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New player assessment of PvP and end game
dreginkt
Member Posts: 5 Arc User
Hello all and prepare for wall of text,
I'm just going to share my thoughts of the game now that I am 60. I hit 60 yesterday and starting playing a week before the latest patch came out. I'm more of a PvP oriented player so I will be focusing on that. Your wisdom/2 cents are welcome.
I used to be a hard core Dark Age of Camelot player but I spent several years playing WoW where I was the GM of a raiding guild capable of fielding 2 25 man raids on a single evening. I've played a few other games such as Shadowbane, SWG, SWToR, GW2, ect.
While leveling up the CW and HR I played several matches in PvP, or what I like to call the same exact 2 arenas set in a 5v5 standard every freaking time and pray 1 of your buddies doesn't drop because that's 20% of your team. While sub 60 the balance of the classes seemed generally fair. Every now and again you would get a "twink" character who had all the gear he could have for that level and out performed others but it was limited by the players level. Pre-mades were far less common and people generally played as mostly pugs which allowed for a more chaotic yet balanced setting.
Now that I hit 60 2 days ago, I am ready to leave the leveling PvP groups. So naturally I'm ready to get owned by players who have been at it over the course of a few months. I pick up all 60 gear to go with the handful of Mulhorand epics I have and ensure I have level 4 or better enchants. I played about 30 matches. Out of the 30 matches I only won a handful which I had expected since I did not run with a guild group and was only a 10k HR.
The issues I noticed and I'd like to point out (forgive me if there are threads saying the same thing):
1) It's still the same 2 arenas at lvl 60, seriously? Repetitive arenas did work in WoW but WoW had several rewards systems, point systems, competitive titles, seasons, and all the other things to keep competitive players fully engaged and interested in the system they put out. WoW was no DAoC by any means as a DAoC "realm points" to buy realm abilities but it had something more than Neverwinter has.
2) Reward system: As I began on issue 1 there isn't an effective reward system. You get some points to buy some gear that apparently makes me lose all my armor pen for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like regeneration but slightly improves my character score which is all players care about when trying to join their dungeon group. Not sure if I'm missing something here but please point it out if I am but the brutal gear isn't impressive what so ever and there is no follow on tier or other rewards outside of a few pieces of equipment, some pots and promo items. Seriously, where is the incentive to mash your face in the same 2 arenas?
3) Player base: This is the second most frustrating thing. A match just starts, someone dies and they just decide to leave the match. No penalty. When in a pug at 60, this happens at minimum 50% the time.
4) Size of the fights: 5v5 as the primary means of PvP is a horrible idea. This might be good for small competitions but without large scale PvP you will likely never expand your player base much beyond the DnD diehards that currently exist. Having the primary PvP on such a small scale will bore players very rapidly and also cause a lot of heartache. If someone goes LD or has to leave you just lost 20% of your team. Now if your primary PvP is 25v25 and you lose a person it will almost go unnoticed as it's just 4% and that can be easily overcome. I realize there are 25v25 pvp events but that is an event and is not used as the primary means, this must be expanded upon.
5) Great Weapon fighter: This class is the most disadvantaged and needs to be re-worked. What I am talking about is probably the single largest atrocity in this game. The class was miss labeled. It should not be Great Weapon Fighter, it needs to be called "God" or at least "Jesus." This classes ability to magically restore its health whenever it feels like it and survive 2 HRs spamming aimed shot 5... 6... 7.. times while fighting a GF who is being healed by a DC and still win is unrivaled and reminds me of a honey badger. In any case, you can leave the class the way it is but please correctly label the class name because GWF doesn't even come close to giving justice to its divine capability. On a more serious note, from what I have seen I am really impressed the healing capability this class has was not yet addressed because its DPS capability is so significant that it does not need a healing capability that outweighs having a DC strapped to your back.
6) Queues: So it repeatedly puts me in a dungeon that was finished by some other folks. Thanks but no thanks.
Recommendations:
1) Larger arenas allowing for groups of at least 20 v 20 as the primary PvP and can queue for it just as you do the current domination.
2) A reward system with gear that is competitive with the highest level of PvE equipment. Perhaps PvP goals such as having castles you can raid with NPC guards and players who aid it such as in DAoC and Guild Wars 2. Perhaps after a certain amount of matches or kills or points you can upgrade your abilities to do more damage, take more of a hit, heal for more, ect. Perhaps have titles that are tiered. Perhaps have... anything really more than what exists now. Looking for more ideas on this but right now it's a rock bottom system.
3) A penalty system for leaving matches. I was thinking of a desertion debuff like in WoW but I figured some folks in this community wouldn't mind something a bit harsher. Perhaps a "glory" penalty because what "glory" is there in desertion all your matches until you find one you like? Perhaps when you desert a match your next match will be -20% glory and stackable to -100% until matches are completed. Folks who go LD have 5 minutes to return of course.
4) Open world PvP with objectives. This open world PvP should feature multiple sides rather than just Side A v. Side B. Have at least three sides to make things more interesting. Players or guilds will make their allegiance to one side or another and cannot switch that allegiance for a certain period of time. As you expand on the game each side could have its own capitol city that they hang out in. Idk, Neverwinter is one, Underdark, Cormyr, Thay... ect.
Just my thoughts and comments. I realize I'm very new so I'm sure I missed some things or got some things incorrect but the goal is to get some feedback on if others feel similar and if there are any goals the devs have set to solving any of these "issues."
Lastly and most importantly- As a new player I am looking for a game to keep me occupied and to spend my money at. What development is in store to improve the end game PvP and PvE beyond its current, basic form?
I'm just going to share my thoughts of the game now that I am 60. I hit 60 yesterday and starting playing a week before the latest patch came out. I'm more of a PvP oriented player so I will be focusing on that. Your wisdom/2 cents are welcome.
I used to be a hard core Dark Age of Camelot player but I spent several years playing WoW where I was the GM of a raiding guild capable of fielding 2 25 man raids on a single evening. I've played a few other games such as Shadowbane, SWG, SWToR, GW2, ect.
While leveling up the CW and HR I played several matches in PvP, or what I like to call the same exact 2 arenas set in a 5v5 standard every freaking time and pray 1 of your buddies doesn't drop because that's 20% of your team. While sub 60 the balance of the classes seemed generally fair. Every now and again you would get a "twink" character who had all the gear he could have for that level and out performed others but it was limited by the players level. Pre-mades were far less common and people generally played as mostly pugs which allowed for a more chaotic yet balanced setting.
Now that I hit 60 2 days ago, I am ready to leave the leveling PvP groups. So naturally I'm ready to get owned by players who have been at it over the course of a few months. I pick up all 60 gear to go with the handful of Mulhorand epics I have and ensure I have level 4 or better enchants. I played about 30 matches. Out of the 30 matches I only won a handful which I had expected since I did not run with a guild group and was only a 10k HR.
The issues I noticed and I'd like to point out (forgive me if there are threads saying the same thing):
1) It's still the same 2 arenas at lvl 60, seriously? Repetitive arenas did work in WoW but WoW had several rewards systems, point systems, competitive titles, seasons, and all the other things to keep competitive players fully engaged and interested in the system they put out. WoW was no DAoC by any means as a DAoC "realm points" to buy realm abilities but it had something more than Neverwinter has.
2) Reward system: As I began on issue 1 there isn't an effective reward system. You get some points to buy some gear that apparently makes me lose all my armor pen for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like regeneration but slightly improves my character score which is all players care about when trying to join their dungeon group. Not sure if I'm missing something here but please point it out if I am but the brutal gear isn't impressive what so ever and there is no follow on tier or other rewards outside of a few pieces of equipment, some pots and promo items. Seriously, where is the incentive to mash your face in the same 2 arenas?
3) Player base: This is the second most frustrating thing. A match just starts, someone dies and they just decide to leave the match. No penalty. When in a pug at 60, this happens at minimum 50% the time.
4) Size of the fights: 5v5 as the primary means of PvP is a horrible idea. This might be good for small competitions but without large scale PvP you will likely never expand your player base much beyond the DnD diehards that currently exist. Having the primary PvP on such a small scale will bore players very rapidly and also cause a lot of heartache. If someone goes LD or has to leave you just lost 20% of your team. Now if your primary PvP is 25v25 and you lose a person it will almost go unnoticed as it's just 4% and that can be easily overcome. I realize there are 25v25 pvp events but that is an event and is not used as the primary means, this must be expanded upon.
5) Great Weapon fighter: This class is the most disadvantaged and needs to be re-worked. What I am talking about is probably the single largest atrocity in this game. The class was miss labeled. It should not be Great Weapon Fighter, it needs to be called "God" or at least "Jesus." This classes ability to magically restore its health whenever it feels like it and survive 2 HRs spamming aimed shot 5... 6... 7.. times while fighting a GF who is being healed by a DC and still win is unrivaled and reminds me of a honey badger. In any case, you can leave the class the way it is but please correctly label the class name because GWF doesn't even come close to giving justice to its divine capability. On a more serious note, from what I have seen I am really impressed the healing capability this class has was not yet addressed because its DPS capability is so significant that it does not need a healing capability that outweighs having a DC strapped to your back.
6) Queues: So it repeatedly puts me in a dungeon that was finished by some other folks. Thanks but no thanks.
Recommendations:
1) Larger arenas allowing for groups of at least 20 v 20 as the primary PvP and can queue for it just as you do the current domination.
2) A reward system with gear that is competitive with the highest level of PvE equipment. Perhaps PvP goals such as having castles you can raid with NPC guards and players who aid it such as in DAoC and Guild Wars 2. Perhaps after a certain amount of matches or kills or points you can upgrade your abilities to do more damage, take more of a hit, heal for more, ect. Perhaps have titles that are tiered. Perhaps have... anything really more than what exists now. Looking for more ideas on this but right now it's a rock bottom system.
3) A penalty system for leaving matches. I was thinking of a desertion debuff like in WoW but I figured some folks in this community wouldn't mind something a bit harsher. Perhaps a "glory" penalty because what "glory" is there in desertion all your matches until you find one you like? Perhaps when you desert a match your next match will be -20% glory and stackable to -100% until matches are completed. Folks who go LD have 5 minutes to return of course.
4) Open world PvP with objectives. This open world PvP should feature multiple sides rather than just Side A v. Side B. Have at least three sides to make things more interesting. Players or guilds will make their allegiance to one side or another and cannot switch that allegiance for a certain period of time. As you expand on the game each side could have its own capitol city that they hang out in. Idk, Neverwinter is one, Underdark, Cormyr, Thay... ect.
Just my thoughts and comments. I realize I'm very new so I'm sure I missed some things or got some things incorrect but the goal is to get some feedback on if others feel similar and if there are any goals the devs have set to solving any of these "issues."
Lastly and most importantly- As a new player I am looking for a game to keep me occupied and to spend my money at. What development is in store to improve the end game PvP and PvE beyond its current, basic form?
Post edited by dreginkt on
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Comments
I dont participate in PVP, it wouldn't be fair for me to comment on that, I'll let the experts take on that subject.
Branch Lead
All true. Problem is that that spec is good for some tanking duties in pve, you nerf it for pvp you neuter the class for pve. Just say no to nerfs, they're like drugs, and drugs are bad m'kay. This is a bug should be fixed in today's upcoming patch 12/19/13
Please no. Open world pvp is just an excuse for people to legally grief each other.
I will only comment on two parts. The GWF if you change it for PvP you will effect how they play in PvE. If you weaken them for PvP that will make them even less desirable in PvE, and they already have been labelled virtually useless in PvE. Open world PvP is a bad idea. There are a great number of players here that do not PvP, and would leave if that were to implemented. Player retention is an issue currently, let's not make that even worse. Try Gauntylgrim, it is somewhat close to what you would like to see.
Generally good post, but seems you don't fully understand game mechanics yet. Regeneration is the top PvP stat. You're saying it's useless, but than wonders how GWF heals that fast. It's regeneration. The point of having high regen on GWF is very high health pool plus temp HP from unstoppable that allow you to regen HP while blocking incoming damage. But, my TR has 1250 regeneration, and I can tank and kite 3 people as well, while killing them. Regen DC is immortal. Regen is stupidly overpowered PvP stat. Try it on your HR, you'll be surprised how good it is.
I have read this 100s of times, and its just incorrect. I just can't believe how many players are clueless about CW's "Entangling Force" power.
Would it shock you to know that this power works *1* way in PvE, and *A DIFFERENT WAY* in PvP?
Yes, the difference is only duration, but that's irrelevant. Only the fact that it works differently matters. Saying you can't nerf GWF in PvP is, therefore, utterly false.
What are you talking about? There is Unstoppable Recovery but that's only 5% of the max HP.
Even the above wish is optimistic, but I really hope they would include also other forms of PvP like capture the flag etc.
This.
When 2-3 people leave the match (even if THEY get a penalty), I don't want to be forced to stay at that point, nor given the same penalty if I then leave too!
Again I have to bring up GF... GF is just a joke at this stage if you really are a player that have a good knowledge to all classes and this game. GF seriously need a buff.
I just dump my gear into my DC and guess what, my at-will does as much dmg as my GF does lol, and I have higher crit chance than my GF and the dc can tank 2-3 people as long as you have AS up and dodge ****.... you can argue I can't prone things as a GF, but the thing is in MOD 2 everyone come in PVP with like 10 % regen, good luck killing one even if u can prone as GF. If you say I go full burst I run p.vorpal well good luck getting focus and die before you can do anything.
You guys are misunderstanding what the OP means about open world. He is talking more of a DAoC, WAR, GW2 kind of RvR thing, not what is usually called open world, where it is a server wide gank fest in the PvE areas.
As for PvP- people always has a problem doing things that they arent good at... there is a portion of people that has problems with the current pvp system and there is a portion of people that roll with it and found a way to master it...
If that's true it's a failure of communication on his part. What he asked for is in my mind a server wide gank fest in PvE areas still.
Gear score, length of play at level 60, class, PVE progression data should all come into play as much as possible before mixing the teams.