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Suggested changes to Vengeance's Pursuit (for PvP quality)
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Vengenace's Pursuit, would be THE defining power of the Whisperknife path, and yet is seemingly overlooked in PvP (as well as PvE) for a variety of reasons. It's really a shame, since the power itself has such great potential.
(1) Nobody escapes a Whisperknife
** Literally, it is near impossible to escape from someone using Vengeance's Pursuit. This power is probably the single most volatile one to suffer when someone's trying desparately to get away. No matter how you try, once the initial strike has landed, the WK is on to you like glue.
(2) No stealth evades the Whisperknife
** So long as the very first hit lands, from that point on stealth is meaningless. The teleport-melee portion of the attack will track even those in stealth, and once that happens, you are within stealth-detection range, which results in the WK tagging you again with VP.
(3) Makeshift, but useful Stun
** Sometimes, melee powers like Lashing Blades can actually be quite difficult to land on someone with good combat senses and keen reaction times. The moment you close in to visible range, even through a power as speedy as Deft Strike, they'll evade/dodge the attack immediately. Activated in stealth, VP will stun the target so long as it is a hit -- meaning: you can observe and tag the target, time the moment when he's stationary or used up his dodge/evades, and then close in with VP for a guranteed stun-Lashing Blade.
These wonderful traits, IMO are worthy as any other power, and would seemingly make a good choice for a rogue -- and yet there are some distinct problems with it that seems to discourage people from taking it as their main.
(1) Paradigm shift in rogue builds
** "The Melee Assassin" type of gameplay, is nowadays pretty much obsolete. The new FotM, "Invisible Medium-Ranged Knifethrower" has taken place. Seems like people hardly ever need a reason to really close in to anyone in the first place.
(2) Activation/Animation time is slow, often glitchy.
** This usually happens around maximum range of VP. On initial press of the button the power starts animating (the characteristic "jump").. but if the distance increases outside maximum range before the power activation is fully realized, the activation is cancelled. What you will see is the rogue jumping like Mario many times, on each attempted activation, but the power keeps cancelling out.
(3) Power "reaction" is clunky
** On successful initial hit, a reactivation of the power will teleport your rogue to enemy position. But the time duration between the initial hit and reactivation often seems much too long, sometimes failing without apparent reason. You throw the knife, see it land, press the button, but it doesn't activate.
(4) The damage of the power is just too low, and the AoE radius is very small
** Self explanatory.
(5) The Feat "Determined Pursuit", just seems unnoticeable in most cases.
** Since the initial activation of the skill is so slow, it's pretty much difficult to "interrupt" anything in the first place. Sometimes, it's even difficult to interrupt PvE mobs. Activation. Slow.
(6) VP vs. ITC, no contest
** The combat worthiness of VP as a CC breaker, is close to nil in actual PvP. VP breaks CC only on the secondary activation, and only from stealth. Unfortuantely, the times you are targetted and bombarded by CCs, is when you are visible. Therefore, even if you diligently tag the target before entering full combat, you are CCd. So, you can't activate stealth... hence, you can't activate the CC breaker in the first place. The only times when this trait is useful, is when you are acidentally hit by a root type CC during stealth... and that really doesn't happen at all. What, I see this happening to me maybe once, in a hundred games played?
(7) VP fails to activate.. but my stealth is gone
** This usually happens because VP can only teleport you to enemies if there are no physical obstructions in between. You tag someone, but he goes behind a pillar, then poof, the 2nd part of VP fails to activate. But the problem is, it doesn't really "fail". For some reason, instead of refusing to activate, the power does activate, and therefore, uses up your stealth -- it just doesn't do anything.
The suggested fixes to this problem would be:
(1) Paradigm Shift
** No possible fix. Would love to see more rogue players take up the challenge of unique builds, rather than stick with mass-produced FotM copycat builds?
(2) Slow Activation, (3) Clunky Reaction, (7) Failed Activation kills stealth
** Better coding, I guess.
** It would be really helpful to VP if the "animation activation" and the "actual power activation" matched more closely, so if you see the "jump", then you know the power will activate no matter what. I will not ask for a faster animation, since I can accept that "jumping" is a characteristig/aesthetic trait, as well as an inherent, given weakness. But please, as long as you jump, let the knife go.
** Also, it'd be very helpful if the system acknowledges secondary activation as soon as the thrown dagger hits and registers damage.
** And finally, if I can't close in due to the enemy going behind walls, then fine, refuse to activate... instead of doing nothing but killing my stealth!
(4) Damage too low
** Would it be too much to ask for maybe a 20% increase in base damage?
(5) Determined Pursuit does nothing
** I'd ask for a different utility from the Feat. Instead of the interrupt/slow that is hardly practical, I'd like something like the initial "tag" marking a target visibly -- marked targets being detectable upto further ranges despite in stealth, and the second activation (the melee portion) briefly making the target visible to allies as well.. maybe for 2 seconds? I mean, VP is obviously a non-popular power with weak utility and a number of mechanic flaws. So can't the people who use VP at least be feared from other rogues as the ones who can hunt down stealthers the best?
(6) VP vs. ITC, no contest
** Obviously, the "breaks CC" just is not working. The conditions of CC-breaking is contradictory to the reality of actual combat. You're CCd when you are visible. When you are CCd, you cannot activate stealth. When you cannot activate stealth, even if you have tagged something, you can't break free... You can break from CC when you are stealthed, but then you are rarely, if ever, CCd in the first place !!
So, personally, I can accept the fact that not being able to use ITC as an inherent weakness is a risk Whisperknives have to take. That's all fine. If it'd be possible for the above suggestions to be implemented (glitch/mechanic fixes, changes in Determined Pursuit Feat, slight increase in damage), then I'd just accept the CC breaker portion being removed, totally. It's not working anyway.
(1) Nobody escapes a Whisperknife
** Literally, it is near impossible to escape from someone using Vengeance's Pursuit. This power is probably the single most volatile one to suffer when someone's trying desparately to get away. No matter how you try, once the initial strike has landed, the WK is on to you like glue.
(2) No stealth evades the Whisperknife
** So long as the very first hit lands, from that point on stealth is meaningless. The teleport-melee portion of the attack will track even those in stealth, and once that happens, you are within stealth-detection range, which results in the WK tagging you again with VP.
(3) Makeshift, but useful Stun
** Sometimes, melee powers like Lashing Blades can actually be quite difficult to land on someone with good combat senses and keen reaction times. The moment you close in to visible range, even through a power as speedy as Deft Strike, they'll evade/dodge the attack immediately. Activated in stealth, VP will stun the target so long as it is a hit -- meaning: you can observe and tag the target, time the moment when he's stationary or used up his dodge/evades, and then close in with VP for a guranteed stun-Lashing Blade.
These wonderful traits, IMO are worthy as any other power, and would seemingly make a good choice for a rogue -- and yet there are some distinct problems with it that seems to discourage people from taking it as their main.
(1) Paradigm shift in rogue builds
** "The Melee Assassin" type of gameplay, is nowadays pretty much obsolete. The new FotM, "Invisible Medium-Ranged Knifethrower" has taken place. Seems like people hardly ever need a reason to really close in to anyone in the first place.
(2) Activation/Animation time is slow, often glitchy.
** This usually happens around maximum range of VP. On initial press of the button the power starts animating (the characteristic "jump").. but if the distance increases outside maximum range before the power activation is fully realized, the activation is cancelled. What you will see is the rogue jumping like Mario many times, on each attempted activation, but the power keeps cancelling out.
(3) Power "reaction" is clunky
** On successful initial hit, a reactivation of the power will teleport your rogue to enemy position. But the time duration between the initial hit and reactivation often seems much too long, sometimes failing without apparent reason. You throw the knife, see it land, press the button, but it doesn't activate.
(4) The damage of the power is just too low, and the AoE radius is very small
** Self explanatory.
(5) The Feat "Determined Pursuit", just seems unnoticeable in most cases.
** Since the initial activation of the skill is so slow, it's pretty much difficult to "interrupt" anything in the first place. Sometimes, it's even difficult to interrupt PvE mobs. Activation. Slow.
(6) VP vs. ITC, no contest
** The combat worthiness of VP as a CC breaker, is close to nil in actual PvP. VP breaks CC only on the secondary activation, and only from stealth. Unfortuantely, the times you are targetted and bombarded by CCs, is when you are visible. Therefore, even if you diligently tag the target before entering full combat, you are CCd. So, you can't activate stealth... hence, you can't activate the CC breaker in the first place. The only times when this trait is useful, is when you are acidentally hit by a root type CC during stealth... and that really doesn't happen at all. What, I see this happening to me maybe once, in a hundred games played?
(7) VP fails to activate.. but my stealth is gone
** This usually happens because VP can only teleport you to enemies if there are no physical obstructions in between. You tag someone, but he goes behind a pillar, then poof, the 2nd part of VP fails to activate. But the problem is, it doesn't really "fail". For some reason, instead of refusing to activate, the power does activate, and therefore, uses up your stealth -- it just doesn't do anything.
The suggested fixes to this problem would be:
(1) Paradigm Shift
** No possible fix. Would love to see more rogue players take up the challenge of unique builds, rather than stick with mass-produced FotM copycat builds?
(2) Slow Activation, (3) Clunky Reaction, (7) Failed Activation kills stealth
** Better coding, I guess.
** It would be really helpful to VP if the "animation activation" and the "actual power activation" matched more closely, so if you see the "jump", then you know the power will activate no matter what. I will not ask for a faster animation, since I can accept that "jumping" is a characteristig/aesthetic trait, as well as an inherent, given weakness. But please, as long as you jump, let the knife go.
** Also, it'd be very helpful if the system acknowledges secondary activation as soon as the thrown dagger hits and registers damage.
** And finally, if I can't close in due to the enemy going behind walls, then fine, refuse to activate... instead of doing nothing but killing my stealth!
(4) Damage too low
** Would it be too much to ask for maybe a 20% increase in base damage?
(5) Determined Pursuit does nothing
** I'd ask for a different utility from the Feat. Instead of the interrupt/slow that is hardly practical, I'd like something like the initial "tag" marking a target visibly -- marked targets being detectable upto further ranges despite in stealth, and the second activation (the melee portion) briefly making the target visible to allies as well.. maybe for 2 seconds? I mean, VP is obviously a non-popular power with weak utility and a number of mechanic flaws. So can't the people who use VP at least be feared from other rogues as the ones who can hunt down stealthers the best?
(6) VP vs. ITC, no contest
** Obviously, the "breaks CC" just is not working. The conditions of CC-breaking is contradictory to the reality of actual combat. You're CCd when you are visible. When you are CCd, you cannot activate stealth. When you cannot activate stealth, even if you have tagged something, you can't break free... You can break from CC when you are stealthed, but then you are rarely, if ever, CCd in the first place !!
So, personally, I can accept the fact that not being able to use ITC as an inherent weakness is a risk Whisperknives have to take. That's all fine. If it'd be possible for the above suggestions to be implemented (glitch/mechanic fixes, changes in Determined Pursuit Feat, slight increase in damage), then I'd just accept the CC breaker portion being removed, totally. It's not working anyway.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
0
Comments
1. Paradigm Shift: The problem is that most players prefer straight up high stat builds which requires very little synergy in skill choices. And more often than not in this game, high stat builds net higher rewards than "creative" or "unique" builds that present alternative play styles. The only solution I can think of for this problem is for players to release more of their builds in public, and to discuss more of their ideas and strategies in the forums. Sadly not too many people are keen in writing guides.
2. Slow Activation, Clunky Reaction, Failed Activation kills stealth: I've got another idea for this. Make the "slow activation" portion of the knife throw into a "dodge." So as long as you are jumping in the air, you are immune to CC and damage. I find that the jump portion of VP to be unnecessary and irrelevant. So either they turn it into an animation that requires less time to finish itself up, or they give the slow and clunky activation some meaning. Just my 2 cents.
3. Damage too low: Agreed. Boost this to 3k or 4k. It's a Paragon Encounter. It should at least be that epic. Or what they could do is that they can make VP's Stealth Activation to work as an AoE stun and not just a single target stun.
4. Determined Pursuit does nothing: Haven't tested this one out extensively so I can't really comment on it. But as for your suggestion, why not? That'd be cool for the party.
5. VP vs. ITC, no contest: True. Last I checked, VP was still tagged as an At-Will which gave it zero CD. If by any chance this will be patched in the near future, it'd be great if the devs reduced the CD of VP to 4 seconds like Wicked Reminder. VP is a really, really useless skill. Effects, damage, animation, everything about it is just clunky and unreliable. But turning it into an encounter that players can use more flexibly would negate most of those problems. Keep the clunky animation, the low damage, the effects, but once it turns into a 4 second CD encounter, not only will it do more damage and entice more players into using it, but it'll give the Scoundrel Path a better purpose thanks to Action Rush (15% chance to generate a flat 15% AP). We'll be seeing some awesome new builds if this could be possible.