increase in base weapon damage for all GF weapons. Fears of GF being overpowered in PVP if GF damage is buffed is overblown now that tenacity is here. With tenacity, Conq GFs can no longer chain prone and spike damage enemies to death, so burst damage is no longer a viable tactic. A buff in weapon damage for GF would be heavily mitigated by tenacity and would not drastically change the PVP capability of the GF.
But for PvE, a 10% buff in weapon damage is a HUGE increase in threat generation for a GF. With trample the fallen and enhanced mark, with the tactician feat that factors in weapon damage for trample, GF threat generation would finally overcome the threat generation of a greater skilled GWF, CW or HR. Yes, it would increase GF dps, but more importantly it would increase a GF's aggro management capabilities to the point where skilled players would WANT an equal skilled GF because of better dps and better control overall.
Without a large rework of the GF, a buff to GF weapon damage is the only viable solution to deal with this problem. Right now, equally skilled CWs or GWF out competes a GF in aggro, when it should be that an equally skilled GF enhances the smoothness of a dungeon run and should be the main focus of add attention.
Post edited by alcibaides415bc on
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The fact that CW's have such large target caps, mobs move much more slowly, are grouped nice and tight, debuffed up the wazoo and simply die faster even IF a GF had an extra 10% on weapon damage pretty much dictates who will still be chosen much more often. They need less mobs but much more dangerous and high hp so CW burst does not near one shot. CC resistant, fast moving, big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hulk smashing mobs that will blow the skirts right off a CW if things go wrong. Things a GF/GWF(GWF's Wild dps + tank is another convo all together) spec'ed for it can really grab a hold of and tank like a boss. I dunno, not sure how they will balance these things but certainly CW have been winning the PvE lotto for about a year now and GF's, previously GWF, TR all are feeling the crunch.
PS: CW need to have the fear of god put into them if they grab agro. Like, you know, every other MMO in existence lol.
the buffs have improved the speed at which a gf can do damage the powers need at least a slight increase added to this 10% wep damage you are proposing for it to even matter and my tank and my friends tank dont really have trouble with grabbing aggro off of someone.
and really if in a boss battle situation the other players should be attacking the boss while the gf gives the adds the runaround not attacking the adds and if not then the gf is great at holding enemies in a spot where the cws and gwfs can smite pretty much freely especially if they are stuck on a ground based aoe or the mof's fire attacks.
I think the GF's aggro powers should all be waaaay upped in magnitude. The Tank concept is basically that of a melee CC character, far more than it's of a meatshield. At the moment, this game doesn't really have any real CC, neither from CWs nor from GFs.
Which is odd, considering that Cryptic made one of the greatest CC archetypes ever in any game, with the Controller in CoH. A fully maxed-out high level Controller could lock down a whole room for a few crucial seconds. Terrible damage, but absolutely awe-inspiring crowd control.
Basically, a Tank should be precise positioning CC, a CW should be slow/stun/freeze/etc CC.
gf should be able to replace cw so we should be able to finish game on easy mode with gf in team like we can with cw now when they make this gf will be balanced and wanted
Eh? Not sure how that's supposed to be a response to my post which you quoted.
Not enough control is largely a playable choice. If you use all nuke spell, this will certainly happen.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I have a theory warpet hates cw. I will find him on server sometime.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
For PVE: Retire. It's not even that GFs are THAT bad, but changing the publics opinion is hard to impossible right now unless they somehow buff the GF to opness.
1) the elite mobs and bosses cannot one shot the majority of classes.
2) GF has no hard taunt mechanic that will grab and hold aggro for a set period of time regardless of dps.
The fact that most classes can approach a defense close to what a gf can achieve (without as much a sacrifice as a gf would need ot have offensive stats on par with other classes) and the range of hitpoints achievable by all classes falls to close. In other games i have tanked in, my tank easily had 2x the hitpoints of the squishy classes and most end game content would come down to the tank... if the tank died, then the party wiped because the boss or elites would one or two shot everyone else. While some may feel this would be bad, I think this is why GF or a tank is not needed.
In other games, tanks have a hard taunt skill or ability that allows them to grab and hold Aggro. GF has skills that almost do this, but as the op points out, most classes in the hands of skilled player will pull the aggro with no hope to get it back. In other games, dps could still pull the aggro, but with a hard taunt mechanic, the Tank could get it back and do their job.
I have resigned my GF to running with lower end parties because he can help with survivability (i think - guess sos and steel def is not working again), but i love to play a tank. I came to this love because they are normally necessary and in other mmos a properly played tank meant the difference between a very smooth run and a choppy, resource intense run or even a wipe.
GWF owns GF in almost everyway possible.
But if they continue with the idea (I don't blame them since that's what D&D is about, play what you want just have fun) at least give GFs some damage so they can be on par with the other classes. I've said this a long time ago, they have a slow attacking speed, it's logical to give them higher damage per hit. Just forget about the "ultra mega defensive knight with a tower shield" concept. In this game they are not that way and such a character is not required. Sure, for PVP you can be that, but in PVE it's not required. Give the guys some damage and solve the problem.
I dont understand why they insist with tanking buffs if tanking isnt required.
I agree we have low aggro generation. But the problem isn't with the DPS. It's the god dang hit cap on enforce threat, and the poor guard meter. When a mob is marked, it will stay marked until it attacks the GF. Well if enforced threat can ONLY mark 8 mobs at a time, with a 11s cooldown that's poor aggro management lol. If they increase the enforced threat radius, and remove the hit cap that would GREATLY increase our DPS in dungeons without effecting PvP because no one uses Enforced Threat in PvP anyways lol.
Also, for god's sake, make enduring warrior do something else! It's completely useless. Increase the heal or something. End game dungeon mobs take way too long to kill. If you score 100 kills in a dungeon and you have 30,000 hitpoints, then you're getting 90,000 health through the whole dungeon. What does a cleric heal? Like 1 million?! Hell what does a GF heal with Fighter's Recovery? If you keep spamming it to help tank mobs, we're talking at least 200,000 and probably much more.
I still like my guardian fighter, but I see so many different possibilities for improvements, even minor ones.
But the buffs we got were definitely a step in the right direction. Another 2 steps outa do it.
Did the devs really said that?
That's pretty dumb IMO. There are already the known issues with class desirability for PvE. Why would you want to make it so the game is playable in every format? Players will always choose the FOTM class and stack it for increased efficiency.
Overall, extremely bad idea.
Tanks and heals need to be made required in a dungeon party. No tank, party dies, no heals, party dies, simple, everything solved, now each party needs GF and DC. And we need to extend this to physical DPS too, so HRs, GWFs and TRs are also required.
GF can easily be amazing in PvP in the hands of the right player, but in PvE they don't bring a lot. It's just a dumb situation that is lasting for months and if what you say is true, there's no resolution in sight.
Welcome to CW&GWF online... gg.
I play a 14.8k protector GF. The only good aggro skill we have is aggravating strike. When using it, after 2-3 hits I can get and keep aggro even vs some very high dps.
The aoe taunt enforced threat usually doesnt taunt if CWs are dpsing and CCing ads.
The problem I see playing as tank now is that I do about half the dps of an average wizard, while the damage bosses do is not that great for me to be necessary in order to tank them. So unless the teammates are low geared or kiting is needed, a GF is really sub optimal in any group.
Solution?
Increase the damage mobs do by 2 or 3 times and boost GF's defensive abilities and HP, so that it is the only class able to tank that damage. DPS players should wait for the GF to take aggro before they attack, or they would risk dying if they get aggro.
Enforced threat's aggro should be increased, so that it guarantees the mobs start attacking us.
Doing lower damage as a tank is acceptable, as long as we are essential for the group's survival.
Our guard meter is still a joke, it's trash and useless in most situations. We are still inferior to GWFs and Perma TR + biletorn/flurry own the **** out of us.
The stats on Preserver's Grim/Profound gears are good but the complete set bonus is more than horrible, 25% more guard meter that get deplected within 2-3 seconds, very useful.
Also we are the only class with an useless tab in PvP. All I can say from a guy who PvP since the beta is this patch has changed nothing but more useless grinding.
IMO the reason why you see so many"bad GFs" is because in order to do their job, GFs actually have to be MORE skilled than their team and running an optimal build in order to even hold aggro. This should not be the case, a GF with a lower GS or skill level should be able to contribute, which at the moment they do not.
amen to this ^^^^^
HAHAHHA NO OFFENSE BUT TENACITY HAS ALLOWED MY GF TO GO FULL OFFENSE ...3000 ARMPEN + GPF/PVORPAL AND FINALLY I COULD START KILLING GWF:cool:
When are they going to fix those respawn bugs anyway? It's been long enough....