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Idea: Bonus for group setups with 5 different classes

eisrabe1902eisrabe1902 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 31
edited December 2013 in PvE Discussion
The entire LFG-chat is flooded with requests for 2, 3 or even 4 CW and one DC for Valindras Towers - most likely the exploit way. Due to the exploit for ranged classes, the dungeon as a whole is more or less exclusive to those.

And in the monkey-see-monkey-do way it infects (again) the other dungeons as well: People just want as much CW possible in their groups along with a DC, because its so fancy and so much faster and with the immense power of astral shield nobody dies anyways or whatever.

Here is my idea:
Reward groups that run dungeons in a setup of 5 diffrent classes.


- It would make it so much easier to find groups as a GWF/GF/TR/(Ranger?)
- CW would stop cannibalising all other damage dealer classes if the bonus reward was worth it
- At the current situation it would actually enable diversity in setups
- It's harder to exploit dungeons without just indecently accumulating the currently favored exploit-capable class as it happens/happened in Malabog's, Valindra's and Castle Never...
Post edited by eisrabe1902 on

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    arcmoon99arcmoon99 Member Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I really like this idea but, it would need more tinkering. It shouldn't be included in PvP because the Pugging system pairs up two of the same classes a lot of times.
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    michaelpoynermichaelpoyner Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 75
    edited December 2013
    It's been like this for a long time now before VT came out. I prefer to play with 3 cw's and TR because my cleric keeps them alive and we get threw every single dungeon way faster with their DPS- we get threw, FH,MC,MD,Idris in a breeze. And concerning the VT issue.
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    ladymythosladymythos Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 637 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    Who invited Mr Negative? :p I like the idea extra bonuses for all-unique groups. But why stop there? What if we also had bonuses for groups where everyone is the same? So if everyone's a TR, you get a bonus. If everyone's a DC, you get a bonus, and so on. :) It doesn't even have to be a big bonus. Maybe an achivement? (yes, this game has them. How many "I reached lvl 60 in three days" are aware of this?)
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    tornnomartornnomar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 396 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    To be quite honest and blunt, no exploiters are going to give a flying FooFoo about a 'diversity bonus.' They are still going to take the easier, faster route.

    Something like a bonus would have to be significant. So much so that it would make people give the the thought serious consideration, like blue marks maybe?

    Or maybe the exploits could just be closed? Its not like they're a secret or anything.
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    haelrahaelra Member Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I've been giving this problem some thought, too. My suggestion hasn't gelled quite enough to really lay out details as a recommendation, but I think well enough to offer the gist of it.

    I would not offer a rewards bonus for diversity, I would offer a diversity power buff. It would go something like this, each member of the party would receive a small buff from each other member of the party who wasn't their class, or a class they'd already received a buff from.

    For each other party member who was the same class, they'd receive a small debuff. In any party where all the members were different classes, everyone would be buffing everyone else. They'd be small, but the sum total would be significant. In a party where everyone, or most everyone, was the same class, there'd be a lot more small debuffs than buffs.

    For example, let's say there was a TR, two CW's, a GF, and a DC on a party. The TR would receive a buff from a CW, from a GF, and from a DC. Each CW would receive a buff from a TR, a GF, and a DC. The GF would receive a buff from a TR, from a CW, and from a DC. The DC would receive a buff from a TR, a CW, and a GF. Each CW would also receive a debuff from the other CW. So, that's everyone on the team receiving three small buffs and the two CW's are slightly debuffed. No biggie, so far. Now, add one more CW, say, to replace the GF. Now everyone's only getting two buffs, and now each of the three CW's in being debuffed twice from the other CWs. Go further, and replace the TR with yet another CW. Everyone's only getting one buff, and all four CW's are being debuffed three times each. Now, go back to the original exampe, and swap out one of the two CW's for a GWF. Now everyone's getting four buffs instead of just three, and no one's getting any debuffs.

    Conceptually, each class would offer a buff that was consistent with their class theme; e.g., having a DC would give everyone more regen. Or maybe each class was buffed according to their class role; a DC's healing power was increased for every unique other class on the team. Or maybe a combination. Then, the debuff from duplicate classes would be designed to make that class less useful to double, triple, or etc. For instance, a CW might debuff the recovery of another CW, or reduce their control duration, or even their power. Four CW's on one team would be debuffing each other a lot. The debuff wouldn't be huge at first, so that just doubling up one member's class wouldn't ruin it, but enough so they'd feel it. And the buff would be big enough so that you'd want to have that diverse group, not because you'd get an extra bauble at the end, but because a diverse team, decently geared, knowing their roles and skills, working together, would feel a definite advantage in hard content. At times, even enough to absolutely crush it.

    Like I said, I haven't worked out details, and the concept would succeed or fail on the basis of whether those buffs and debuffs made sense, were scaled right, and complemented natural class roles.
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    devilshark5devilshark5 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    This idea has promise!
    California Sunshine
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    todesfaelletodesfaelle Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I like this idea a lot and have been playing with a similar idea.

    Since we typically get blue/T1 drops from our T2 dungeons when in delves, I've been imagining that... what if we get a buff to our chance to get T2 gear and other good loot per different class in the party? A party with just 1 - 3 types of classes will have no change for their drop rate, but a party with 4 types of classes will start seeing a 20% increase in their chances for good loot. A party of 5 varying classes will see a whopping 40% increase for better chances of getting the loot they want.

    People usually bring 3 CW's in one party because it makes dungeons very easy to complete. The horrendous drop rates in this game is promoting this behavior. If taking in more types of classes eliminates the factor of bad drop rates, we should see more people building varying types of parties with smarter setups based on each other's builds, and will give players an incentive to rethink their builds to one that benefits the party in its entirety and not just being a DPS beat stick.
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    devilshark5devilshark5 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I like this idea a lot and have been playing with a similar idea.

    Since we typically get blue/T1 drops from our T2 dungeons when in delves, I've been imagining that... what if we get a buff to our chance to get T2 gear and other good loot per different class in the party? A party with just 1 - 3 types of classes will have no change for their drop rate, but a party with 4 types of classes will start seeing a 20% increase in their chances for good loot. A party of 5 varying classes will see a whopping 40% increase for better chances of getting the loot they want.

    People usually bring 3 CW's in one party because it makes dungeons very easy to complete. The horrendous drop rates in this game is promoting this behavior. If taking in more types of classes eliminates the factor of bad drop rates, we should see more people building varying types of parties with smarter setups based on each other's builds, and will give players an incentive to rethink their builds to one that benefits the party in its entirety and not just being a DPS beat stick.

    In the words of my former teenage cousin...

    "LOVE IT!"
    California Sunshine
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    revovlerjesus1revovlerjesus1 Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    or just make it imposible for more then 2 of the same class to enter a dungoen.. Problem solved
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    chaoscourtesanchaoscourtesan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    OP- I think it is a great idea. It needn't be any great reward.. some token that can be accumulated to get something worthwhile later maybe, even if it's just a title. (Although obviously the more enticing the reward, the more likely to draw interest it would be.)
    Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
    Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    OP- I think it is a great idea. It needn't be any great reward.. some token that can be accumulated to get something worthwhile later maybe, even if it's just a title. (Although obviously the more enticing the reward, the more likely to draw interest it would be.)

    Let's say they come up with a bonus. There are two outcomes.

    1. Reward bonus is trivial. Everyone ignores it. There is much forum tooth gnashing.

    2. Reward bonus is great. People figure out the new optimal party for speed clearing. Probably gwf,tr,dc,cw,hr leaving gf's out in the cold. There is much forum tooth gnashing from gf players.

    I don't see either outcome being all that great.

    A better solution would be to fix exploits and then buff tank builds for pve (while somehow not buffing them in pvp, not sure how) Then make the bosses hit like trucks that only tanks can survive, and add more mechanics that promote diversity.

    CW's are in a good spot no real need to change

    HR is great with a CW in the party so that they can unload.

    TR is great single target but with so much being aoe they're only in an ok situation. I'd recommend ramping in dungeon traps up to eleven to make them into the great place that CW's are in.

    GWF and GF need maybe a little bit more tanking buffs with the point being that the bosses are going to be buffed to one shot any non-tank that gets hit by a melee strike from them.

    DC's are like CW's I think they're in pretty good shape as they make things run smooth.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Actually I just thought of a mechanic that might work to make tanks more needed. Give tanks that take the iron vanguard paragon(the tanking paragon) 100% crit immunity in pve. To do this separate crit chance into mcrit (monster crit) and (player crit) with the crit immunity only effecting mcrit. No change then happens in pvp. Now to make the bosses nasty to non-tanks, their non-aoe attacks get a huge buff to crit severity in high level dungeons say maybe multiply current by 50.

    Tanking is now absolutely needed, and this will help with dungeon party makeup diversity.
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    alandoril1alandoril1 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    All good ideas but the problem with dungeons is their total reliance on mob spam to make things "challenging." What the devs haven't cottoned on to yet, or they refuse to understand, is that more mobs and add spawns just make things tedious, hence why people take multiple CWs. They're the only glass that can efficiently deal with the ridiculous numbers of mobs, in terms of both CC utility and damage.
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    xgrandz02xgrandz02 Member Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    People usually bring 3 CW's in one party because it makes dungeons very easy to complete.
    ---

    guys there's something u always forget,
    3CWs or More, What is the disadvantage of it?

    I',m a CW and i hate 3cws party or more,
    i don't like 2cws party also :/,

    why ?
    Simple reason:

    - NO loot chance!


    to get a specific CW-Item (like the dread armor)

    2CWs= 50% chance / 3CWS= u can forget it / 4CWs= Impossible,waste time.

    --

    example:
    if u are a DC or TR/GWF mostly alone in team,
    they have = 100% Chance to get their item.

    the only ones who really have it good, are DCs.
    they get their things certainly.100%



    that is not only positive to have 3Cws in team,
    we are fast but we get nothing in return."

    please noted before u thinking, CWs it's just fast and good. etc.
    <::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
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    eisrabe1902eisrabe1902 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 31
    edited December 2013
    As i posted in another thread, the root of the problem is imho the overkill defense buff & heal of Astral Shield rendering every class an excellent tank - whoever gets the aggro then.

    I am aware that my idea of a 5-class-group bonus is just a workaround. But better an easy positive workaround than no change to the situation of excessive CW population in every second group gathered.
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    pochemoanepochemoane Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    As i posted in another thread, the root of the problem is imho the overkill defense buff & heal of Astral Shield rendering every class an excellent tank - whoever gets the aggro then.

    I am aware that my idea of a 5-class-group bonus is just a workaround. But better an easy positive workaround than no change to the situation of excessive CW population in every second group gathered.

    i think you are barking at the wrong tree here. tr's always move around to get combat advantage, a cw with all aggro on him will never sit still in your circle and lets be honest that unless you enforce it, you rarely can take aggro from a good cw. gwf's don't really care because they go unstoppable and even dc's get out of it for a better position. rangers will never be in the circle as they run around a lot to make good use of their powers.

    i played a game before that used party bonuses depending on composition. an example for a 1 of each class bonus would be +1 to all ability scores, 3% dmg mitigation/deflect/crit chance, 10% crit severity. or for getting 2 of each class: 2 cw's - 10% cooldown reduction, +5% aoe dmg or 2 gf's +1000 hp, 5% dmg mitigation.
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    mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I like this idea a lot and have been playing with a similar idea.

    Since we typically get blue/T1 drops from our T2 dungeons when in delves, I've been imagining that... what if we get a buff to our chance to get T2 gear and other good loot per different class in the party? A party with just 1 - 3 types of classes will have no change for their drop rate, but a party with 4 types of classes will start seeing a 20% increase in their chances for good loot. A party of 5 varying classes will see a whopping 40% increase for better chances of getting the loot they want.

    Oh that is a good idea - because it would be relevant for EVERY group not just the lesser geared ones. Even better combine both this and the idea of a buff for every member of the party of a different class and a small debuff for every party member of the same class.
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    bajornorbertbajornorbert Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    No sane gaming company would penalize their player base for not making rainbow teams and i hope Cryptic doesn't do it either. The best thing they could do is to fix the dungeons & add more of them without a bunch of new exploits. Think about what would happen to a raid party, if they add raids in the future. You'd be doing raids with 5 rainbow parties just because if you don't you'll get a debuff, that's insane. I agree that the current situation is not the best, but anyone can get into a party no matter what class you are, esp if you know how to play.
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    angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    It was already like this (somewhat) - PUG system would try to drop one of each class into a group. But since GWFs and GFs were then booted and too few were playing DC the queue times were LOOOONG.

    And people biatched-aboutit. They shouted from the rooftops, great halls and towers: "Queue times are took faking looooong, Cryptic FIXITORELSE!"

    And behold: The problem was then fixed by the GameGods and all was good.

    Until the new system made it easier to boot GWF's and GFs as before, but more efficiently, so now the GWF's and GF's cry out loud from the rooftops, great halls and towers: "Here ye great GameGods for Yea be whoa are US! FIXITORELSE!"

    And as such the world turns, and turns, and turns, and tur.....

    Seriously: which irritation would you prefer: the longer wait times for queues or the loose PUG compositions? because the tech required for a PUG to be analyzed after-the-fact just to decide if some kind of bonus would be given (I suspect) would be so low on the to-do list I would't hold my breath to see it happen.

    It's great idea, but I just don;t think it's the answer. I'm sure the Great GameGods will come-up with an idea to help alleviate this problem eventually, and I do agree: it is a problem.
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    eisrabe1902eisrabe1902 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 31
    edited December 2013
    Playing in groups created by what you call PUG system is not part of the TO's PvE game experience and therefor I have no opinion on that. If you use such a system you already agreed a big compromise and I don't see much foundation for deep requests regarding those groups quality. My idea is supposed to help the non-popular classes finding groups on the currently broken "free market".
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    rabbinicusrabbinicus Member Posts: 1,822 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    ladymythos wrote: »
    Who invited Mr Negative? :p I like the idea extra bonuses for all-unique groups. But why stop there? What if we also had bonuses for groups where everyone is the same? So if everyone's a TR, you get a bonus. If everyone's a DC, you get a bonus, and so on. :) It doesn't even have to be a big bonus. Maybe an achivement? (yes, this game has them. How many "I reached lvl 60 in three days" are aware of this?)

    Love that idea.
    5 TR's = stealth duration/damage bonus
    5 GF's = DR bonus
    5 GWF's = Deflect bonus
    5 CW's = Control bonus
    5 DC's = Cooldown bonus
    5 HR's = Grasping Roots bonus
    The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.


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    eisrabe1902eisrabe1902 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 31
    edited December 2013
    rabbinicus wrote: »
    Love that idea.
    5 TR's = stealth duration/damage bonus
    5 GF's = DR bonus
    5 GWF's = Deflect bonus
    5 CW's = Control bonus
    5 DC's = Cooldown bonus
    5 HR's = Grasping Roots bonus

    I see no chance that this could improve the situation.
    It would only give advance to play everything as a dps race.

    it would be boring for clerics. it would be boring for guardian fighters.
    and for everyone else but the CW it would be just an inefficient gimmick.
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    rabbinicusrabbinicus Member Posts: 1,822 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I see no chance that this could improve the situation.
    It would only give advance to play everything as a dps race.

    it would be boring for clerics. it would be boring for guardian fighters.
    and for everyone else but the CW it would be just an inefficient gimmick.

    So feel free to make your own suggestion if you have one. I wrote that in an elevator so didn't put too much thought into it. :)
    The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.


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    pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    The entire LFG-chat is flooded with requests for 2, 3 or even 4 CW and one DC for Valindras Towers - most likely the exploit way. Due to the exploit for ranged classes, the dungeon as a whole is more or less exclusive to those.

    And in the monkey-see-monkey-do way it infects (again) the other dungeons as well: People just want as much CW possible in their groups along with a DC, because its so fancy and so much faster and with the immense power of astral shield nobody dies anyways or whatever.

    Here is my idea:
    Reward groups that run dungeons in a setup of 5 diffrent classes.


    - It would make it so much easier to find groups as a GWF/GF/TR/(Ranger?)
    - CW would stop cannibalising all other damage dealer classes if the bonus reward was worth it
    - At the current situation it would actually enable diversity in setups
    - It's harder to exploit dungeons without just indecently accumulating the currently favored exploit-capable class as it happens/happened in Malabog's, Valindra's and Castle Never...

    If we want proper group composition in PvE, the solution is quite simple:

    - make the fights REQUIRE a Tank, a Healer, Melee DPS and Ranged DPS.

    You go in without tanky G(W)F? Mobs hit you so hard you won't even be able to bypass trash groups.
    You go in without healer? Unavoidable damage will make the tank die in a few seconds, and then mobs will 1-shot the squishies
    You go in without melee DPS? Certain mobs will be resistant/immune to magic or ranged damage. You won't be able to bypass certain groups.
    You go in without ranged DPS? You will lack the AoE firepower and control and you will be overwhelmed.

    The issue here is not from the players. Players will always find the path of least resistance. The issue here is with BAD DUNGEON DESIGN.
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    zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    To be honest, I'd like to see something else: shared buffs.
    For example: I want to improve guard gf. Now the battle fury of gwf refil guard / stamina. I want to improve damage cw: the smoke bomb rogue cause reaction with fire spells.

    To that extent, all outstanding improvements would be given without thereby ran the risk of some kind be autonomous. And any imbalance in pvp would be given by a team very well thought out.

    ps: I love using roar toward against the Shard of the Endless Avalanche. I know that does not cause additional damage effect ... but could ...
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    ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Seriously: which irritation would you prefer: the longer wait times for queues or the loose PUG compositions? because the tech required for a PUG to be analyzed after-the-fact just to decide if some kind of bonus would be given (I suspect) would be so low on the to-do list I would't hold my breath to see it happen.

    It's great idea, but I just don;t think it's the answer. I'm sure the Great GameGods will come-up with an idea to help alleviate this problem eventually, and I do agree: it is a problem.

    I fixed it:

    2 queue buttons

    "Queue for optimal" - Will attempt to find the best possible arrangement class-wise for the bonus

    "Queue for quick" - Will just throw you in a random group with minimal requirements

    Everyone is happy now! Yay :P
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