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PVP is not broken .. for now
emadara
Member Posts: 6 Arc User
Presently the PVP system is an arguably fun, dynamic and fast paced experience. Please don't break it by introducing complex a stat like Tenacity which has an overall negative ripple effect on the gameplay and the macro economy.
All the present PVP system needs is a little tweaking and more content.
1. A ladder or ranking system
2. A smarter queue system
3. Diversity in game modes. CTF, deathmatch and more maps.
I say no to healing depressions, tenacity and whatever merry go round balancing that ensues.
That main point is that balancing either way in extremes is bad. Too much balance it make things redundant and gameplay is flat and boring, as with what is happening with Tenacity. Swing the other way, things get one shot and god mode characters ruin the experience(Live PVP right now).
The middle ground is the sweet spot or holy grail in which both PVP and PVE play styles, stats and gear can co exist. For example, gear needs will be different in both CTF, deathmatch and dominations. Play styles and strategies will adjust and counters to each build will formulate, this will lead to, diversity in the game, more consumer consumption of Zen and you'll prevent gear bloat.
The pace to which you can introduce PVE content modules to control player churn is too costly and unsustainable. The pace can be readily controlled by changing the mindset that the end game is more pve to pvp or pvp to pve but rather, end game needs both PVP and PVE.
Thus tweak the already good PVP system. If class balance is an issue, tweaking that should be priority, then rankings and smart queue systems.
Not Tenacity.
Please.
My 0.02 rant.
All the present PVP system needs is a little tweaking and more content.
1. A ladder or ranking system
2. A smarter queue system
3. Diversity in game modes. CTF, deathmatch and more maps.
I say no to healing depressions, tenacity and whatever merry go round balancing that ensues.
That main point is that balancing either way in extremes is bad. Too much balance it make things redundant and gameplay is flat and boring, as with what is happening with Tenacity. Swing the other way, things get one shot and god mode characters ruin the experience(Live PVP right now).
The middle ground is the sweet spot or holy grail in which both PVP and PVE play styles, stats and gear can co exist. For example, gear needs will be different in both CTF, deathmatch and dominations. Play styles and strategies will adjust and counters to each build will formulate, this will lead to, diversity in the game, more consumer consumption of Zen and you'll prevent gear bloat.
The pace to which you can introduce PVE content modules to control player churn is too costly and unsustainable. The pace can be readily controlled by changing the mindset that the end game is more pve to pvp or pvp to pve but rather, end game needs both PVP and PVE.
Thus tweak the already good PVP system. If class balance is an issue, tweaking that should be priority, then rankings and smart queue systems.
Not Tenacity.
Please.
My 0.02 rant.
Post edited by emadara on
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Comments
Whatever supposed benefit this Tenacity stat brings with it won't make up for all the negatives it presents. If this goes live, it will mean that only PVP gear will actually be viable in PVP. Which means build variety will be reduced drastically, since there is only one PVP gear set bonus. It will also mean that you will be required to have two different sets of gear for PVP and PVE, which is the last thing people want.
Furthermore, this pvp stat won't help to fix the main issues with pvp. Such as players with vastly disparate gear being matched against each other. Or premades being matched against pugs.
If there are any devs reading this, please...I implore you to reconsider this Tenacity idea. There are so many better solutions out there to fix pvp in my opinion. Severely limiting build spec variety and reducing our already limited storage...that's not the way to do it. It really isn't.
In it's current implementation Tenacity needs quite a bit of work to bring anything beneficial to high end pvp. Really the only thing it does for pvp is in the very lowest of gear brackets. It only complicates any further PvP additions.
But all in all, it really does not change much. It's not terrible nor great, and given how mediocre it is, I can't justify bringing it into the game as is. It simply doesn't do much.
The developer explained the reasoning behind Tenacity here and as Ranncore has already said they also said that Matchmaking has been in the works for a long time , his post is an interesting read here - http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?582751-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Tenacity-Feedback-Thread&p=7075441#post7075441
Matter a fact, here's an example. There's this game I used to play called RS (I don't know if I'm allowed to say the full name). RS had a combat system like non-other. It was very weird, everything worked in slow ticks, player's characters look turns hitting each other. Very strange, but what made it work was the INTENSITY. As weird as it sounds, players enjoy getting hit or hitting others really hard (doing high damage). Because it causes excitement or panic, all of which is ENTERTAINING! The PvP system in RS was weird, but it worked! The day the company decided to make MAJOR changes to the combat system KILLED the game. Hundreds of players (including myself) made threads warning the company of RS, but they still went through with it. When all they had to do was scrap the idea, and make MINOR adjustments to their perfectly working PvP system. The company of RS didn't listen to the community until it was already too late. After suffering from losing thousands of players (or should I say the player's money for membership), only then did they decide to start working with the community by using polling systems for future content. Which allows the players to vote on what they want, and the company of RS would only accept polls that pass with a 75% 'yes' rate. This happened in 2012, which is NOT long ago, and RS community is still divided to this very day. My point is this...
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." <---- This phrase is EXTREMELY important to remember.
I mean think about, the MAIN things people ask for are new maps, new modes, and a better match making system. Do you understand what that means? That means people enjoy PvP the way it is, but they grow bored of playing the same modes, and dealing with rage quitters. Also, many players only PvE for the things they want or need for PvP. So yes, PvP does require a little bit of work. However the changes/updates should ONLY be made in SMALL doses fueled with feedback.
Also, I'm aware "feedback" is easier said then done. Because it's very hard to get matches on the preview server. And there's only a handful of people who actually type out constructive feedback.
But to get back to the main point of this post, Tenacity is NOT needed. Only minor adjustments.
It would be very nice if you guys could stop all this doom saying about a system you didn't experiment at all.
I can agree with this though. I'd like a king of the hill pvp mode, involving teams of 20 players like in gauntlgrym. Forcing 20 players to get their fingers out and fight instead of running away from fights to desperately try to cap flags would be a great change.
However tenacity in no way affects what has broken pvp on live, which is lack of a matchmaking system. Is tenacity terrible? Not nearly as much as some people are making it out to be. Is it great? Not at all - it makes so little difference I wonder why they're bothering with it in the first place. It will certainly further complicate balancing future classes and abilities, as well as future modes and maps and all current and future pvp gear.
Tenacity fixes nothing, breaks something, and complicates more.
For example: The '+' represents defense resistance.
-Without Tenacity
Player A's Defense: +++
Player B's Defense: +++++
-With Tenacity
Player A's Defense: +++ plus (++)
Player B's Defense: +++++ plus (++)
-Possible Balancing without Tenacity
Player A's Defense: ++++
Player B's Defense: ++++
The guy was basically saying adding DR to every class doesn't equalize things. However, each class's gear gives different stats. So but I guess we'll just wait and see how things workout.
Honestly, I have no problems wrecking people on my GF that's not even decked out. I still have rank 7's and a normal plagefire. If there was a kdr system, I could easily be above a 4.0 kdr.
OOHH MYY GOOODDD xD!! They should add a KDR system xD!!
Tenacity isn't meant to equalize things. It's meant to avoid situations where the first person to land a single rotation of encounter powers won without opportunity to fight back where equal teams were fighting each other. However the only situations where this occurred were in matches where uneven teams were fighting each other - until there is a matchmaking system, the affects of Tenacity on these purely speculative situations are basically impossible to test. Furthermore what is the use of improving matches between evenly geared players if these matches never occur.
I think the thing Tenacity fixes is this:
They admitted they wanted a way to reduce the insane damage that people can spit out in 1 rotation, so they wanted a way to reduce some of not only the burst sources of damage but also dmg in general to make longer fights and enable people to fight back instead of getting control/proned 100-0. Enter added DR in PVP along with CC resist and less dmg on crits (essentially double DR boost on crits).
Then they added tenacity to further those stats but again, realized that only nerfing crit made ARP even better of a stat, so they make tenacity = arp resist as well as the other things that it currently does.
They realized regen/lifesteal/healing in general was WAY too much and adding MORE DR makes builds even more unkillable, and wanted to reduce the benefits of the ultra regen/tank builds without people crying all over how their PVE build got nerfed.
ENTER Healing Depression.
What is the end result?
Players do take more damage to go from 100% to 0% to kill however because healing.temp HP/regen/lifesteal are ALL nerfed HARD, players actually end up needing LESS damage to kill over a more drawn out fight than they did before.
What does all that mean? It takes MORE dmg to burst someone down and LESS dmg to kill someone over time than before, creating a more "even" playing field in pvp.
Does it need a tweak? Yes its not perfect now and many suggestions have been put in the forums here. But noone can look me in the face and say pvp WAS balanced on live. There are so many issues with it, even a mathcmaking system wouldnt fix the issues.
Also to the post above, I dont get why people cry about K/D ratio. TRs have the best K/D ratio on average in almsot everygame and sometimes a Sent on live can compete with it because of IBS crits, Now its QQ because GFs are the tankiest and therefore have the best chance to have high K/D?
Last time I checked it was about domination points not K/D....
To further the post above for people who dont understand. Lets say that each (+) from the above post = 10k BASE dmg needed to kill someone.
-Without Tenacity
Player A's Defense: +++ (30k dmg needed)
Player B's Defense: +++++ (50k dmg needed)
-With Tenacity
Player A's Defense: +++ plus (++) (50k dmg needed)
Player B's Defense: +++++ plus (++) (70k dmg needed)
What this did is significantly reduce the chances that player A will get 1 rotation combo down OR even bursted down without the ability to do anything.
It wont and isnt inteded to "even" the playing field, that is ridiculous to think that a character specced and geared for LESS survivability would compete with someone like a tank stacked with HP.
What it does though is gives more players a chance in more situations to respond to dmg sources and potentially survive. Ill tell you right now the only way ANY sentinel will kill another sent is from a full combo rotation including daily where you basically take someone from 85%+ to 0 in 1 rotation. Now if someone is 85%+ HP in a 1v1 youll almsot never see that. What you will see is less crits and less damage from that combo, but that doesnt mean it was worthless because now that sent cant regen/heal HP like they used to either, meaning he will be low, not dead, but now have a CHANCE to escape/survive although its still a slim chance, where as he would just die before....