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TR PvP Question
iarus87
Member Posts: 62
Hello guys, i'm quite new to this game and, as all games i've ever played, i joined the "rogue path". Now i'm 60 and looking for a good build, but i really don't know which one i should take. Perma stealth seems good but using that much "utility encounter" equals less damage output (also, i don't know which one is better between MI or WK permastealth...i've only found an INT MI permastealth guide online). MI Exe "standard" build with Lashing, Dazing/SmokeBomb and Deft make fair damage but i feel it's "weak" when it comes to survivability. So, what you suggest for PvP endgame? I really like to understand mechanics and theorycrafting of this game.
Thank a lot in advance!
Thank a lot in advance!
Post edited by iarus87 on
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Just a question: if the build relies on stealth+ranged+melee when possible, why not go for WK instead of MI? Is that such important Shocking Execution or other features from MI?
Currently I'm using a MI Exe build with Deft-Lashing-Dazing/SmokeBomb as encounters, DF/CoS at will, Lurkers&Execution daily and Sneak Attack and Skillful Infiltrator as Class Feat. I have poor gear (7k GS, just made 60), so i rely on trying to make the biggest damage possible in a "suicide assault" with Deft>Stealth>Dazing>Lashing>DF...if i'm already alive, i continue DF xD Just kidding, but i'm really weak, i like how this build damages opponents but maybe to be really effective i need better gear, so i'll take down enemies before they can CC me. That's why i was thinking about permastealth. I was just wondering about roll another rogue to make him more "stealthy" instead of a glass cannon, just to have both "versions"! Only if "damage" rogue can work, of course.
As for now, i saw 3 kind of builds: Gloaming Cut dependent, Gloaming Cut free (kind of "ranged"), Whisperknife. Gloaming Cut seems good, it can act as a gap closer and refill continuously stealth bar, while dealing fair damage. Ranged MI and Whisperknife sounds both good but i haven't tried WK...however, tooltips are interesting, so why don't prefere WK to ranged MI?
I'm sorry for all this questions but i want to make my fact straight before re-roll new rogue or abandon MI melee one!
As for my input regarding the topic, I highly recommend you don't play with stealth unless you get more experience with the TR class. We don't do much DPS when we spec for Stealth, which means we have to be crafty and strategic about how we do damage. That's the bad thing about playing a stealth-based rogue. The good part is that this type of play style is cheap to create and its performance will depend on how well you'll be able to elude your opponents while in Stealth. This includes eluding them while dealing damage with Gloaming Cut, which is hard because you have to be in melee range to do it. But there are a variety of ways to do this without getting detected.
If you want a good Stealth-based hit-and-run one-shot type of build, you may want to try out Gambit Click's spec. He no longer players, and he didn't exactly post a guide about it, but he popularized this sort of playstyle. He is using the Executioner tree with 5 points in Speed Swindle (Sab) and Nimble Dodge (Sab). For Exe tree, he has Dazzling Blades, Thrill of the Kill, Brutal Backstab and Critical Teamwork. And of course Overrun Critical. For the Heroic Feats, he has Weapon Mastery (3/3), Toughness (2/3), Swift Footwork (5/5), Twilight Adept (5/5), and Improved Cunning Sneak (5/5).
For his encounters, he uses Shadow Strike, Impossible to Catch and Lashing Blade. Do take note that you need at least a regular Vorpal Enchantment for this sort of build. Click had a Perfect Vorpal so you can just imagine how much damage he does with Lashing Blade. So what he does is to find an opponent, whittle him down with Cloud of Steel, and execute him with Lashing Blade. That should kill your opponent already. And once the opponent is dead, use ITC to avoid being damaged and CC'd, and then Shadow Strike to stealth back up. Rinse and repeat, find your next victim. This sort of play style has had a lot of players complaining about us Rogues. It also doesn't help that we have powerful daily that ignores armor resistances, Shocking Execution. This is most useful against GWF's in Unstoppable as it ignores their damage mitigation.
As of your question of why do Permastealth TR's prefer MI over WK, the reason is ITC. It's our best defensive and utility tool as it allows us to break from CC if we find ourselves in a situation where we made a mistake and have been CC'd. Permastealth WK's are a viable choice, though. But you'll have to play really carefully. The WK at-will deals HAMSTER tons of damage contrary to popular belief. People don't realize it yet, but Dish Strike is **** OP.
So, basically you suggest me an MI paragon build Executioner style...damage dealing but within stealth, so when stealth finish SS and repeat.
I'd probably go for something like that (don't have enough AD to respec talents xD) while learning dodge mechanics, but i've a question: why does this build has been abandoned?
As for WK, ItC is a strong encounter for sure but aren't this build supposed to be permastealth? So, that's only to be protected from mistakes? If that's the only reason, maybe WK could be better. As you said, WK at will isn't bad at all and VP seems a very good all purpose encounter, also acting as a gap closer.
For Permastealth MI vs. WK, it's like this. A permastealth TR's main purpose is to hold nodes. And sometimes you will face 3 to 5 opponents at the same time. And when this happens, you'll have less room to move around in the node as they are actively trying to hound you down, so we have ITC to give your opponents a ray of hope and make them stick to the node much longer. Since they can see you, they will attack you and waste their encounters. Only to realize you can just disappear again and make them play hide and seek once more.
Permastealth WK's will not be able to do such feats. But instead, what they can do is give your opponents, all 5 of em, DoT's that amount to 12k each if it crits. They get to kill things faster than MI's, but are a whole lot more squishier.
Just a question about the "Clik build" (i probably try to adapt it to my current feats and powers, and also i always want to fully understand builds): using Impact Shot reduces damage output to get advantage from in-stealth Impact Shot stun effect. But that's all matter of preference, isn't it? So i can use Dazing Strike, right?
ps. which one do you think is better? I should consider permastealth more like a premade build while "click"'s is more viable for pug?
For PUG's, both are viable. It all ends up with how you want to play your TR. Currently there are 3 types of TR builds for PVP, one concentrates on stealth, which is us. One concentrates on one-shotting people to death, which is Click's, Zokir's, etc, these are high end players with high end enchants. And the last one concentrates on chain-stunning people, and this is the build that majority of the TR's play nowadays. TR's are really effective in PVP no matter what build you use. So if you want to hold nodes, become a valuable support for your team by holding nodes and preventing point gain, go for stealth. If you want to assist your allies in killing opponents faster to capture nodes, go for one-shot.
However, i'd like to thank you for all suggestions!
At-Will:
- Duelist's Flurry or Sly Flourish: Choose 1.
- Cloud of Steel: Whittles down your opponent's HP from range.
Encounters:
- Impact Shot: Stuns the opponent when used from Stealth, and acts as an interrupt. This skill has 3 charges and when used from stealth, it will cost no charges. This will allow you to hit the opponent 4 times and hits harder when it crits.
- Impossible to Catch: Deflects all attacks for 5 seconds and gives immunity from CC.
- Shadow Strike: Refill your Stealth. Use this after using ITC.
Dailies:
- Lurker's Assault: Infinite Stealth for 10 seconds. This will allow you to use encounters from stealth and your opponent will not see you as long as you have Improved Cunning Sneak feat.
- Shocking Execution: Ignores Damage Reduction, Deflection, Dodge. Will kill anything with HP below 40%.
Class Features:
- Skillful Infiltrator: 15% faster Run Speed, 3% Deflect and Crit.
- Sneak Attack: 30% faster Run Speed in Stealth.
Feats.
- Weapon Mastery (3/3): More crit.
- Toughness (2/3): More HP.
- Swift Footwork (5/5): More stamina regen which will synergize well with Nimble Dodge and Twilight Adept.
- Twilight Adept (5/5): You gain Stealth whenever you dodge.
- Improved Cunning Sneak (5/5): 20% Increased Stealth.
Executioner.
- Dazzling Blades (5/5): 5% chance to reduce your encounter CD by 1 second.
- Devastating Shroud (5/5): 10% extra crit severity and crit chance after using Shocking Execution.
- Brutal Backstab (5/5): 25% extra crit severity when you are in stealth.
- Critical Teamwork (5/5): 5% extra crit for you and your team.
- Overrun Critical (1/1): After you crit, deal 35% of your crit severity damage in your next attack.
Saboteur.
- Speed Swindle (5/5): 10% more run speed for you when you crit a foe, and your opponent loses 10%. Catch those runners.
- Nimble Dodge (5/5): Dodging costs 10% less stamina, and 20% when dodging in stealth. Synergizes well with Twilight Adept and Swift Footwork. Works better once you get Elven Resolve Sharandar Boon.
Let's not forget to mention I'm aiming to add in a 4th option!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The one-shot is the Click's build.
I'm unable to understand the chainstun build. Which encounters and at-will relies on?
Wonderful! I'm looking forward to seeing you add this 4th option, kweassa.
Same. I've been meeting more of em lately but most of em are new players that don't seem to have epics yet. I've yet to meet one who won't die in 10 - 15 seconds. So I imagine they'd fall within 5 seconds against a one-shot executioner.
But I'm imagining that a setup with PoB, Smoke Bomb, and Vengeance's Pursuit should do the trick in unmasking a Stealth TR in PVP. Add some Bilethorns in as well. Based on what I've been reading, all they need to do is get the Knife Throw portion of the VP on the TR and they can track them even if they're in Stealth. I think this is nifty and I hope to be able to meet one who can do this. PoB will be used to whittle down the Stealth TR's meter and pressure him to use up his Stealth Refill encounters or pop ITC, Smoke Bomb will be used to pressure the TR even further as it will limit the opponent's movement space. Once the TR is out of Stealth, start spamming VP, and get one Dish Strike in to give the TR some Bleeds and some Bilethorn ticks in order to prevent him from entering Stealth, or to make sure his Stealth will have a lower duration. I think it's a sound plan for unmasking that TR. The Bleeds will also inflict some serious damage after some time.
A+ on this man. This is 95% what I run. I will have DF in 100% of the time, jump hit, jump hit, jump flurry third hit. Always shocking in, but for the other daily it's a lot more flexible. Bloodbath can do a ton of damage and allow you to survive/regen/finish recharging a stealth bar, and whirlwind of blades can do a lot of damage to multiple targets and both are great options here as well. Also I would always recommend 3/3 toughness, and just 4/5 swift footwork instead.
Ninja edit: For class features a lot of time tenacious concealment will serve you better than sneak attack as well.
Which btw reminds me i met a tr soloing valindra a few days back and he told me he was using pure saboteur with a recovery/deflect/regen build... seemed pretty pvpei to me.
What do you think about? Planned well?
Strength would be more overall damage than DEX. I ran the numbers for a TR in another thread but can't say I remember which. I think you're overlooking one of the most important PVP stats of all and that is CON. No matter how much you may want to be permastealth, you never will be. That GWF will use a takedown when he's near you and hit you, or he'll threatening rush as soon as you come into his line of sight, or he'll get a lucky shot with frontline surge, and when you take damage your stealth is reduced. God help you if you're a permastealth with low life, running sneak attack instead of tenacious and he gets a deep gash on you. A smart CW will come up to you and use oppressive force and reveal you, and if you're squishy, you're dead. Another TR will use bilethorn, maybe path of the blades even and you will be revealed.
Thank you in advance!
I play as an MI Rogue with Executioner.
Generally, I play with Shadowstrike to refill my Stealth Meter, Impossible to Catch and either Impact Shot or Lashing Blade.
My At-Wills are Cloud of Steel and Duelist's Flurry/Sly Flourish.
My passive features are Sneak Attack (the 30% movement speed bonus is AWESOME) and Skillfull Infiltrator (best passives overall)/Invisible Infiltrator if I just died and I have 100% Action Points. That way, I can refill my Stealth Meter by using my Daily! After I use my Daily, I go back to Skillfull Infiltrator.
My Dailies are Shocking Execution and Lurker's Assault.
Use SE when you have an enemy at half health. 90% of the time, they're dead, unless they're really well geared and buffed by a Cleric.
Use LA when you're in danger and need an escape OR when you want to keep standing on the capture points without losing stealth.
Make sure you stack stats in this order: Critical Chance/Armor Penetration (they're equal in terms of importance) > Recovery > Power.
Once Critical Chance and Armor Penetration reach their limit (around 2500 for Armor Penetration and 2500-3000 for Critical Chance), max out Power.
If you do the math, Impact Shot deals more damage than Lashing Blade, except it doesn't provide the same burst damage Lashing Blade does in a split second. Overall, I think Impact Shot is a lot better. It gives you range and a stun if you use it while stealthed. Also, while stealthed, it doesn't use a charge, so you have 4 Impact Shots to use to hit an opponent.
My damage for Lashing Blade is currently 4785-5684 Physical Damage vs my Impact Shot with 2592-3079 Physical Damage. If I use Lashing Blade from stealth, it guarantees a critical hit for around 12,000-15,000 damage. Impact Shot (if used from stealth) deals 3079 x 4 = 12,316 damage. HOWEVER, Impact Shot also has a chance to become critical. With one Impact Shot I can deal 7000 with a critical. Now that's 7000 + (3079x3) = 16,237 damage. That's if ONE of them crits. If more crit, then Impact Shot will obviously deal a lot more damage than Lashing Blade. Also, since Lashing Blade is one hit only, you have an even greater chance to miss with it.