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Separate queue for pug and premade pvp
loboguild
Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
I think this one deserves its own thread because it has evolved as one of the major recommendations in the official threads.
One of the main issues (and reasons for leavers) with the current PVP system is that premades can be matched up against and effectively farm pugs. So before installing a leavers penalty that cures a symptom, you should dig deeper and solve one of the underlying problems. While the matchmaking system theoretically should prevent some of this, it can only do so much. Actually it has been stated that the matchmaking will try to match you up with equal competition, but if that fails you're matched up randomly again. Overall any premade will have a distinct advantage against a pug anyway, even with equal elo-ratings.
A separate queue brings two major advantages to pvp. First I think we all would like a public rating at some point for people to compete/brag/whatever. In its current implementation the elo-rating is completely unreliable because it is single player based and probably doesn't adjust for the situation you're in. Let's assume two players with equal skill and gear. If one is exclusively pugging while the other plays regularly within alliance-premades it will result in vastly different elo-ratings and this shouldn't happen. To make the system truly representative single players should be randomly matched up against each other.
Second, this would separate competitive PVP and glory farming. Glory shouldn't be awarded to premade PVPing, because it's only there for the competitive nature and prevents abusing. The premade PVP rating should be public and maybe even team-based. Parties could be automatically put into the premade queue while single players should be able to choose between pug and premade queues and if they choose the latter, they will be paired with another 4-player-premade once available.
This change to the queue makes for a better system and would justify a leaver penalty in both queues.
One of the main issues (and reasons for leavers) with the current PVP system is that premades can be matched up against and effectively farm pugs. So before installing a leavers penalty that cures a symptom, you should dig deeper and solve one of the underlying problems. While the matchmaking system theoretically should prevent some of this, it can only do so much. Actually it has been stated that the matchmaking will try to match you up with equal competition, but if that fails you're matched up randomly again. Overall any premade will have a distinct advantage against a pug anyway, even with equal elo-ratings.
A separate queue brings two major advantages to pvp. First I think we all would like a public rating at some point for people to compete/brag/whatever. In its current implementation the elo-rating is completely unreliable because it is single player based and probably doesn't adjust for the situation you're in. Let's assume two players with equal skill and gear. If one is exclusively pugging while the other plays regularly within alliance-premades it will result in vastly different elo-ratings and this shouldn't happen. To make the system truly representative single players should be randomly matched up against each other.
Second, this would separate competitive PVP and glory farming. Glory shouldn't be awarded to premade PVPing, because it's only there for the competitive nature and prevents abusing. The premade PVP rating should be public and maybe even team-based. Parties could be automatically put into the premade queue while single players should be able to choose between pug and premade queues and if they choose the latter, they will be paired with another 4-player-premade once available.
This change to the queue makes for a better system and would justify a leaver penalty in both queues.
Post edited by loboguild on
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This way if a premade faces pugs, it is most likely going to be pugs that are better geared/skilled. It also makes it easier to insure top level 5 man premades face each other instead of highly skilled/gear pugs, who would still be at a serious disadvantage. It allows players that like to solo qeue to actually solo qeue without fear of facing equal level premades. If they do face a premade, it would be of players with lower skill/gear score.
In this way, they wouldn't need to worry about having a separate qeue for premades and it accounts for partial premades.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Also I remind that the matchmaking system will still match up anybody if it is unable find equal competition and that remains unsolved.
I understand that it could still leave uneven matches, but that would be because not enough people are qeued in the first place. In this case, we can keep everyone in the same qeue and allow the system to sort it out.
I worry that separating the qeues would split players too much and it would still leave the issue of partial premades. A lot of the time, people qeue up with 2 to 3 people because for whatever reason they cannot get anyone else. Would the non-premade qeue exclude them? Or would it allow them that unfair advantage? Do we force them over to the premade qeue with 4 people? Then how do they get a 5th without any solo people qeued up? Not saying splitting isn't doable, but brings a lot of complications.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
When my guild and I queue up as a premade, we are not an uber PvP group out looking to destroy pugs, nor are we a competitive PvP group looking to make a name for ourselves. We're not coordinating tactics on voice chat, we're not fully geared, we're not even PvP specced. We're just friends who want to play together.
In short, we're no match for premade groups. We often get beat by pugs... who don't leave as soon as they see we're premade, that is.
When we queue up together, we just want to find an opposing team who has about the same level of skill and gear as us. A matchmaking system will provide that, but if we have to use a separate queue for premades only, the likelihood of there BEING another team comparable to us is slim to none. We don't belong in a special queue. We are pugs who have met before.
In short, I don't like any system that keeps me from playing the game with my friends, and this would do exactly that.
However, I think there should be a way for premades to directly challenge each other.
I think the advantages outweigh the complications. In the end it's a single player elo so only single players should compete against each other. You grind for glory for personal use so you shouldn't have help from others.
if u think matchmakeing will solve anything u are very wrong in every mmo i played ppl very easy avoided strong enemies with it and abuse system to get easy wins against weak let me explain how this happen in one mmo i played u had ppl with op gear who "wanted to help weak" ppl to win so they played with weak but they would be stamped by other teams because system was looking at the person with the highest score so they would end up agains ppl of their gear and skill so they came to forum to complain about on forums after this devs changed system to look on weakest one and then exploiting and easy wins came after this u had full op teams with just 1 low score player so they can have easy wins
for example before this change top pvp had 2.3 score but after change they all rised to 2.8k+ or even some were on maximum 3k
Every game I have played with an elo matchmaking system hasn't ever taken gearscore into account , it works out rankings and who a player will fight based on past performance , this is why it is a difficult system to abuse if it is implemented properly , yes a very skilled player could get to a place where he could end up steamrolling much weaker players but the amount of ranking points he would lose getting to that point would make doing such a thing totally pointless plus in most pvp communities this kind of behavior is frowned upon , LoL uses a very robust elo matchmaking system and if the system could be easily exploited they wouldn't use it.
Matchmaking will find an equal team in the premade queue for you.
it worked like this in this game but they changed it score i give for example is their ranking as i said it looked score of the highest but they changed it to weakest or avarge and then easy wins came for op ppl since all of them start to abuse it and to have one low score guy in team
or have elo off set of +20% elo for each person premade to make it more likely u face premade/ people worth fighting this would be double elo rating for full premade group and just 40% for 2 people
plus the elo system and GAME ON!!!
Also dont break the DC.
Instanced PvP sucks balls.
In other words, everything will stay about the same as it is now lol.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Sorry. Open World PvP is simply another way of saying "massive griefing against unspecified random population of gamers".
What they should do is introduce PvP maps, and then progressively add in more PvP modes, and ultimately, implement regular large-scale scripted PvP event-modes.
Open World PvP died out ages, ago. People have changed since DAoC, or the early years of WoW. Any open world PvP content nowadays is simply a handful of people in BiS gear slaughtering newbies and casual players by the droves, and then calling that "PvP".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
if the matchmaking is based on a ranking, and the ranking is based on the number of games won mainly, and also on the overall gear (armor and weapon enchants included):
you go pug, you've equal chances to win or lose. The stronger-geared you are, the more you have a chance to win with your pug. You win more, your ranking raise up and you're matched up against people with a similar number of match won.
you go premade to win easy, your rankings rise fast, and you eventually end up matched up against people as strong as you, or pugs able to face your premade on equal.
you go premade with strong friends to farm glory/ rise your ranking, eventually you end up against very strong players and you'll be a burden to your strong team mates.
With this system, you can "cheat your ranking" till a certain point where you end up against high ranked players and you start winning less
Also, players who play more PvP (aka more experience) end up with more wins, and are matched up against people who play PvP as much and win as much. So you have a ranking that takes into account both your PvP experience (number of games played) and your PvP ability (number of games won).
Problem is, this kind of ranking requires time to reach an "Equilibrium". At the beginning, it would just be a mess where premades stomp pugs and would be just as it is now. But after a couple of weeks, imho, the situation would start to work fine.
To complete it, the system could be coupled with a "scramble" system.
Which means: if despite the matchmaking, a match end up uneven, the system resets all 3 cap points to neutral, teleports both teams to their spawn, takes the 2 best players of the winning team, and moves them in the losing team. The 2 worst players of the losing team are then moved to the winning team. This way, teams are balanced and the losing team can fight back and try to win.
For a match to be marked as uneven, the system looks at the score. If, before one of the 2 teams reaches 500 points (50% of the match), one team is winning by 150 points or more, the scramble system makes the changes. If the gap increases more, before the match hits the 75% mark (one of the teams reaches 750 points), the 3rd best player of the winning team (score) is moved to the losing team, and the 3rd worst player of the losing team is moved to the winning team.
Players scrambled from the winning team to the losing team, get a glory bonus. This way, if they end up losing after the scramble, they suffer a minimal glory loss.
Ranking system, to count your number of games won, takes into account the starting team. Which means, if you are scrambled to the losing team and lose, FOR THE RANKING it is counted as a win.
The scramble system only is used to balance uneven games "on the run" and make them more fun/ take away the "i quit cause i lose and can't get enough glory".
It is a bit vague, but i think it could work.
I see 3 solutions, all of which would work, but I think my take on it is more enlightened. Number 1, Completely separate the tank classes from the squishy classes. So put all the GWF, GF, and TR on one side, give them their own unique, uber long lasting PVP. Note that even though TRs aren't tanks they are invisible most of the time, therefore are very good at contesting points, avoiding, and catching tanks when they are weakest, so I think they would belong there. On the other side put all the CW, HR, and DC. This combined with the ELO matchmaking would make for balanced PVP in my opinion. It has some issues obviously but this is the simplest solution.
Number 2, completely restructure PVP. Instead of capping stupid flags, which favors the tanks. Make it more like slayer in Halo. Who wants to sit there are capture flags? I know I don't. That's why in Halo capture the flag isn't even close to the amount of people playing slayer. That being said, you could just make two forms of pvp. Capture the flag another based on which teams kills the most within a set amount of time or which team reaches 50 kills, some other arbitrary number. This would allow for a much more realistic version of PVP and would still allow all classes to mingle. For example, if the enemy team is winning and the other teams range goes up to troll the other team on one of the caps, the tank tries to go up and knock them off (if he feels he will lose the 1v1) but in a slayerlike competition they would be discouraged from doing that because this would waste time and would provide no improvement in their teams position IF the tank could even win. I feel this is the best option for Cryptic because all the tanky GWFs and GFs will still want to capture the flags because in slayer they will be getting killed more often. This could be paired with the solution offered here and separate pugs vs premades, but I find this would be a little redundant since pugs would fair much better this way.
Number 3, premade queue and regular queue. This would work but it would make a lot of immature parties unhappy since they would no longer get to run their godly OP teams of 3-GWF and 2-TR or, 3 GWF, 1 GF, 1 TR, etc. This would force them to fight similar team builds increasing their chances of losing. (Premades with builds like that are so confident they will win, this would dent their ego probably)
I think the devs know PVP isn't balanced but due to their tests, they realize any class can take any class 1v1 depending on the circumstances they don't see it as much of a problem. But capping points favors the tanks and TRs due to their annoying habits of taking insane amounts of damage or TRs simply running away after you give them a nice beating (this applies to tanks as well sometimes).
inb4 angry premades dislike my suggestions due to their ability to work, therefore ruining their childish fun of premade vs pug roflstomping
You win the award for making the best of the worst articulated points EVER. Like EVER. FFS periods are your friend, as is grammar, not even perfect grammar but any grammar at all. Congrats on the second language and everything but it doesn't really count if no ones knows what the **** your talking about. GG! :eek:
Jugger Conq GF
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They are........
Haha, Demi posted that couple monthes back before announcement. tee hee hee
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Really? Tell the 1.7 million people who shelled out thirty bucks just for the early ALPHA version of DayZ.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dayz-sells-1-7-million-copies-opens-another-studio-in-slovakia/1100-6418643/
Or the millions of people who play on open pvp minecraft servers. Nah, open world PVP is actually the very cutting edge when done right. And according to the way things look, that "right" way is perma-death.
Jugger Conq GF
....