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PVP needs a revamp
envelo2234
Member Posts: 5 Arc User
Why you may ask? Here's why say you are level 50 your pvp level range would be 50-59. Now while the game may upscale everyone's level to 59 it does not upscale your attack, defense, or health to compensate for the opponents that may be 55 plus. This results in the players who are on the lower end of the level range getting killed in three hits. This also makes pvp very unbalanced. Here's what I propose, instead of level 10-19, 20-29, 30-39,40-49,50-59, and 60 use 10-15,16-21,22-27,28-33,34-39,40-45,46-51,52-57, and 58-60. This would greatly balance the pvp in it would lower the difference between the two teams gear greatly evenly the playing field. So instead of a team of level 50-52 going against a team of 57-59 and totally getting owned cause of the difference in the gear that is available to their respected level, you would have two teams of level 52-57 battling it out on a more level field. I believe this would make pvp more fun as it would give both sides a fighting chance instead of on team being more dominate because of gear. This, I believe, would also make players think more of strategy instead of just going in and having people target those they can kill in two hits. It really just needs a revamp and as much as Perfect World claims they have balanced the pvp (which didn't really work) this, in my opinion, would make a considerable change in the balancing of the pvp system for Neverwinter.
Post edited by envelo2234 on
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Agreed.
Bracket adjusting is not a bad idea, but it would do more harm than good for NW:
Apparent "imbalance" is most often caused by:
(1) General grade of gear of the team/individual, rather than level difference itself
(2) Difference in individual build and general skill level of the team/individual
Adjusting brackets would result in the same horrid gank-kill experience, and much fewer PvP queue pops. You'll still meet the top-geared P2W people and get roflstomped anyway, but now you can't even play PvP when you'd want to.
The better solution would be adding in a normalizing factor that might slightly compensate under-geared players and boost their basic performance at a set rate, so the discrepancy hits less hard. Or conversely, impose performance penalties to people with way too-high gear level than compared to the rest of the players. That way, the people with better gear will still perform better than others with lower grade, but just not at an overpowering rate.
This method has been tested in MMOGs, and it works well -- the prime example being BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic". Some people hate the 'Bolster' system with a passion, but the very fact they hate it so much, is actually a telling sign of how the system works really, really well. It helps undergeared people by boosting their performance to the "bare minimum" of competency, so while they would still be easy kills when put in a 1vs1 situation against a fully-geared opponent, but still as a team they would have some competency.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
so you (level 58, green gear) would like to find lvl 60 enemies with T2 equip, rank 7-8-9 enchantments ?
Really?
Seen this and stopped reading
This forum is flooded already with new lvl 60 players crying how hard and unfair and unbalanced pvp is. I cant imagine having lvl 58's in a pvp match with a 60. Would be an absolute murder fest.
Yeah wow, that is such a bad I idea. I think you could put 10 average geared level 58's on me and I wouldn't die and I'm not even in a full t2 yet.
Just keep hitting them till they stay down. Unless it's a tanky class they're not that hard to double tap.
Hence, the answer to balance is gear normalization, not bracket adjusting.
Like mentioned before, this works. It worked wonderfully well in SWTOR in the guise of the 'Bolster system'.
Some people there hated it because it made the newer, "greener" folk not as much an easy kill as one might expect. Ultimately, people with the top grade gear were still much more advantaged than those with not, but at least the "green" folk weren't ROFLSTOMP 1~2 shot fodder.
Just for sake of example, they could research/datamine the average gear level of the ~59 bracket. If it was something like GS 9,000 for that bracket, then let the automatic level adjustment work on the gear itself as well, not only for the character spec itself... so if someone had only maybe 6,000 GS worth of performance, the gear performance would be boosted for upto maybe 8,000 level or something... while in turn, those with 12k GS, would be a little bit handicapped so the gear performance is cut down to maybe 10k.
This way, it's still 8k gear vs 10k gear, but its a helluva lot better than 6k vs 12k.
Frankly, there's no reason for people who really love PvP to object to this, because skill becomes more important when the gap in gear difference becomes narrower. Empirically, the only people who hate this would be those who like being able to one-shot people and shoot fish in a barrel (...whom, in my personal opinion, aren't really PvPers at all.. they're more like PvErs who like fighting more intelligent mobs)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Be very careful about lessening the impact of someones gear when you are talking about a game where some people spend real money to get that gear. It could have very negative financial effects. I honestly think it would in NW.
Should be all about how you play and spec your character. Of course that would lose PWE a lot of money, so doubt that would happen.
What do you think will make more money?
The playerbase determining the game balance is HAMSTER, and simply quitting the game en masse after the hype dies down in a year or two?
Or, the players agreeing NW has made an enjoyable experience well-round and staying around for many years?
...
I'm not sure if the basic payment strategy is laid out by Cryptic themselves, or by PW standards, but at this rate there's no denying the PvP has some serious issues. Nobody really cares if someone drags in a stupidly powerful FotM build + hundreds of dollars spent on a fictional game equipment when they fight AI mobs. But if it comes down to player-vs-player competition, the direct, insane amount of increase in performance through gear doesn't just "give you an edge" -- it kills the competition itself, and subsequently, the entire game content.
We've all seen many many games go down this path. Once people initially lose faith about the PvP, unlike PvE, there's no turning the tide. It's like a snowball turning into an avalance that cannot be reversed. Once people start quitting PvP, the content goes straight to the coffin. We've seen this in CoH, we've seen this in Champions Online, and we're now on the verge of seeing its signs here in NW ...and when a game's most competitional and egotisitcal content (the main motivators for pvp) dies out, how's PW ever gonna milk any more money out of players that refuse to enter the game?
...
Already internet news/communities are acknowledging that NW has a PvP that is found lacking and much wanting. People talk about this stuff in blogs. They warn others to stay away if you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars, only to find out your stupidly overpowered character become the main reason why people just don't want to play with you. Just tonight I've played around 10 games, of which 8 of them ended in the first 1 minute. Lopsided game that you have no hope of turning around, or even enjoying the fight itself, and therefore someone walks out.
Woop-dee-too...
** There's that GWF with around 15k GS, brainless charge into 4 people and slaughtering all of them.
** There's that TR with the 19k crit Lashing Blades and 7k crit Impact Shot. Bam! 2-shot. You're dead.
** There's that CW with crocklshi* of damage + back-to-back CC... Bam! you're stunned, dazed, rooted, dead.
...etc etc..
..now this may certainly be fun for the people who enjoy slaughtering people who have no way of fighting back (griefers, these bunch), but the end result is the game's dead. Someone can't take it anymore, so walks. 5 vs 4. The odds got even worse... so now everyone leaves.
...
I seriously urge the next time someone feels all invincible in their money-bought gear and enchantments, that feel of pride and invincibility will only last for maybe 1 minute in to the fight -- because without gear balancing, nobody's really willing to become moving target dummies for them... and when you have nobody to play PvP with, who will anyone feel invincible against?
Ofcourse, it's not the fault of people who get high grade gear. It's the fault of the developers. They did something no other MMOGs ever did -- they didn't set up a PvP-normalization whether be it damage, resistance, CC times, or etc.. they just simply allowed the massive overpowering stats to carry over to PvP content, and even had the galls to mix drastically different gear levels to compete in a single arena -- the end result being every game you play, you pray to god that both teams are comparable in performance, and therefore you might enjoy the game for at least more than 2 minutes.
I mean, heck, I've never been in a game where I felt it was ok to have terrible, terrible players in your game, as long as there's someone around....
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You can drop them again with a few at-wills or one encounter the majority of the time, SF is no problem at all.
And once again, why does no one mention the fact of how easy it is to gain a relatively high gs of 12-14k? 6k at level 60? What? It is not so difficult to do your daileys when they are actually up, to invoke, to spam leadership in professions, to refine enchants, to buy glory gear...to actually farm the gear.
Without letting the game dominate ones life, it is not difficult to get to 12-14k. To really spend the time (not the money!) to make the actual effort to get to 16k only to see those who have invested little to no thought or time on their gear/specs with equal or near equal ("bolstered") gear would definitely be a NO GO for me.
Yes pvp needs a lot of dev love but it has nothing to do with GS.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Which would be the classic "No, I love my gear, and I love being able to one-shot people", response. Yes, I've seen this before in SWTOR as well, specificially with bolster. I could go on as to why this logic is epic in phail, but that's not the point here.
Now, whether you like it or not, here are the facts:
(1) People can obtain gear to a certain amount without direct payment, but the reality is that there is huge variance in the rate
(2) Some people may be able to play more intensely, others might not have much time
(3) Therefore, it basically boils down to whether the time spent for getting equipment is adequate -- in relation to the amount and duration of grief they must suffer until they get at least a glimmer of hope of being competent.
Now, this may not have been such an obvious problem when the game began, and everyone was at the same starting line, but nowadays, we already have enough people with GS out through the wazoo, that they HAMSTER lightning from their HAMSTER everytime they just walk.
In any game, a constant flow of late joiners and newcomers are absolutely required to keep it healthy and going, especially in PvP. When these people are pressed into a situation that they might have to endure weeks and weeks of brutal punishment with no hope fighting back, well, good luck convincing them that "PvP is fun".
Like said, through the course of two decades of online gaming I've seen this happening eveyrwhere. In the end, only a few, handful, pitiful numbers of veterans with their gear so high that they'd crack the sky wide open when they yawn, are left.
They gather up around in PvP games, with nobody to fight against but themselves, the same bunch over and over again.. and then they start coming to the forums wondering and grieving, "What happened? Why don't people play PvP anymore?".
That's, what NW is coming to if this keeps on going.
The hard truth?
You can blame and ridicule people for being lazy all you like, but the reality is that people find it difficult to get their gear fast or adequate, and in average they stay about maybe 60~75% the gear level the top PvP players have. That's the majority of people speaking here, and that majority will VANISH from the game, if something is not done ... because, whether we like it or not, even the best of us PvPers need those average people in games to play along with, and play against with.
People don't mind losing so long as the game was fun and exciting. So, is PvP fun right now? Really?
That, is the question at hand... and the obvious answer is, "no". It's not fun. Players quit matches everytime. The game degenerates into a stupid node-trading score padding. Everybody's will is absolutely crushed when they meet a team with 3 GWFs that your team has no hope of taking down, not even 1 of them. Everytime they walk out of the spawn, a single~two shot to the back of your head from god knows where and you're dead.
Nobody puts up with punishment like that. No, the game's not fun.
If the game's not fun, the average people with trouble getting gear, they walk.
And when they vanish, so does PvP.
That's the hard fact here.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Personal opinion, that is why no f2p game that sells more than content and cosmetics can ever have a balanced pvp, and it's why such games need to live or die on their pve content. The financial setup for f2p games does not and can not support balanced pvp, it's impossible.
u might want to check up on riot and arenanet since both companies did this rather well.
It is all about having a competent team and most important to care about your product and here is where they fail! There are departments that just dont care about their work or they severely lack the knowledge and this shows in the product! Pvp is not the only thing that is bad in this game and unlike pvp they have easy fixes ...
It's possible. It's even been done.
You don't even need necessarily abolish gear difference like Guild War. SWTOR relishes a system called "Bolster" which alters not only the basic level stat, but also the gear stat to a certain standard, so people at the bottom of the gear acquisition are still boosted upto bare minimum of competent levels. Having better gear is still much more advantageous under this setup, but at least the underdogs still have an albeit slight chance to win, and much better chance to enjoy the PvP content to the full -- despite probable loss.
Not like the "low gear? Die scrub" mentality spreading around the snobs of this game.
It's just a matter of how much effort the developers are trying to make. We'll just have to see what module3 brings.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Game1: Fought 2:04, enemy playere quit, ended up score-padding node swapping.
Game2: Fought 1:04, friendly quit, enemies were having a ball ganking, everyone quit. Game lasted 3 minutes.
Game3: Fought 19:01, was a good game, almost evenly matched.
Game4: Fought 0:53, friendly quit after a rage tantrum, everyone quit
Game5: Fought 6:44, enemy quit, enemy team quit eventually, game lasted 9 minutes.
Game6: Fought 1:12, friendly quit, everyone quit, game lasted 1:47
Game7: Fought 4:11, friendly quit, everyone quit, game lasted 7:02
Game8: Fought 0:44, enemy quit, enemy team quit eventually, game lasted 6 minutes.
...
Wow... I mean, just, wow... the only thing that keeps me queuing would be that NW at least has a very intuitive and fun combat systemwise... and just hopes that if I'm lucky, I'll actually be able to fight something and have fun.
When something like this is happening, no matter how much one tries to defend something, there's something wrong.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
assuming that the publisher or the designers don't care about their work or lack knowledge is a pretty lazy way of thinking. unless you have some insider information that no one else has, this is just speculation.
pvp does need work for sure. and i'm sure there have been people that have left the game temporarily or permanently. but to claim that this is all because of pvp's shortcomings... this is nothing but speculative. since this is a f2p game, that means anyone can download it and play it for free and if they like it, great. if they don't, then they'll probably not stay. just from reading the forums, i can tell you there's a lot more reasons of why people might leave. not to mention a person that isn't happy with a service is 10 times more likely to be vocal about it. so it's a safe assumption to say that people have stopped playing. but assigning specific reasons and percentages is impossible to get an accurate spread on unless you work for PWE.
here's a hard fact about power in the game. it's possible to spend money to get good gear quickly. it's also possible to rush yourself through some of the campaigns. and that fact may deter some people because they don't want to put in the time investment like some of us have to acquire the gear and the experience. but those are your options. and it's pretty clear to me that part of the reason why most if not all of the BoP changes were implemented was to force players to EARN gear instead of just buying it. before those changes were made, T2 gear could be bought for cheap on the AH. now, not so much. crafted BiS weapon sets can't be bought or sold. and if that's a deal breaker for some players, so be it.
but this also is not and has never claimed to be a pvp centric title. no one has the financial data to prove that pvp is what brings the big bucks in. how could that be the case if the current state of pvp leaves players wanting?
personally, i'm looking forward to whatever pvp offerings are coming in the next module. their success or failure won't deter me as a part of the player base either way.
i'll give you a few examples: first is the exploit on VT at last boss, a high priority bug with and easy fix that took 3 weeks to get a fix... second that is fresh in my mind is the lathander artifact with an easy fix to make it a boe or at least a boa but it is still bop even tho alot of feedback was given to the subject which lead to the fix on seldarine while lathander wasnt... sloppy. This list is long in things half done without a clear direction.
Have you played SCA? nice idea i agree... after 40 runs it only becomes a frustrating experience... is a sloppy job, part is because of RNG and a heavy favoring towards combat. One of the bosses is so heavily on combat that you can fail even 10 times in a row due to rng. Point being that it takes no skill.. it only takes luck and that leads to being frustrating. I wonder how many runs do they think an average player is willing to do before giving up?... what is your number? Carrot on a stick? yeah but without any carrot...
Companion prices and upgrades? God who did that ?! Every product has a life... and customers have an average sum they are willing to spend. Looking at gaming industry it seems to be around 60$/E.. check out the prices on those and the fact that they arent even account wide. Would i ever put my money into that? hell no... (this is a long subject which i rly dont want to go in depth, but is one of the reason i;m suspecting a severe lack of knowledge in that department)
New refinement system again half done.. good idea poor implementation with an easy fix...
On the other note... look at how well the combat system is done and how nice is the world (all the graphics and animations) and tell me you would not wish the rest of the game to be at the same level...
unless you yourself have worked on this project or have insider information that proves that what the end user is seeing is the result of poor workmanship or the lack of knowledge, experience or wherever you assume the problems lie with in-game issues, then all you've done is illustrated the point: it's all speculative.
Well it is pointless to debate with someone who believes that to disagree with them one MUST have x point of view. But for the sake of anyone else reading:
If it takes 80 logged hours (of competent NWO time) to get bis, it takes 80 hours. Some people will do that in a WEEK, others who are more casual (like me) will have it done over the course of a month or so. I always had some nerd rage at those who do it in a week but each decides their own priority in life and if a persons priority is to be uber gamer in x mmo, so be it, who am I to cry for equality? Who are you to say things should be equal regardless of the amount of time and effort a person puts into a thing? You want that 69 mustang running and looking new, if you have the money and lack the talent/commitment to work on it yourself, you'll just pay for it. If fixing cars is your craft and hobby, you'll look forward to clocking out of work at the end of every day to come home and put more love into your project. Why should someone who lacks that dedication get the same result just because it fits some biased concept of fairness?
Really the colors? It boils down to what you enjoy doing and if you enjoy NWO you will put the dedication into getting the right gear/making an adequate toon. If a game can even make a person suffer, they need to rethink what they are doing with their time.
You have an entire line of causality based entirely on the predicate of gearscore. Much of what you are saying is true (empty nest lonely vets syndrome, and so on). But those truths are the product of multiple synergistic factors, GS being only one, and as I am demonstrating, a minor one.
I still just don't get how it is so hard for people to get gear. Seriously. Also you are mixing some forum post data in with some subjective personal experience to come to a conclusion that is essentially hyperbolic. Ranked matches in brackets based on overall wins and losses and problem solved. If GS REALLY IS that much of factor in wins/losses then low bracket players would never even have a single match against high GS players because they would fall in different brackets. Instead they would just have fun competitive matches against other players who have invested equally little time and thought into their builds.
Jugger Conq GF
....
What a waste of time.
I'm not going to pay 300 zen to respec for PvP. They really need to allow you to have 2 specs that can be swapped.