NW should have guild ranking system

bossness · November 2013

as the title.

i have been thinking about this guild rank system for sometime now. i mean it'll make people play the game more competitive in pvp and such. i know all guild wants to be the top/number 1 guild in the game.

have sometime of perks for number one like
- Extra gold
-Extra glory for certain period of time
-goals to achieve in pvp
- have pvp match against guild (fight to be number one)
-make GG map more competitive with bragging rights of some sort

feel free to input some of your ideas. i think this honestly make ppl login more often.
if this is one in the wrong thread please move it to the right thread thanks.

ljz6 · November 2013

Before they implement something like this, I'd hope to see some PvP statistics in general. Amount of total kills, win/loss, and they could even have a ranking based on that first. Regardless, I think this is a way down the road.

bioshrike · November 2013

While I'm not against incentives to promote Guild Membership, we would need things like PvP tiers and a way to balance powers in PvP apart from how they behave in PvE, before something like this is implemented.

slezki · November 2013

Would be great, lategame pvp ain't as funny as it could be.

And what about ques for 5man groups?

ambisinisterr · November 2013

I really don't like Guild Rankings because it is impossible to rank them.

Just look at your post, you propose that the guilds should be ranked because of PvP while my guild generally doesn't touch the PvP with a ten foot pole.

Some people think in order to be the best guild that guild must have five hundred billion quadrillion players in it while I feel that guild should be labelled as the worst guild in the game and a guild with 25-50 should be labelled as best.

And then there are those who think that the best guild is those who do raid the quickest but there are plenty of other people who would prefer to simply take pride in getting it done and wouldn't go near a guild which made raids feel like a job.

So my point is, it's impossible to rank guilds as what everybody wants in a guild is different. Every time there's some sort of guild ranking system in a game the vast majority of players wouldn't even consider joining any of the 'best' guilds. Each person has their own likes, dislikes and playstyles in general and that determines what the best guild is for them.

Guild rankings, particularly those which reward such 'good' guilds, serve only to discourage people from joining, running or playing in guilds the way they prefer to and rather get encouraged to conform to this artificial and completely inaccurate ranking system.

bioshrike · November 2013

What they could do is to track various statistics related to activities done w/ guild members. For instance, there could be something that tracks how many successful times an epic dungeon was run with 2, 3, 4, or 5 members of the guild being in the same team. There could be an indicator of how many PvP battles consisted of 2 or more guild members being in the same team, what achievements were attained while there were 2 or more guild members on the same team, and so on...

ambisinisterr · November 2013

It still assumes that's the correct way to play.

Bioshrike, considering your work with the legitcommunity channel I'm amazed you don't see the issue with such a system right off the bat. Depending on what type of player you are you could run a dungeon and complete it in four hours and have the time of your life but hate every second of running the same dungeon in thirty minutes.

Some people may love doing speed runs but that's not for everybody so ranking based one 'how many' delves they have done would put an unfair advantage to the guild who does speed runs and has an extremely gear-centric selection process as opposed to another guild which focuses simply on trying their best and having a good personality.

Then let's not forget some of the most fun players can have with guilds is standing around doing nothing. I can't even begin to tell you how many times my guild has stood in PE trying to climb buildings or having water balloon fights.

What makes for a good guild varies from person to person. It's that simple.
There's no system which can accurately rate a guild because it would be like rating what is or is not fun. Look at film critics for example, they rate films based on their own views but those views by no means dictate good or bad. In fact if Roger Ebert rated a movie a five star movie I knew it was horrible and if he rated a movie a one star it was probably the best movie of the year to me.

But at least that's a person rating an enjoyment scale because then you can learn, like me, certain critics have reversed views from your own and make a judgement based on that. However when a computer rates there's no past experience which can be used to know whether it is an accurate rating or not.

The icing on the cake is that 'rankings' always go hand in hand with rewards and incentives.
Imagine if movies got paid based on Roger Ebert's rating. The movies I enjoy the most are the ones he enjoys the least but simply because Roger Ebert's ratings directly effects the payout to the production company the films I like are discouraged from being made and most films will always be made with intent of pleasing Roger Ebert. That's sort of like what guild rankings and rewards are to me.

You can't judge fun all inclusively.
Thus you can't reward 'better' guilds.
In short, there's no reason guilds should ever officially be ranked.

melodywhr · November 2013

with a minor percentage of the content thus far being of a competitive nature, i don't see where guild ranking would benefit anyone. there would first have to be a panel to decide what defines a top guild... and as ambisinisterr has stated, there are just too many differing opinions out there. if there was some way that guilds were in competition as in other MMOs, it would definitely make more sense... but to date, we just don't have any real reason for it. i would think people would want some kind of pvp ranking system in place before something like this was even considered. and we don't even have pvp ranking at this time. but pvp ranking would make sense because it's competitive.

nymeros · November 2013

Regarding PVP I'm agree that it's possible to establish a ranking system, but to create a competitive system in PVE implies the presence of "fixed" RAID instances.

ambisinisterr wrote: »

It still assumes that's the correct way to play.
Bioshrike, considering your work with the legitcommunity channel I'm amazed you don't see the issue with such a system right off the bat. Depending on what type of player you are you could run a dungeon and complete it in four hours and have the time of your life but hate every second of running the same dungeon in thirty minutes.

So the problem should be the lack of serious legit guilds?

ambisinisterr · November 2013

nymeros wrote: »

So the problem should be the lack of serious legit guilds?

Nope, it's that serious, legit guilds are not defined by how quickly or often they do dungeons.

There's a loud vocal minority in the MMO world, such as yourself, who seem to think that the elitist way is the only way to go. The vast majority of the MMO players, though, tell that crowd to accept that, like PvPers, no matter how much both groups assume the world revolves around their playstyle it doesn't.

If you ask the vast majority of MMO players what is most important in a guild it isn't about their ranking or some fictional sense of superiority. It is about community. And community is all about your own personality and playstyle.

Believe it or not it is a game. And games exist to be fun. Most people do platy to win, but unlike elitist players they also play just to have fun and don't turn the game into a job. Guild rankings to benefit the elitist persona only make the small minority of players happy: those who like to turn the game into a job.

And this is coming from an elitist player...

ikeepit3hunna · November 2013

what if there could be like leaderboards? for pvp and pve guilds/players. like the most dungeons completed for guilds and individuals. and most overall kills or best K/D for individuals and most matches won based on guild. would be kind of cool to see that

khimera906 · November 2013

I apologize for derailing your thread, I am not trying to do that, but I was thinking about something different.
Like the sections in the Class Forum (The Barracks, The Temple and so on), we could have some kind of faction for each class and have a separate ranking for players within the faction.
For example, as a Rogue you would be part of the Thieves Den and would get quests that would increase your prestige/renown/honor/infamy/whatever with the Thieves. Making donation in Treasure Items (which are useless right now) to your faction NPC would help increase you rank as well. Being in the top X players would give you a cool title and permanent/temporary rewards. Depending on the rank you have within your faction you would get access to harder quests with better rewards and get access to a faction store that has better merchandise for higher rank players. Donation to factions that you are not part of would also give you different benefits, like a buff. I am sure that the developers can come up with better stuff than I.
I don't care about PvP, but I think having a ranking for the best PvPers would be a good idea. There is no need to involve the guilds into such a ranking system.

nymeros · November 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Nope, it's that serious, legit guilds are not defined by how quickly or often they do dungeons.

There's a loud vocal minority in the MMO world, such as yourself, who seem to think that the elitist way is the only way to go. The vast majority of the MMO players, though, tell that crowd to accept that, like PvPers, no matter how much both groups assume the world revolves around their playstyle it doesn't.

If you ask the vast majority of MMO players what is most important in a guild it isn't about their ranking or some fictional sense of superiority. It is about community. And community is all about your own personality and playstyle.

Believe it or not it is a game. And games exist to be fun. Most people do platy to win, but unlike elitist players they also play just to have fun and don't turn the game into a job. Guild rankings to benefit the elitist persona only make the small minority of players happy: those who like to turn the game into a job.

And this is coming from an elitist player...

I'm completely agree with you.

I love mainly teamwork and I still think that a Raid istance system is the only solution to satisfy elitists and not rather than a ranking system.

Imo Legit way is the only way to go

xelliz · November 2013

I think it would be nice to implement alot of these features for the guilds own personal information.

azlanfox · November 2013

I value a guild based on the members willingness to help those that ask. For me, it is not about size, dungeon runs, PvP, or some virtual ranking. I would like to be able to receive and offer assistance from/to members to get through a quest, a dungeon, or an area in PvE. To gain experience in class strategy, dungeon encounters, and to operate above board, i.e. in a legit fashion.

I come from a heavy PvP background and have experienced life in top tier, high level, and low ranked guilds. In reality, I don't want to see that here. Structuring any type of guild-based ranking forces a limited viewpoint of how a guild should be onto a vast majority. The kind of baggage that comes with guild ranking, especially high incentive-based rankings, will turn a friendly mass of gamers into a very ugly mess of prejudiced, hate-mongering tools. For someone to win, someone has to lose.

cdnbison · November 2013

As Azlanfox points out, the Win-lose dynamic would win out very quickly vs. "I want to improve my guilds ranking". You can already see it at work in GG, as guilds and players start switching to the 'winning' side to reap the benefit. It's pretty much inevitable in a two-sided battle - once one side gets the momentum, it will continue until only the lazy, the hardcore and the uninformed remain on the 'losing side'.

Additionally, I think you'd see a lot less small guilds, as they get absorbed into "good" (higher ranking) guilds, in a move to improve their place rankings, with the associated personality conflicts that would surely take place.

Ambi had it right - you can't put a number on fun.

Now, if you want to see PvP ladders and rankings, knock yourself out. But to give rewards that have very tangible game effects (gold, glory etc) - that just asks for trouble. At best, I'd say a unique title (maybe an armor or weapon skin, too) for a ladder winner, with a secondary title for a small segment of runners-up. They'll still have a reward to show off, but it won't impact the gameplay.

sasheria · November 2013

Guild rank in general would only give "false sense" of info to new players. Why is Guild B rank 100 vs Guild A rank 1?
Plus, Guild rank shouldn't have rewards. This just further promote "one sided" play.

I do believe in guild PERK! where players can donate and make the guild grow. Granted that larger guild (or players with money) can buy perks or earn them faster, but I think it is a little better.

BUT even with perks, that could cause smaller guild to have a harder time to get recruits when a large guild unlock all the perks. (WoW have some of this issue)

So it could be unlock via refined and unrefine currency (have different area require different items to unlock) this will allow smaller guild to unlock some items faster.

bioshrike · November 2013

ambisinisterr, what I meant was a simple tracking/statistics type of setup for guilds - it wouldn't involve actual ranking in any form. What it would allow, for instance, is that a person looking for a guild could look at that guild's breakdown and see that they run a lot of epic dungeons, but hardly PvP - so if they're a PvPer, then that guild may not be for them. They could look and see that Guild A runs practically no T1s - and perhaps they need to ease into epic content, so may prefer a guild that does run them more often. A more experienced player may be aware of some common dungeon exploits, and may notice from a guild's statistics that they only run certain dungeons - those that are commonly exploited, and so may look elsewhere...

sasheria · November 2013

bioshrike wrote: »

ambisinisterr, what I meant was a simple tracking/statistics type of setup for guilds - it wouldn't involve actual ranking in any form. What it would allow, for instance, is that a person looking for a guild could look at that guild's breakdown and see that they run a lot of epic dungeons, but hardly PvP - so if they're a PvPer, then that guild may not be for them. They could look and see that Guild A runs practically no T1s - and perhaps they need to ease into epic content, so may prefer a guild that does run them more often. A more experienced player may be aware of some common dungeon exploits, and may notice from a guild's statistics that they only run certain dungeons - those that are commonly exploited, and so may look elsewhere...

this could work, but that is a lot of data to store. It would almost be a person "run history" so to speak.

A player will have a stat open to other player to view? something like how many instances they have ran before, average time run, average drop and such? (that is how it would happen I presume and when you join the guild, your score will average out with the "collective")

It could be almost as bad as "gear score" because a player may not be able to join a guild or party if they don't have "experience" in them (it is like you can't join unless you have X gear score seen it happen many times)

NW should have guild ranking system

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