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The GWF/CW PVP/PVE issue
overddrive
Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
I love this game. I spend way too much time and money on it. Against tv shows, movies, console games, internet adult material (just being honest), NWO wins out against all for my disposable time.
Players please take into consideration that it is very obvious that the devs are constantly tweaking the classes and the game its self to achieve a higher degree of class parity towards the end goal of an increasingly enjoyable gaming experience. THAT MEANS, sometimes certain classes are slightly OP in certain contexts. Then next time those same classes will seem underpowered in different contexts. Please be happy they are obviously working on it. The game evolves. The classes evolve.
I won't respond to any posts that say anything about either class being OP. Want to talk about how to start off either class well, or maybe how to do well in pvp as a cw or how to do well in pve as a gwf lets do that. But no griping or qq'ing. A lot of these problems are player generated, so lets come up with some player solutions.
Players please take into consideration that it is very obvious that the devs are constantly tweaking the classes and the game its self to achieve a higher degree of class parity towards the end goal of an increasingly enjoyable gaming experience. THAT MEANS, sometimes certain classes are slightly OP in certain contexts. Then next time those same classes will seem underpowered in different contexts. Please be happy they are obviously working on it. The game evolves. The classes evolve.
I won't respond to any posts that say anything about either class being OP. Want to talk about how to start off either class well, or maybe how to do well in pvp as a cw or how to do well in pve as a gwf lets do that. But no griping or qq'ing. A lot of these problems are player generated, so lets come up with some player solutions.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
Jugger Conq GF
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Jugger Conq GF
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Post edited by overddrive on
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I am hardly one to say 'learn to play' as I am still learning to play. I'm not one of the top ends, heck, I don't have anything over r5s and the only t-anything gear I got is vendor PVP stuff.
Gear makes a character. it's a good 25% of the class. Skills and current interactions of those skills between classes is the other 25%. The other half of the entire play? Player use. Steamroller (as an example of one of the well known fighters) is known because he is *good*. It's not just the gear, it's not just the class. The player excels at what he does.
I personally had a 1 on 1 match with one of the higher end GWFs. My pvp t1 r5s scrub GWF didn't stand a chance. I think the further I got him down, at any given point in time, was half. I used the same skills, I had the same pattern. They said that I was solid for skill. I had that half of it (half health, half the class skill, eh? eh? anyone? ... anyways) so I was happy with that. What I had to do was get the gear to put me up there. If I had focused on gear for the GWF I could of been there too...
.... I just happen to start playing the HR instead.
The PvP thing is like trying to hit a constantly moving target. Fix one thing, something else crops up. It's the nature of the beast, especially when you have a player base that is always looking to exploit things, the cheesiest strats etc etc.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?551661-Dev-freedback-Gwf-tab-%28unstoppable%29-balance
the only downside would be for pve gwf under the protection of dc . But I imagine it's possible to make some arrangement .
For pve in general , I believe that the time for feats of the class need to be improved . We need to be at work within 3 seconds , cause inconvenience to many enemies that are thrown away or simply " run away " , creating an unpleasant experience.
About cw , much is speculated about the damage . If there is an imbalance today - I have not seen so far - is due to its " explosion " of immediate harm that cleans the weaker enemies . But this is part of the dynamic of the class.
If there is a problem of cw would be a certain amount of functions . He himself , alone, is no better than any other class . But there is a great interaction between different cw . The only way to limit this would be if the enemies had a period of time to effect control suffer the same technique . Resistance,cumulative, to effect and / or damage. I no have idea if it is possible to program it. but promote mixed partys.
I had a bit of a ... rant ... in another thread, but essentially Dual Spec on everything in game would, resolve all of these issues.
You could happily increase/decrease cool down timers, damage types, AoE timers for one without affecting the other ... Problem Solved!
How many people have spent a fortune, in time and $$$, on Soulforged Enchants, that are pretty much useless for PvE, as you get resurrected on death with no penalty (except maybe a small easily remedied or ignored injury) Not to mention you probably don't WANT to be resurrected right back in the middle of the mob of Elites that just squished you!
If PvE and PvP were separated with a Dual Spec system, the Devs could actually make Tranquil or Terror for instance or any of the other 'less desirable' enchants, useful.
And then perhaps they wouldn't have to make HR's vines all but useless or lower the damage/increase the charge time of Split Shot, or increase the cool down of a DC's Astral Shield or lower the amount of healing given, or any number of 100's of supposed "imbalances' that people complain about every day in hundreds of threads on these forums all to do with ... PvP.
I wouldnt say you need "boss-baller skills" or what ever you kids say these days, just a understanding of your characters skills. I would go as far as to say the "skill" is knowing how to "stack" stat for your character based off how you choose to play it. That comes from the almost endless variety of armor choices and defense or offense enchantment slots that they may have and which enchants and power size you decide to go with.
As for PvP, i see PvP as a game within a game. Imagine if the game didnt have PvP. you spent MONTHS working on your character and got it all kinds of cool stuff and always wondered how you would do against another character instead of a NPC... Try to think of it in those terms.
I think others would like to take PvP to a whole other level but if we do that then i say we just make a PvP dedicated server where its open PvP anywhere in the world.
*hint hint to neverwinter...*
I could only imagine how much money that would make NW if everyone was paying to be the best or even survive anywhere in a open world PvP situation like that....
CW are never PVP king if you have played this game long enough, neither is DC, nor will they be in the future as well.
Way to miss the point.
You can be unkillable in 1 v 1 or even a 2 v 1 if you are a ungodly DC that just dodge every **** that is on your face.
But you will never kill anyone above average 1 v 1. How does that make DC king?
A easy comparison would be GWF, tank as hard as you do if not better, most of the case: better.
Hit much harder than you with a p.vorpal, IBS on a GF can hit up to 13k when crit.
Yeah you can be troll DC but you can never be as disruptive as some other class that is a difference.
People prefer CW more than anyother class to do dungeons (beside the ussual 1 TR/HR/GF/GWF and 1 DC) because dungeons are all about controling tons of mobs. GWF can do more dmg than CW's and i can assure u that but they dont have powers like steal time or singularity (which for me is the most OP/best spell in this game no matter what u say to me). Experient players want control, not damage.
That said, what should be done is definly low the dmg of CW and i mean a serious nerf.... I know i know, it will pissoff thousands of players but must be done, by having a "controled" way to do dungeons it wont be necessary faster. With a GWF and other aoe dmg class/builds can be harder/confuse (without much control) but can became faster runs.... Just ur choice, but again cryptic will have to drop mobs numbers, its not just droping CW dmg... or give some kind of control powers to GF and GWF like a taunt ability to push all mobs arround him to a certain area or stun a good amount of them, that kind of control.
Take CN as example, is the most incredible unfair i have ever see in a game, when 2-3 classes are simply unable to do the end game dungeon.... Unless u have a good guild or friend u will never finish CN playing as GF/GWF/HR.... well at least in the general population.
Many things still must be done but i think cryptic have a great engine to work with.
Scenario 1: cw A used the singularity. If cw b using the singularity of the same group of enemies, the control effect does not occur. And since the cw A makes using singularity against the same group, this also will not work, because the effectiveness of the daily was broken by cw B. The same goes for certain encounters / Dailys critical of other classes.
Scenario B: cw A used the singularity. During the daily effec, gwf A gains 10% damage with ibs. The gwf A triggered the slam, the cw A gain 10% damage with avalanche. This type of interaction, hypothetical, should serve to present antagonistic classes in their respective functions. As the ranger / rogue damage to single, the cw / gf for control, etc..
this could be bad for some pugs that would promote kicks, but how this would be done for the sake of diversity and not to have 2/3 of the same class in the group - as occurs since the beta - then it seems to me a small price to pay.
Never a player, individually, need to know what is more to see your character becoming useless from day to night.
This has been a long discussed problem on the "other MMO". Immortal healers might not kill anybody, but can hold a node indefinitely while cavalry comes.
Thus, a single player can troll 2-3 enemies, making a noticeable harm in pvp balance.
I wouldn't say ANY class isn't capable of doing exactly what the GWF and CW do in their respective areas. You can complete any t2 dungeon with all gwf's, and you can do perfectly fine with good CW's in your arena rotation.
And lets not forget that, while arena PVP isn't too friendly to CW's, GG PvP is perfect for them.
No, it's their perspective environments. Take CW's. They are the king of PvE, not because of any particular power or stat combination (after the high vizier fix, that is), but because dungeon design is a wide open affair (read, no tight spaces to make melee valuable) with lots of mobs (read, AOE is more powerful) and limited AI design (read, no magic-immune mobs, no ranged-focused adds, everything is related to threat). And since CW's can apply that damage to large areas from range, and don't have to worry so much about defending themselves after they reach a certain level of skill and gear ...
GWF's are in the same boat. Smaller pvp zones with limited team amounts and you have to stand on an objective to prevent the enemy from taking it. And the GWF is as good a tank as any GF, especially against multiple opponents. Since being good at GWF requires a player to play actively and aggressively, watching his health bar and timing unstoppable and heals to keep on his feet, the entire class seems to suit PvP players far more than the more laid back and casual PvE crowd.
Then there's gear synergy. GWF gear is diverse and synergizes well with our two main paragon feature paths. Same for CW. Certain other classes, like GF, don't have that advantage of having really diverse and capable gear choices.
All in all, I wouldn't recommend nerfing the classes. I would recommend making some additions to the game itself. Dungeons with tight corners and narrow hallways with limited line of sight. Bosses that were immune to magic damage, but not control or debuffs. Adds that focused on taking out ranged attackers over melee fighters.
And in PvP, something other than holding an objective. Sure, sentinel GWF's are the king of staying alive ... but without tenes (which have themselves been reduced in effectiveness, however slightly), they cannot apply DPS in any great quantities. Deathmatch would drop a GWF that isn't a destroyer down more than a few notches.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Seriously, the best post I've read on this subject for a while ... Kudos to you ...
1v1 is not always about killing the other. In PvP situations, 1v1 or 1v2 and staying alive as a DC means that when help arrives you'll get the kill.
Also the best node holders in the game can't cap from a DC. So...there's how a good DC can carry an entire team.