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CW's Role in ToS
gosuchang
Member Posts: 19 Arc User
Hi all,
I've been running ToS lately to hunt for my T2 chest, and almost every time, the runs are smooth-sailing right up to the final boss, where we then come to a complete stop and wipe several times. There are runs where we can safely complete, and there are runs where we just wipe in 30 seconds.
I don't quite understand what is the defining factor between the successful ones and the non-successful ones, but one thing I know is that for the successful runs, the blademasters don't pester me much, whereas for the instagibbed ones, the blademasters pretty much all come for me from the get go.
So, i have several questions and hope you guys can enlighten me:
1. How do i get blademasters off my back, or even get them to ignore me right from the start?
2. Should I switch to single target skills only? I'm usually topping paingiver in most runs, and i suspect the aoe is aggroing all the blademasters.
3. Should I sing/OF or icestorm during the boss' healing?
4. What is the general strategy for this boss? Ignore adds and zerg the boss with single target skills and force her to heal (thereby killing the adds)? Or sing all adds onto boss and aoe everything down (but tough to stay alive as the blademasters will get me if they don't die fast enough)
Hope i can get some advice, whether you are 10k GS or 20K GS. Different strategy for different gear/skill levels are appreciated.
Thanks for reading
I've been running ToS lately to hunt for my T2 chest, and almost every time, the runs are smooth-sailing right up to the final boss, where we then come to a complete stop and wipe several times. There are runs where we can safely complete, and there are runs where we just wipe in 30 seconds.
I don't quite understand what is the defining factor between the successful ones and the non-successful ones, but one thing I know is that for the successful runs, the blademasters don't pester me much, whereas for the instagibbed ones, the blademasters pretty much all come for me from the get go.
So, i have several questions and hope you guys can enlighten me:
1. How do i get blademasters off my back, or even get them to ignore me right from the start?
2. Should I switch to single target skills only? I'm usually topping paingiver in most runs, and i suspect the aoe is aggroing all the blademasters.
3. Should I sing/OF or icestorm during the boss' healing?
4. What is the general strategy for this boss? Ignore adds and zerg the boss with single target skills and force her to heal (thereby killing the adds)? Or sing all adds onto boss and aoe everything down (but tough to stay alive as the blademasters will get me if they don't die fast enough)
Hope i can get some advice, whether you are 10k GS or 20K GS. Different strategy for different gear/skill levels are appreciated.
Thanks for reading
Post edited by gosuchang on
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Realistically single target is a bad move because slowing down the mobs before she starts eating them if you can't outright kill them is important. You want all the aoe to be focused on her so push shard through the boss.
As for general strategy people usually go left on the way in without aggroing her and go clockwise round the room killing the starting mobs. Then everyone piles on the boss. If staying standing is a real issue don't follow her until the blue circle is down so the cleric can have a fresh one up when you arrive.
Pardon me, but when do the mobs explode? After they get eaten? And which mob explodes too? Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics of this fight to be honest.
I understand that she casts web on the floor and another circle type of attack which hurts like hell and knocks back. And then blademasters start coming for me and chain cc till i die.
Usually for some of the runs, i'm the only person dead, while the rest of the party continues without me and finishes, thereby carrying me. I can be the only CW in the party, or there may be another CW. I'm really feeling that I am aggro-ing the blademasters too much.
As for the spiders, i never felt that they were a problem. We go straight for the boss and aoe the spiders out of the way pretty quickly. It's always the blademasters that gets me. 3 or 4 of them chain-ccing is always the cause of my deaths.
In addition: I ran with a GF yesterday 17k GS, and she died pretty quickly as well during the start of the fight. Is it due to the aggro again? Or are we just plain bad at this?
Thanks for helping me out here. Love to hear your responses.
The key is to do as much AOE damage on and around the boss as you can, thus hurting her AND the adds, which reduces the health she can steal.
Use singularity to pull everything on top of her. Shard, Steal Time, CoI and Sudden Storm are your friends here. If everything is already on top of her, use Oppressive Force to daze everything and do massive damage as well.
Stay out of the webs, as they'll slow you and I believe you take more damage if you get hit standing in them. Range down the little spitting spiders if you don't have a singularity up to pull them in, and stay behind the boss as much as you can.
Don't rely on your DC to keep you up all the time. Stack some lifesteal as well as drink potions when you can.
Are you seeking to devalue chest pieces even more? Giving them actual correct advice... how could you?
If your team don't have enough dps it would mean your frontline would fail to grab aggro of the new spawn adds and also would not be able to burn down the boss.
Healer is not important in here if aggro has been properly maintain all DC do is just heal heal heal and dodge the occasion red from boss.
Singularity is amazing if your group is good, otherwise push method is good as well if your GF know how to grab aggro.
Overall a actually challenging fight for most new/mediocre players. I would say don't brother if you are new and can't find a decent group, cause you will fail in general.
I usually slot IR (mastery), SS and RoE. Some choose to put RoE on mastery, in that case CS is better than IR.
I use RoE on Tab, Shard when there are roughly 5 blademasters near the boss, Icy Terrain on the boss constantly, and Steal Time just as Blademasters are standing up from Shard. Toss in OF just as Steal Time is wearing off or on large spawns. Rinse/wash/repeat.
Oh, one last thing, it is vitally important that heavy armor/high HP people be between the Boss and the chest, and squishy people like CW and DC between the boss and the door. The boss must be faced away from DPS as her cone attack is narsty and blademasters will autoaggro to whomever is closest to the chest most of the time.
If you find yourself closest to the chest on a CW when blademasters spawn congrats, you are now a dead wizard.
Oh, and I almost forgot, Oppressive Force timed just before the add's explode will knock the add's far enough away from the boss to save team mates from needing to dodge/move. Mostly. It's a chaotic fight sometimes, especially the last little bit if you're burning slowly.
If everything is already on the boss and your daily is up, use Oppressive Force.
Use Steal Time strategically. That is how you defend yourself against the blademsters. Don't just use Steal Time automatically when it is up, use it when you see new blademasters coming. Hurl Shards into the boss/blademaster mess when you can, first to damage them, but mainly because it prones them.
Move continually. Don't stand in one spot. You always have to move around to avoid blademasters, and to avoid the red web circles, and to avoid the exploding adds.
Make yourself as tanky as possible. Have a spare set of defensive jewelry, that give HP/defense/deflect, with defensive slots enchanted with Radiants. Get yourself to 27k-28k HP minimum. The role for the CW in this fight is not to deal super-high DPS, but to stay alive, debuff the boss where you can, and to toss adds onto the boss. But staying alive is most important.
Try to circle around the room at the beginning of fight killing only the spiders without aggroing the boss. This is hard, it is really easy to aggro the boss accidentally, so if that happens, just start right in and attack the boss and throw the spiders and the blademasters onto the boss.
This is a challenging fight, don't be discouraged if it takes you many times.
Like pointman said, probably i should time my ST better. I'm using CoI, ST, SS and Shard, and OF and Sing.
And I should get more survivability. Getting my last DR boon tonight, hopefully rampaging madness will a little here.
I'm not discouraged, i'm just confused
There are just fights the blademasters don't chase me (and it goes really smooth, just dps the boss until she dies) and there are fights where they come for me from the get go (and i die before phase 2, but the team still finishes). Is it really about the positioning between the chest/door? If so, i'll keep that in mind.
Thanks for the inputs, it's good to see so many different strategies for beating the same boss.
Hope to hear more experiences, especially from those lesser geared ones.
Personally I think SS could be replaced with RoE on tab and CoI in a regular encounter slot. AoE damage seems mostly moot in that fight unless you really do have enough damage to simply burn everything on the boss without the heal going off at all. I.E. not most groups you'll find while pugging the dungeon. Really it probably doesn't matter as long as you have Shard and Steal Time. ToS makes the CW actually concentrate on CC unless you're overgearing it.
Having the GWF/GF on the chest side of the boss and you being on the Door side of the boss is very important. Most groups fail because of that one detail, when everyone ends up being separated and one-shot by blade masters instead of staying with the boss. It is also very important for the GWF/GF to hold aggro and thus keep the bosses cone strike from knocking you out of the Cleric's circle. When that happens, any blademasters who are not locked down will likely charge you and finish you off instantly. 9/10 times when I die in ToS, it's because of those two details.
Hope it helps, there's a lot of really good tips in this thread from lots of folks.
Oh, and on Singularity, the reason I don't recommend it is because it doesn't actually stop the blademasters from CC/charging/attacking. Oppressive Force renders them completely dazed and harmless until your Steal Time/Shard is ready to be cycled again. Hopefully, you have enough recovery/AP gain to chain those abilities effectively.
(EDIT: charononus is 100% right, if everyone else is single-target you absolutely must keep them locked down 100% or it's your face on the line.)
It's your teammates.
The blademasters will rush in, see the advice other have given about positioning around the boss for squishies and tankier classes. Now after that happens you have two possibilities either the tankier teammates are single targeting the boss for max dps or they're doing aoe rotations. If they're single targeting you will end up with much more hate because most of your encounters are aoe. If however you have say a gwf, especially a IV Sent using say Wicked Strike, Not so Fast, and then say come and get it with trample the fallen slotted, they'll pull the blademasters to them, hit them with a slow from not so fast which then increases their damage for Wicked Strike and IBS. They're now pulling in a good amount of hate which keeps the blademasters off of you. Where as if they're using say Sure Strike, IBS, Restoring Strike etc, they may be doing more damage to the boss burning her down faster but it makes you have all the blademaster aggro and since you're squishy you go splat easier. This example uses GWF as an example just because they're so popular right now, but it could apply to any class as when the aggro in that tight group is split up a bit more it becomes much easier for you to live thru as a cw.
I hope this helps so that the next time you die quickly and wipe you can maybe coordinate with the rest of the team a bit better to stay alive better.
Anyways I'd put money on that being the big difference.
This is complete overkill. Overkill can be fun but lets not act like it's required.
Over-gearing content isn't a strategy.
but it works
1. Use right skill setup. Most of the times i used this one: RoE on Tab, CoI, SotEA, Steal Time. Dont draws too much aggro on you and provides good debuffs for party (if you are using Thaum build). When i was using CoI on Tab i died so often... )
2. Be aware of your surroundings. For example, when blademasters appear u can hear: "I kill you" before they charging on you. When u hear it - prepare to dodge.
3. Use OF: that was described above in details why
4. Be careful at last phase, when Syndryth health drops lower than 25% many mobs appear: blademasters, spiders, etc
5. Dodge Syndryth cone and web attacks - u will be dead if u rooted )
6. Try to stay in Astral Shield all the time
7. If u team wipe in first phase of fight - clean adds first
BTW now i am using this skill setup: CoI on tab, IT, SotEA, Steal time. Passives - EotS, Chilling Presence. Dailies - only OF
Advice for team: Hug the boss. There is a lots of love in this fight. Always stick to her and gather adds near. Everyone should use AoE skill setup if possible.
Riiiight and leave the cleric with all mobs chasing him and stunlocking him to death. CWs have an awesome ability, it's called teleport. This + the insane amount of control they can dump within 1s makes not using aoe spells stupid and make you look pretty bad as a CW. Of course you do aoe. A lot of it. The more aoe you do the more controlled mobs will be. And the less you die.
If you die during the first 30s it means you didn't time your oppressive force/ice storm well. Just drop it when the cleric's circle is down, the boss should start draining her adds soon after, unless you're in a no dps party. All you need is a standard aoe rotation, CoI(mastery)/shard/steal time/whatever (ray of enfeeblement or icy terrain depending on the team). Oppressive force (many mobs) and ice storm (few adds) are both excellent daily spells in there.
NEVER ever pack **** at the top of the boss, it will kill your team, unless they're good enough to clean your mess. Always spread mobs as much as you can, it will help not to have overlapping red explosion areas when the queen drains her adds.
You don't want them piled on the boss, but spreading them everywhere at the wrong time will definately kill you without a high AoE DPS group.
Yea the no dps party seems to happen quite often. I'm often paingiver in my party (with only 12k GS), so that should pretty much speak for the amount of dps in the parties I'm in as well.
I've heard the ice storm suggestion before as well, for knocking everything away. I guess it's really a matter of timing the dailies and ST. I'm pretty much a button masher most of the time : \
Good suggestions thus far, I haven't got the chance to run ToS lately, so i'm unable to practice these strategies. Keep them coming though, it's interesting to see everybody's perspective on running the same annoying boss.
I don't quite understand what is the defining factor between the successful ones and the non-successful ones"
The biggest problem I see in ToS is the other party members which result in the 30 second wipes.
At the beginning of the fight a bunch of blade masters come out at once. At the same time the spider chick is teleporting all over the room. So what typically happens is the 5(?) blade masters come in, the CW(s) AOE and get agro, spider chick teleports, everybody runs to the spider chick, CW's die. As a CW you are screwed no matter what you do here. You can stay and fight the blade master but the healer left, good luck with that. Or you can teleport over with the group and have 5 blade master do their ranged stun you, hit you for 1/2 your health move and you die anyhow.
So the key here is to beat some sense into the other players in your group. When that wave comes out everybody needs to focus them down and ignore the spider chick.
Before the boss, the tank tell to go full on the boss/single-target. And both time, it work wonderfully.
I go for RoE on tab, CoI/CS/Shard with Singularity+Ice Knife. I'm a MoF thaum so I used CC as At-Will.
1- The tank did his job and we get nearly no add problem. I was behind the boss without a lot of red mark to dodge most of the time. Full combat advantage on the both is just wonderful.
2- As add come regularly, you can keep a good up-time on CC buff and CoI is de-buffing them so they don't last long enough.
3- I keep Shard for finishing add quickly.
4- I use Singularity after boss change form and add pop everywhere, and after the boss's death to finish quickly remaining add.
If the tank do his job, this fight is a tank and spank.
It was a so-called "no-dps" party again, as i was paingiver with my 12k gs. Party consists of me, 2 gwf, gf and dc.
The fight was very smooth this time, and i stuck to the following strategy:
1. Avoid the reds (duh)
2. Position myself such that the boss is between me and the chest.
3. Saved my ST and OF for whenever i get hit my a stray blademaster.
4. Spammed my aoes.
Surprisingly, the blademasters did not come for me much this time, and i didn't fall even once. Neither did my soulforge trigger at all. I didn't have an aggro problem as well, even though i was blasting my AOEs away.
I think #2 helped a big deal, as long as i don't get chained by blademasters i'm fine.
Kudos to the tips from everyone here.
A good post took me about 20 goes to finally beat her now I can do the whole dungeon with a good party in 12 mins even a 4 man party with 3 cw's isn't a problem if u have dps. With vorp shards at an all time low there should be no good reason why at least 3 members of your party don't have lesser vorp or greater.
If you are running 3 cw's have 1 sing on boss when adds are around and 2 use oppressive force if u can get OF to pop when sing does you can get massive damage. Use Shard to smash adds on boss. In fact about 80% of all boss fights in NW can be played this way
A very good point about HP I have 26K and hardly ever die in Spider these days with full HV gear.
I have played CW, GF, DC in spider. But I'll answer as a CW, which is also my main.
We've beaten it even when I was still a 9k-10k gs CW, alone, with another CW, or with 2 other CW. When I had low gs and lower damage output, and perhaps the team was weaker too with 9k-11k gs.
Low GS/low survivability and/or damage:
---I remember we always used to clear the mobs(spiders) around the boss first before aggroing and focusing on boss
---If we have a tank, and I'm a lone CW, I focus on control with dps -I use Icy terrain (also stops the BMs charge), steal time, shard/shield and tab RoE. Control and dps 'til the boss eats them and I shield the mobs away before they explode or ice storm them away (they won't explode on you and you also hit the boss; also don't shield away too early or they will charge and hurt like heck). I use the control spells so as to help the tank not die too. Getting us time while we slowly dps the boss (the entire team is not to strong --- but it works).
---If we have a lot of DPS in the team, then pure dps and dps race. Even at low gs, you can hurt the boss fast that she'd eat her mobs fast and they won't have a chance to hurt the team. If there's no tank, I'll use AOE control spells that also dps like shard, steal time. Shield/Ice storm for pushing them away as they explode. If I use shield bump to push them away, I just use OF to hurt mobs and boss.
If there is a tank, I use IR on tab (if there's already another CW that tabs RoE). Encounters: chillstrike, RoE, and shield to push. I use shield a lot when I had low gs to help me stay alive in case the mobs get to hit(dps not as fast) or the tank doesn't aggro all.
If there are also more than 1 cw, the other cw can focus on saving us using his/her daily like OF (stun) or Singing the mobs if the boss hasn't started eating 'em yet.
With higher damage/gs/better survivability:
---We don't clear the spiders any more and just go straight to boss. These runs are usually with the same people so we are already synchronized.
---I will answer as how I built my CW (more PVP-oriented build, but works great in PVE too). At this stage, my single target damage is very high if I want to focus on damaging the boss, and there's a tank. If we are all dps classes even the tank focuses on boss and just try to generate threat so mobs go to him, I'd use single target spells because I will surely steal aggro from tank if I aoe. This fight would be so fast though.
1) if i'm the lone CW, I'd tab RoE. 2) If there's another cw with tabbed RoE, I'd tab shard or IR. Encounter: chillstrike, icy terrain if needed, RoE, entangle (idk i just like using it for single target to generate faster AP). And OF or IK for daily. I usually just use OF though.
---If there's no tank for the mobs, I'll use AOE spells. Again these combinations of spells depend on the team composition or how they play. Sometimes I'd tab RoE or Tab CoI.
1) I'm lone CW: If I have to tank and burn and control, I use SS on tab, Encounter: steal time, icy terrain, and shard. I sing to gather them all (and save me from getting charged) on the boss, I SS as they drop, Icy to stop charging, steal time, and shard to control them or kill them. Or sometimes I use a different rotation but basically that's it. They get to die fast lol.
2) If there's another CW, and she sings (because almost every CW now sings lol), I'll tab CoI, encounter: Steal time, SS, and shard. OF as my daily. If the other CW uses icy terrain, I'll tab SS, encounter: steal time, CoI, and shard. Or sometimes instead of steal I just use RoE. So in short, sometimes I tab, SS, RoE, CoI. Depending on what the other CWs are using and doing. But I always daily using OF/OP/Oppressive Force.
oh and if there's a tank I still basically use these spells except I use RoE instead of SS.
We don't even push the mobs by this time because we already just avoid the red or have DC sunburst them away as they explode. Sometimes GF just frontline them away.
Hmm maybe I forget some things, but basically that's what I do. I hope it helps and I apologize for my English, it's not my native tongue. I hope I'm understandable nevertheless.