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Shadow Strike?

degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
edited December 2013 in The Thieves' Den
Dear TRs, I would like your feedback on this.

As an avid PVPer, I often find myself up against TRs using Shadow Strike. The animation is obvious and it's very easy to dodge the attack. Now, would it make sense to you if I dodge your Shadow Strike (a strike that gets you back in the shadows), that your stealth meter should NOT be refilled?

Thoughts?
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Post edited by degraafination on

Comments

  • munkey81munkey81 Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Dear TRs, I would like your feedback on this.

    As an avid PVPer, I often find myself up against TRs using Shadow Strike. The animation is obvious and it's very easy to dodge the attack. Now, would it make sense to you if I dodge your Shadow Strike (a strike that gets you back in the shadows), that your stealth meter should NOT be refilled?

    Thoughts?

    I agree. If you dodge Shadow, it should not refill your meter. Its HAMSTER sammich
  • xushin7xushin7 Member Posts: 147 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    I too agree on that. Surprised that isnt already the case.
    I hadnt throught on reporting it as such.
  • lwedarlwedar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I agree.

    That said, I don't use shadowstrike in pvp. So of course it would be great for me if my opponent couldn't go back in stealth. However for anyone's build that is permastealth or semi permastealth it would absolutely kill that build.
    "we all love this game and want it to thrive"
  • munkey81munkey81 Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    lwedar wrote: »
    I agree.

    That said, I don't use shadowstrike in pvp. So of course it would be great for me if my opponent couldn't go back in stealth. However for anyone's build that is permastealth or semi permastealth it would absolutely kill that build.

    I disagree.

    Good permas would still be good, bad ones would get worse.

    A good perma generally doesn't ever use Shadow Strike "not" in stealth.
  • twinkjetwinkje Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 103 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Agree for the nerf.

    I use SS myself.
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Seems a fair tweak. DC's, for example, don't get any resource from missing and it would have no impact on PvE either since there is always a targetable unit there.
  • jester000jester000 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 55
    edited November 2013
    Can't see a problem with your suggestion Trace, I use ss sometimes in pvp but never actually use it in plain sight of an enemy for the very reason you say, it's easy to dodge. Most times I'll use it from stealth for the stun (the refill is a happy bonus), if I need to just refill my stealth bar with it I'll look for an enemy not focusing on me.
    Zach
    Essence of Aggression
  • vteasyvteasy Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    munkey81 wrote: »
    I disagree.

    Good permas would still be good, bad ones would get worse.

    A good perma generally doesn't ever use Shadow Strike "not" in stealth.

    Even if they are in stealth I still see that animation and also hear the sound. Good perma will be fine against bad players but for those that pvp alot I think it will be dodged often.

    It would be nice though if everything could be dodged. Would add more advantage to quick reflexes.
  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Very cool to see the TR community backing this idea. I posted a similar thread in the Bug Forums. Hopefully, a Dev will read it and say, "Yeah, that makes sense."
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    Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
  • spicenspicen Member Posts: 248 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    I have to disagree. Since the damage of the shadow strike is already really bad it's only used for utility. They would have to buff the damage of it if this change is implemented. Just curious, do you want to waste your encounter slots as a cw for utility skills that are easily dodgeable and when they happen to hit deal really bad damage? I doubt it. I have 2 of my encounters used as utility only, impossible to catch and shadow strike. Most of my damage in pvp comes from duelists flurry, cloud of steel and impact shot. Btw they are fixing impact shot because it was too hard to dodge as it was out of sync abit. We keep receiving nerfs and our new paragon path is pretty bad and they are not planning to fix path of the blade any time soon. Seems like that we aren't FOTM class anymore and thus we don't get much love from devs. Oops, kinda got offtopic there for abit. :D
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Dunno about all that. Slippery slope you are traversing.

    So I am in stealth and use SS and you dodge it? You should never see it coming.

    The only true dodgers are CW/DC/TR...you are now leaving GWF and GF on an island.
  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Dunno about all that. Slippery slope you are traversing.

    So I am in stealth and use SS and you dodge it? You should never see it coming.

    The only true dodgers are CW/DC/TR...you are now leaving GWF and GF on an island.

    Of course you can dodge it. Just because you're in stealth doesn't mean you cannot miss. I do agree that the damage is total HAMSTER, but refilling a stealth meter is a huge advantage. Anyway, not sure if Devs will ever look into it. Just throwing out some ideas.
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  • lwedarlwedar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Dunno about all that. Slippery slope you are traversing.

    So I am in stealth and use SS and you dodge it? You should never see it coming.

    The only true dodgers are CW/DC/TR...you are now leaving GWF and GF on an island.

    an island with unstoppable, prones and a shield... They will manage
    "we all love this game and want it to thrive"
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Eh. It makes sense I'll give you that but it would really trash every build out there which doesn't rely on SS when used in stealth (and thus undetectable to prepare to dodge it). Would result in another unused ability and I don't think they want to force people into more cookie cutter builds.
  • xmousepadxxmousepadx Member Posts: 381 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Even so i only play cw, i dont want that u dont get ur stealth back when u miss ur shadowstrike, just because tr's rely so much on their stealth.
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    xmousepadx wrote: »
    Even so i only play cw, i dont want that u dont get ur stealth back when u miss ur shadowstrike, just because tr's rely so much on their stealth.

    If you blink out of our range you can still have us waste SS and make its countdown start without us getting our stealth back ^^
  • noxisstnoxisst Member Posts: 105
    edited November 2013
    Well you can hardly call ShadowStrike an attack at all, its more of an ability with a target requirement, and an uninterrupted follow-through of the ability. Which is why the attack damage is next to nothing, and the animation so long. The refilling of the stealth meter really has nothing to do with the fact that it strikes the target or not. If you want to prevent a stealth meter refill then interrupt the attack. If you dodged a SS while the attacking rogue was in stealth, then you should be grateful more so because you just avoided a stun, and an ensuing attack that would have left you dead or close to it.

    I can assure you this will never get changed, and is working as intended.
    "If you don't know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly" -- Walter White
  • godlysoul1godlysoul1 Member Posts: 293 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Changed opinion :P
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    godlysoul1 wrote: »
    This actually seems like a good idea. It would get people to complain less about permastealth, but in general it just makes sense that it shouldn't if it doesn't hit. Plus this shouldn't affect pve, which is good. Definitely a better and more fair compromise instead of their original idea to make at wills break stealth....

    This would not affect permastealth rogues.
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    noxisst wrote: »
    Well you can hardly call ShadowStrike an attack at all, its more of an ability with a target requirement, and an uninterrupted follow-through of the ability. Which is why the attack damage is next to nothing, and the animation so long. The refilling of the stealth meter really has nothing to do with the fact that it strikes the target or not. If you want to prevent a stealth meter refill then interrupt the attack. If you dodged a SS while the attacking rogue was in stealth, then you should be grateful more so because you just avoided a stun, and an ensuing attack that would have left you dead or close to it.

    Finally, a decent counter argument. Though, personally, I think a symmetrical high risk mini-game of Cat-and-Mouse between TR and a good dodger would be more fun than the existing asymmetrical situation.

    There's actually another counter argument. If it were changed, it would mean TRs could stealth refill from a GWF but not from other classes (assuming GF could block it too). So, that introduces an unnecessary imbalance. Dodgers can already avoid the daze so that should be sufficient.

    I do not think anyone would lose any sleep over it, if it is never changed. But you can see why it is perceived as an odd mechanic at first glance...
  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    no tr in a right mind would ever use attack which deals no dmg and can be dodged and on top of that is crucial to work coz all build is relying on it...one miss insta dead.
    and that is why its never getting changed.
  • thesakarithesakari Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    f2pma wrote: »
    no tr in a right mind would ever use attack which deals no dmg and can be dodged and on top of that is crucial to work coz all build is relying on it...one miss insta dead.
    and that is why its never getting changed.

    Yeah pretty much this. :O
  • dantteidanttei Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 34
    edited November 2013
    f2pma wrote: »
    no tr in a right mind would ever use attack which deals no dmg and can be dodged and on top of that is crucial to work coz all build is relying on it...one miss insta dead.
    and that is why its never getting changed.

    Exactly. TR's depend on stealth - take it away and were dead. period.
    This whole thread sounds counter-intuitive.
  • stabbathstabbath Member Posts: 350 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    no more nerfs to rogues please. thank you.
  • godlysoul1godlysoul1 Member Posts: 293 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Yeah, I just got to thinking now since shadowmantle will be granting the artifact which can let you see stealthed characters, making shadow strike misses not refill stealth would be pretty bad when they are already getting this stealth "nerf" from artifacts. In addition it is really only a utility move, the damage from it is very poor, so having the potential to take away that utility from it would make it essentially useless. This would also be big problems when hunter rangers come about and get 5 dodges. I'd have to say this is a bad idea at this point.
  • sveta0sveta0 Member Posts: 35
    edited November 2013
    I , too , support this.

    I think all abilities from all classes, if the ability is dodged, then the attacker who used said ability should not reap the benefits from the ability if the ability has been dodged.

    +1
  • sosdetomateesosdetomatee Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    munkey81 wrote: »
    I agree. If you dodge Shadow, it should not refill your meter. Its HAMSTER sammich
    With shadow strike, the rogue strikes at his opponent then jumps into the shadows, so if he misses he can still jump in the shadows. Maybe they will change it so it is not even required to strike any target, just like lashing blade works.
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