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How to make CW's CONTROL again.
almireldignor
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
For a long time now, every time I do a dungeon on my CW, I'm always top damage, unless there's a better geared CW in the team. Now, if we had to sacrifice a lot of control to achieve this, that would be perfectly fine. But no. If anything, we have more control than ever before, despite target caps and massive damage abilities. It's absurd, and it needs to change. I understand a lot of these dungeons aren't easy without a ton of damage, but that's what we should be taking real "DPS" classes for.(GWF's and some rangers are the only really worthwhile dps'ers other than cw, but thats a whole other thread entirely) Instead we stack CW's, sometimes as many as 4 in one party. Ridiculous. Some people are able to go in with a balanced party and still win, but in every case, if the other members were replaced with equally geared CW's, it would be even easier. What we need to do is change things so that CONTROL Wizards can do CONTROL at the expense of damage, OR do damage at the expense of control. A few things we can do to get closer to that ideal are:
1: Double all current target caps (I know what you're thinking, OMG moar targets = moar dmg plz nerf. Bear with me)
2: Add a diminishing return effect to aoe abilities. For example, a sudden storm cast, max targets 10. Against 1 target, it would do the usual 12-30k depending on gear/debuffs whatever. However, for every target after the 2nd, it would do less damage against each, for perhaps 3-7.5k each.
3: Make each feat tree have a specific focus: Oppressor would extend control duration, and simultaneously reduce damage further, Thaum could be a balance of the two with debuffs added in, and renegade would reduce control duration but increase damage.
With these changes, a control wizard could choose to do the massive damage we already do, but not have any serious control, or be able to keep whole crowds of mobs locked down, but do relatively little damage.
1: Double all current target caps (I know what you're thinking, OMG moar targets = moar dmg plz nerf. Bear with me)
2: Add a diminishing return effect to aoe abilities. For example, a sudden storm cast, max targets 10. Against 1 target, it would do the usual 12-30k depending on gear/debuffs whatever. However, for every target after the 2nd, it would do less damage against each, for perhaps 3-7.5k each.
3: Make each feat tree have a specific focus: Oppressor would extend control duration, and simultaneously reduce damage further, Thaum could be a balance of the two with debuffs added in, and renegade would reduce control duration but increase damage.
With these changes, a control wizard could choose to do the massive damage we already do, but not have any serious control, or be able to keep whole crowds of mobs locked down, but do relatively little damage.
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damage is too intense for every cw spec which does lead to this stigma that cw> everyone else.
This wasnt so a while ago though.
this all just started since this last update.
But I think you can't balance paragon around control versus damage.
It's actually the case and it result in Oppressor being the PvP path and Thaum/Renegade fighting for being THE dps path.
I see 2 possibility :
1- give equivalent DPS buff/debuff and change the way they do control.
2- give equivalent control capability and change how they buff/debuff to increase target.
He second option is easier.
Oppressor need some damage bonus for PvE, especially in the last feat.
Thaum and Renegad could have a some better control feat.
I consider think like this, the 3 path could have a similar pattern :
Tier 1 : dps buff/AT-will buff
Tier 2 : gameplay dps buff through general power/paragon power
Tier 3 : control buff
Tier 4 : damage buff
Tier 5 : big buff/debuff that work for the group
This pattern is what we can see for Thaum/Renegade.
I also do not want to spend AD switching between two specs if there is no dualspec available. Perhaps if this would be introduced in a later expansion, then we could talk again about it. The three trees could be: pvp, pve-control, pve-damage.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
let go of damage but provide means such that your team mates can deal much more and have an easier life.
I'm against having path limited to a fixed role, like Oppressor for PvP only, Thaum for control and Renegade for max DPS.
Because it result in all CW being the same. It can lead to CW being taken in some dungeon because the group want a CW control and you're a CW max DPS.
At contrario, the 3 path need to be balanced around doing equivalent DPS and control, like actually between Renegade and Thaum.
In this case, path only add flavour and Gameplay option.
You prefer big Number, go for Renegade. Less spiky damage, g for Thaum.
But the questions are :
What about Oppressor in PvE ?
Chat about Thaum and Renegade in PvP ?
According to the 4E rules, which is the system Neverwinter is based on, here's the definition of a controller.
So doing a lot of AOE damage AND using CC powers is part of the Wizard's role. It's not one OR the other.
Part of the reason people struggle with this notion is that Neverwinter isn't dividing players into Tank, Healer, DPS roles. The roles are more loosely defined as Striker (High single target damage - TR), Defender (High survivability protectors - GF and GWF), Controller (CC and High AOE DPS - HR and CW) and Leaders (Healing and Buffing).
Of course, then people want to point to that silly scoreboard at the end of a dungeon, saying "this is how everyone is judged", when those are just numbers and isn't a good indicator of how well each class performed their role. If players would get away from thinking they must be at the top of the scoreboard, and focus instead of what their role in the party is, you'd have an easier time in dungeons, and you'd be clearing content.
Cryptic has no actual interest in upsetting the status quo when doing so will cause many people to start whining while now basically almost no one does.
They gain nothing from it. And I'm glad it's so. I like my CW as it is now, thank you.
In other MMOs pathing typically gives you 3 options depending on your class..
1. Full Party Class features, typically the path you always pick for raids/group DDs.
2. Hybrid Feature , allowing you to pick options to be a hybrid buff/debuffer/healer/tank
3. Full DPS mode, removing most of your most powerful X contributors to survival mode, allowing even healers to do decent DPS.
You then have hybrid classes, say off healers, even if you spec full heal mode, your not doing anything more then the small groups (depending on the MMOs, sometimes even small groups required full trinity to complete) or Off tanks, full tank spec didnt give you more then the chance to be a off tank, (champs, pallys war clerics ect depending on games) you specced that way to be the kiter in certain instances basically. All the other mmos Ive ever played still required some sort of the trinity version to complete..
In the other MMOs a GWF simply wouldnt have been a main tank and the other games wouldve made the bosses eat them alive.
It goes back to one item.. this game hinges around one class above all others, the CW, I dont blame the class, I blame the ecounter designs. Simply put, all the DDS have twice as much adds as they need and the bosses hit for less then they should. Fix that and you fix alot of whats wrong in this game.. Dont bother tweeking CW class, this fixes most game balance.. Unavoidable boss hits that require a true tank and healer sit up, would basically fix 80% of the pve world.
PVP thats another story.. the GWF design is so over the top its not funny, but then if you nerf them, that would just replace them with TRs being so over the top its not funny, at least now they can fight each other.
Its extremely sad they are nerfing DCs in pvp so much.. A middle of the pack class, being reduced to nothing! 90% incoming heals reduction plus stack able with other debuffs. Ive never seen any MMO kill off their healer class so harshly before. Ive never seen any other mmo "require" you to get a PVP set before either!
I just did the first GG from start to finish this morning to see if I could take doing it just to continue to play domination.. Im not sure I can.. what a waste of time.
The reason you top chart is because the scale in this game make most player unable to achieve high potential on their toon unless they know how. There are people out there playing GWF and beat 95% CW out there.
The ultimate reason you think CW doesn't actually control but do too much dmg the same time is because majority of the players are bad. Sad but true.
A quick break down on different classes:
HR: It does amazing dmg when play properly with a full PVE spec, but offer little to 0 control plus aggro problem, don't have one but assume it would take some effort to play it well in PVE. Still viable but I have only seen 1 good HR in PVE so far, the rest are either nub or PVP spec.
GF: Well this class is just so dumb atm. Ignore. Only chance it does dmg is to run full rank 10 radiant in order to actually be considered a optimal pick.
GWF: GOD, beat cws. If you are REALLY GOOD. other wise CW still beat you on dmg chart.
CW: oh well another PVE god.
DC: Heal bot.
TR: Class design make it excel at certain aspect, but can't be considered a good pick as efficiency goes no matter how good you are, there are just better pick, also due to the lack of AOE.
It is adding too much mechanics to feats and encounters, CW would be so bugged. And I don't think this playstyle would be enjoyable, i would barelly play CW anymore, would even delete it. Probably would focus only on my GWF, with spam of Come and Get it, 3 gwf don't need a Control Wizard after all. And for who likes dps, this CW is just worst thing could happen.
I don't get these posts of "fixing" things, so much of the same. What should change is the DUNGEON, i never thought it was so hard to understand, until i start seeing such things on forum constantly.
What makes CW so good is because the dungeon is "trash clearing" designed. And I never saw a game where the Wizard wasnt the best doing it, its absolutly so obvious when you start playing a game and you didn't read much about it: Want DPS? Play Wizard.
What you are trying to make will be like a DC without Heals, just to support team. Not a Role for Wizard in my opinion, maybe they should take off the "Wizard" and make it "Control Support". And make another character called just Wizard, that just do DPS, would be fair.
We need real fixes to dungeon mechanics, not posts of GF-main saying that they play CW and Top Dmg (same history every time). The only thing that makes CW so "OP" is singularity. If we had an artifact that could pull 15 enemies into the caster, with 1 min cooldown, its done. We can 5 HR dungeons, 5 GWF, 5 DC, 5 GF.
The answer to this isnt "Nerf sing to 5 targets plz i'm gf so i can aggro the other 10 and have a role into the dungeon hehhehehhehhehe"
If We have more immune to control monster that hits harder... Like totemist, he hits hard and is ranged, every cw knows what i am talking about. Done... We have a role to GF, of course, if they keep the aggro, what should be fixed of course. Adding lower monsters to dungeon and immune, would also be good for TR that shines on Single Target, they would shine, of course, since mostly has 2k power and 3k recovery, as they are Permastealth.
There's so much things that you guys should consider.
I'm so proud Dev team don't take mostly stuff into account.
The only way to make CW not requisited than it is on dungeons atm, is making him crappy. With no dmg, and running way far of what "Wizard" means on DnD.
What we would see in the game is: 4 GWF and 1 Opressor. Then you would create a post on the Barracs forum, saying that you're GWF and TOP dmg. And then, the same history.
That said, you can play CW differently. I feel like i have a buff/debuff controlling wiztank, whereas Cenom has huge burst DPS. That said, we did a few CNs together and they went awesome, and I think the two styles very complimentary.
I agree the problem is way too much trash and not enough like MC - i have a rant in other thread where i just couldn't take it anymore XD.
Right now i can't wait to log and hunt for my beetle
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Instead of decreasing the damage the CW does, Cryptic should increase the damage TR and GF does, as well as increase the single target damage of the HR.
Well there's two problems with this,
1. CW damage is not single target damage, even though we can do it, they're right, other strikers are much better at it. We tend to rack up an enormous amount of damage on crowds of mobs we can AoE. But if I had to go single target against a dedicated Striker, chances are he's going to beat me. Yeah I can hold my own and come close, but in equal gear, he's got the advantage.
2. CW damage tends to be a little erratic. You see this a lot in skirmishes. I can either end up at the top of the damage list, or on the bottom. All the good DD spells are not auto targeting. So when you're bearing down on a group and the crowd of mobs mysteriously parts like the Red Sea your boulder zings right past, and missed everything or you just lined up a Sudden Storm into a large crowd and it moves on you, you get nadda, zip for damage. This tends to happen to me a lot with a party chalk full of Rangers because they'll draw the agro and poof the crowd is gone right as you cast.
So I can tell you now, depending on the circumstances, I can either end up in the top of the damage charts, or nearly at the bottom.
We can do great damage, but not really consistently. I think the problem is a little overblown.
There's also a 3rd point to make.
3. In T2 Dungeons, the tactics and strategy for the main boss battles are completely wonky. I can do Crowd Control perfectly all the way up to the Boss, then suddenly, in order to win, I have to switch out and let the Tank do CC, while I end up doing single target damage on the Boss because the Mobs are too strong, and no matter how good I am my timers will not reset fast enough to allow me to keep the mobs off anyone for very long. They're just too tough. So what should be my normal job is a near impossibility on the main boss battles because shockingly our Control is not strong enough or rather does not last long enough.
So its really a catch 22 here, Our CC isn't strong enough to work in Main Boss Battles in the upper T2 Dungeons. And while we do top line damage from an AoE perspective, a single target dedicated striker is going to beat us on single targets even though we can do excellent damage ourselves.
It is no surprise that the current situation with a single class having the best control/debuffs and at least joint-best AOE damage has lead to it rendering almost every other class irrelevant and totally dominating PvE endgame.
...Spellplague is a knockfest (CC) while FH is a single target burnfest (ST debuff)...
I think part of the problem is that everyone's plan is to burn the boss down super fast then let themselves be killed by the ton of add's that spawn until they disappear into the ether. There's no reason to fight the add's, they disappear after the boss dies in pretty much every instance..
As for changes to "fix" CW's...
GO back to page one to read my sugestions.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?600491-How-to-Fix-Wizards&p=7195581&viewfull=1#post7195581
If you run Spellplague like you run FH you're doing it wrong. You can't knock literally everything off of a ledge into acid in FH. The only thing that is even kind of similar is the tank kiting, but I'll be honest I find that kiting isn't really necessary on SP if you're doing it well. It's more like dragging add's to their doom.
Actually that's normal though for a D&D wizard.
Two things have established the Wizard class in D&D all the way back to 1st edition. AoE damage and Crowd Control. All it tells me is that the Devs have established the Wizard accurately as a D&D class.
If they can't find a way to make ever class viable, if it boils down to everyone running a GWF or CW, what fun is it then?
It's easier if the 1 add person is a CW because it's easiest for them to pick mobs off the group, but the actual fastest way is to have all 5 on the boss and the CW(s) stay full aoe :P.
Although utterly out of place in an MMO when it renders half the other classes irrelevant because
which expresses the situation in a nutshell.
Right now overall in PvE:
CW > GWF > DC >> TR/HR/GF
There are hardly any situations where another CW isn't better or at least as good as taking another class (DC excepted and that only in less geared parties).
Then I'd say we need a better DM instead.
Because I can say the Devs nailed the D&D Wizard dead on with the Spellstorm and Fire Master Mage.
There's nothing wrong with the class balance here, its the dungeons.