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Tene Vs Vorpal Shadowmantle
godlysoul1
Member Posts: 293 Bounty Hunter
Hey guys,
So as shadowmantle is approaching, GWF is getting a buff to their pvp ability. However, tenes will be affected by defensive attributes upon release, such as damage resistance, deflect, ect. These are some reasons why I might consider taking a more offensive approach to sent GWF pvp. The plan here would be to swap out sword/knot for Formian or Castle weapons to gain +450 crit, and then slot all offense slots for crit and go vorpal. Here is why:
1) Tene damage will be reduced, and as it is currently a tank GWF setup tends to have trouble taking down other tanks already. A vorpal/more damage based build would function better in these scenarios.
2) GWF will get at-will marking. This means if you go with a stunlock combo which will give you time to mark before each hit, you should be able to gain + damage from the mark itself, and now make use of the feat which increases damage to marked targets +15%.
3) GWF could potentially swap out bravery for Trample the Fallen. This would give an extra 15% damage to controlled targets. This is where the damage really stacks up if you consider a combo such as, Takedown, (mark target), Frontline Surge, (mark target), battle strike or restoring strike.
- This would add +30% damage on restoring strike/battle strike and frontline surge on top of the extra damage added from the mark itself (Not included because I couldn't find specific values for how much it adds.)
4) Since GWF would get these large damage boosts, it would make an additional +50% damage on a crit much more effective.
5) The glory based artifact would be able to give full hp as temporary hp (every 2 minutes maxed out I believe?). Regardless, it is a very reasonable cooldown, and this would increase survivability massively, which would decrease the need to stack the extra regen/defensive values on the weapons if the benefits of going a more offensive route could enable you to get kills faster to ease the pressure.
6) With frontline surge we have the potential to knockdown more than 1 target. (Also, prone time could be increased by an extra second with the feat). This prone is also longer than flourish, and when combined with takedown makes a more efficient stunlock build than previously, which would be able to ease more pressure off and decrease the need for tanking a little bit more.
7) A new boon allows us to gain 250 regen. This would also decrease the need slightly to stack more regen in the sword/knot slot.
As shadowmantle is coming up I would prefer not to waste the free respec, so let me know what you guys think. I have heard people say tenes are still effective even post nerf, so maybe this setup wont work as well or maybe it will. Hopefully some more experienced players have either tried this or have better insight as to how it would work rather than me. Thanks for reading, hope to hear feedback.
So as shadowmantle is approaching, GWF is getting a buff to their pvp ability. However, tenes will be affected by defensive attributes upon release, such as damage resistance, deflect, ect. These are some reasons why I might consider taking a more offensive approach to sent GWF pvp. The plan here would be to swap out sword/knot for Formian or Castle weapons to gain +450 crit, and then slot all offense slots for crit and go vorpal. Here is why:
1) Tene damage will be reduced, and as it is currently a tank GWF setup tends to have trouble taking down other tanks already. A vorpal/more damage based build would function better in these scenarios.
2) GWF will get at-will marking. This means if you go with a stunlock combo which will give you time to mark before each hit, you should be able to gain + damage from the mark itself, and now make use of the feat which increases damage to marked targets +15%.
3) GWF could potentially swap out bravery for Trample the Fallen. This would give an extra 15% damage to controlled targets. This is where the damage really stacks up if you consider a combo such as, Takedown, (mark target), Frontline Surge, (mark target), battle strike or restoring strike.
- This would add +30% damage on restoring strike/battle strike and frontline surge on top of the extra damage added from the mark itself (Not included because I couldn't find specific values for how much it adds.)
4) Since GWF would get these large damage boosts, it would make an additional +50% damage on a crit much more effective.
5) The glory based artifact would be able to give full hp as temporary hp (every 2 minutes maxed out I believe?). Regardless, it is a very reasonable cooldown, and this would increase survivability massively, which would decrease the need to stack the extra regen/defensive values on the weapons if the benefits of going a more offensive route could enable you to get kills faster to ease the pressure.
6) With frontline surge we have the potential to knockdown more than 1 target. (Also, prone time could be increased by an extra second with the feat). This prone is also longer than flourish, and when combined with takedown makes a more efficient stunlock build than previously, which would be able to ease more pressure off and decrease the need for tanking a little bit more.
7) A new boon allows us to gain 250 regen. This would also decrease the need slightly to stack more regen in the sword/knot slot.
As shadowmantle is coming up I would prefer not to waste the free respec, so let me know what you guys think. I have heard people say tenes are still effective even post nerf, so maybe this setup wont work as well or maybe it will. Hopefully some more experienced players have either tried this or have better insight as to how it would work rather than me. Thanks for reading, hope to hear feedback.
Post edited by godlysoul1 on
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Comments
This is good only on paper. Every DoT or Fey Thistle will remove mark from your target. So this will not work on most deflect build chars. Instead of mark feat you could take Deep Gash (pretty powerfull DoT in module 2).
Anyway with all this passive stats from artifacts and new boons GWF will get even more survivability and considerable boost in DMG. So in my opinion Vorpal will be best even for sentinels.
Either way the only other feat worth swapping out the mark damage feat for would be to gain 5% crit on sure strike. Taking the mark feat is something you need anyway to complete the sent tree.
Since I can't test on pvp yet though, depending on how fast the combo can get off, it may be able to still take deep gash and leave behind the extra 1 second prone time on frontline. However, I am wondering if the hits from deep gash could be deflected and thereby take off the mark? If this isn't the case, fey thistle wouldn't be a problem seeing as you mark before each encounter and the encounter would hit before fey would from them deflecting.
that is exactly what i have done on the preview.
I switched bravery for temple of the fallen, and added the powerfull challenge feat. both combined gave me 30% boost damage after takedown.
with full dark build, I could hit about 11K crit on frontline surge on another tank gwf, and 7~8k on restorin strike, which healed me a lot.
I fought a gwf that everyone was saying that he was beating everyone on the matches there, but he was using lifedrinker, and no one could kill him. not even rangers. i went 1 x 1 him, and somehow I could kill him very fast, and he didn't have dps to drop my hp bellow 70%.
So yes, this is definitly one way to go. gwf will get huge DPS INCREASE together with more cc.
you can try a full CC build, adding roar insteadl RS, or IBS. too.
roar is nice, because it root also unstoppable.
But think one thing. tenes nerf won't make them that useless as people are afraid of.
it won't go through DR, but remember GWFs get a lot armor pen from CON. not only that, but the new artefacts and boons will give about 900+ raw regen. which you will be able to switch some items as you said.
this will be able to give more armor pen as well.
more armor pen = more tenes will go through dr, about to close to what it is before nerf, except deflected dmg. so it still good option.
not only that. but with rings hp offense, some others items build. you will be able to make a 40k hp 7 tenes GWF, it is the 2nd build i tested and worked great on preview.
gwf got ahuge buff.
although a lot people complain about gwf being OP on pvp, it is a class that IS EASILY CANCELED on premades.
all it takes to cancel a gwf is a GF, another DC, another GWF or a good perma stealth rogue.
this actually will make gwfs more agressive, and being canceled with more difficulty.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
yes, sure strike feat isnt so good anymore. especially if you using the new build properly, you will use sure strike very rarely...;p
and as with I tested, deep gash don't deflect. and it got buffed al ot.
it is hitting a lot harder now.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
GFs and Sentinels have usually def overkill. 5k the first, 3k the second. Which means that your SoTS will decrease their defense but the loss in DR will be minimal. On the other hand, even if you have only 3/ 3.5k power, deep gash already hurts a lot, even more if you have a vorpal. Can be useful to cancel regeneration in a fight.
With Threat Rush, bravery can be unslotted. You lose some deflection (5%), but you gain the damage buff gannicus mentioned above.
The regen from artifacts will probably also make the stat massively available to any class or build. PvP will probably be more interesting if regen is not limited to only tank builds and can actually make fights last a bit longer.
Lifesteal in PvP is not that good. You need to deal damage to heal, and in PvP you rarely deal continuous damage. Regen at 900 on a destro build (24k hp roughly) can heal around 1k every 3 seconds. It's more than what you get from lifesteal stat, even if you stack it to 10%. Lifesteal and lifedrinker are most effective when you AoE in PvE. There you deal tons of damage fast to multiple targets, healing very fast. If you have briartwine, it will proc lifedrinker. Meaning that each time you get hit, you heal for 80 HP on perfect lifedrinker, or 65-70 with a normal.
In PvP, imho, lifedrinker is not THAT good. It deals 70 dmg and 70 heal on self on normal, no matter what you hit for. It's solid, but regeneration in PvP is hands down the best stat. On a destoryer you've to get to def soft cap and then stack deflection to mitigate damage and last more. 1k regen tick can increase survivability a lot and make destroyers more efficient in PvP.
It's not as efficient as on tank builds, but if you've capped your def and got high deflection, it's the way to go on any build if you go PvP.
Yeah we talked in game, but as I've been browsing and talking with others, I've heard many people say they plan on sticking with a tene build instead of a more dps oriented build even post nerf, so I wanted to get more opinions and see what other peoples thoughts were so that as I start getting into more expensive enchants/gear I can make sure I know which path to take. Especially since I would use slightly different feat specs for tene/vorpal build once we are given the free respec, which I do not want to waste.
Thanks for the informative reply
Hopefully they wont be canceled as easily after this, but I have still been having doubts about its capabilities even post shadowmantle. I may be converting to a rogue soon...
This 100%. Whats funny is my GF will be able to stack even more arp putting me OVER 40% arp equiv with 6 GTE... so most DR wont affect tenes.
The other aspect is damage BUFFS affect tene as well, mark = 8% dmg buff on GF and something like a 22%? dmg buff for GWFs.
I know on my GF I was playing with tenebs and on live get 948 procs, on PTR could get 1200 procs with proper rotations.
Gerftylog was messing around with some buffs and got 1400 tene procs (up from about 1100-1150 atm).
The only big downside is deflect which cuts dmg in half, but overall, what else will you stack.....
@aryoux wow, i didn't really paid attention, so student of sword would also boost tenes dmg.
in some cases, maybe fighter trs/cws, the tenes would probably do more damage than before.
in that case it is more a buff than a nerf LOL. not sure about the mark and temple of the fallen tho. if it would also increase tene dmg, it would be absurdly overpower.
especially now with new boons/artefacts, where i can get 40k hp build 7 tenes
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
You guys might need to check that.
Someone saying tenebrous isn't benefiting from ARP/mitigation debuffs.
This is taken from the preview patch notes when they announced the changes to tenes:
Items and Economy
•Soulforged Armor: These enchantments have been reworked. When you die you are resurrected, healing you for 20/22.5/25/27.5% of average player health and healed for an additional 10/12.5/15/17.5% of average player health over 3 seconds. This effect may only occur every 90 seconds.
•Tenebrous Enchantment now properly respects armor, dodging, and damage immunity.
Should it actually be affected by arm pen/resist ignore? Obviously it makes sense from the standpoint that if you have resistance ignore, then something that is being mitigated by that attribute would be affected by those it. However, this is an enchant rather than the "character" doing damage. (Strange trying to apply logic to something fictitious like this...) Someone mentioned in the post you linked that maybe they intended it to not be affected by offensive attributes such as arm pen? I could see this possibly being true?
Either way though, you guys both said you tested them and it worked right?
i tested and it was working like that, maybe they changed something, i tested a while ago. i will make another test today.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Yeah idk lol. I am just overly hopeful that it was intentional :P Let me know what you find.
armor pen doesn't work on dummies as they have 0 dr, and armor pen can't go negative.
so i tested on pvm, from 0 to 2% armor pen i got about 40 more dmgs on my tenes against the same mob
the guy made that post probably tested against dummies.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Student of the sword lower defense by 15% on crit, and can stack 3 times. On a squishy CW/TR you can already get their DR to 0 with enough ArP, so stacking SoTS should not bring any benefit. On tanks that have defense overkill, you can lower their defense but the DR should decrease only by little. For example, a GF with 5k defense will have his DR still well above 40%.
Deep gash, on the other side, is a flat damage based on your power (it's around 10% of your power every second, for 5 seconds, tested on dummies).
If you want to max the sentinel path, and you want to get SoTS, you've to give up either deep gash or Great weapon focus. I don't know if it's worth it...
About tenes, i'll theorycraft a bit (i don't use them): you've to consider not only deflection. It's affected by damage byffs, but also by other defensive mechanics.
Examples:
- it can be dodged. No problem you say, it will proc on next hit. Wrong. When you hit with takedown a teleporting CW or rolling TR, if they dodge exactly when you hit, your encounter goes on cooldown, cause you actually hit them, but they are immune. This means that CWs and TRs just have to dodge correctly your first attack to send your tenes on cooldown.
- a DC can cast astral shield to mitigate the damage
- A GF will be able to block your first attack, and your tenes will go on cooldown
- A GWF can go unstoppable, and just need to eat your first tene proc, then time unstoppable to match the 20 seconds cooldown to be unstoppable when your tenes proc
- Obviously can be deflected
- A TR can go ITC and get no damage, sending your tenes on cooldown (they hit, but the target is immune)
- Same for soulforged
- To benefit from SoTS you've to be in a sustained fight, where you proc tenes the first time, then stack SoTS, then proc tene again. If the enemy is cocky enough to let you stack 3 SoTS and stay there to eat the damage, you deserve to win.
Also, i have a question: sentinel build, tenes, vorpal and ArP. Let's say the sentinel tank is using still titan/IS combo. Also, you guys usually are at 24-26 con, and i suppose you'll go dexterity for critic, leaving str behind. You still need a ton of crit and ArP stats to be effective. If your attack slots are filled with Gtenes, how do you stack ArP and crit? You can get some from accessories and artifacts/ boons, but i'm not sure you can stack enough of both.
With 26 con you have 16% ArP. You get 20% ArP stacking it at around 2k. You need around 1.4k to get to 30% ArP. How do you stack it enough, if you use 7 Gtenes already?
You still have to choose.
Also, gannicus, i have a doubt: you said SoTS increased tene damage on a dummy. Then you say dummies have 0 DR. If they already have 0 DR, then SoTS should make no effect, since lowering the defense of a dummy that already has 0 DR should bring no benefit. From what i know, defense increase damage reduction...if DR is already at 0, how do you increase damage by lowering the target defense?
Also, if you get tenes and ArP, how do you stack crit? You've to get good crit, or your SoTS and Vorpal will be not as effective as they could be...
armor pen have no difference on dummies because armor pen can't go negative, so it won't matter if test on dummies.
it is like CWs do a lot dmgs, some cw make a lot people go negative defense without problem.
i have two builds in mind
the first one i tested more.
which is 2 darks, 2 savages, rest slot def fomorian sword.
i can get 36% critical plus weapon master.
kill very fast(that was the build i used to kill the other tank gwf fast).
but hav ein mind i was using a lot regen stuff i will be able to switch when i get the boons and new artefacts
concerning the full tene build, i didn't test on pvp.
but i suspect tenes will be still viable since you will be able to stack some armor pen, criti from other items.
the full tene build would be reavers edge. i still have like 23~25% crit plus wep master. which is good already for vorpal and deep gash.
i get a lot armor pen already from con.
then there are some blue rings and neck that give armor pen hp and critical strike. no big deal.
champion knot also give 600 hp, 100 criti, 100 armor pen(this is already part of my main build).
in last case if reavers edge is not so viable, sharpen axe give a lot armor pen and regen too.
crit is no big deal after 20%
i think the first build will be more efficient but we will have to see.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
So i guess you give up great weapon focus (10% more damage on at-wills) to get SoTS?
Do you think it will actually be effective to switch out this regen stuff once artifacts come out? With my 2 titan/imposing greater rings of health/thigristle belt and +110 regen from the neck slot, I am still only around 1.4k regen. 700 is the max regen you can get from artifacts if you are rich enough to raise them to max. 2.1k in regen is still only just around the mark for when diminishing returns start to happen on all stats anyway. If you were truly able to take down tank GWFs now in preview without much trouble, I don't see the need to sacrifice that for more offense. 2.1k doesn't sound like overloading it to me considering that is generally where people decide to cap other stats they want to maximize. This still leaves room to add something like a +300arm pen/crit artifact as well. (Unless the wiki list of artifacts is missing a 3rd regen artifact and you can stack more than 700?)
Also if you were to go with the raven artifact to gain 100% temp hp, this would mean much greater increased survive time, which would mean any extra regen stats would have an even greater effect since you would be healing with it for the duration that you have temp hp. I'm not so sure I would neglect the idea of just stacking on the extra regen if our offensive attributes will already be buffed a decent amount.
Also, another thing to keep in mind with tenes is that the cool down apparently doesn't mean much, which negates most of the arguments brought up about things like blocking or dodging, ect. which might set tenes on cooldown. According to this video, tenes can re-activate as quickly as every 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvMAMMrOdw
yes. that is why i don't use grudge style on new build, and add SoTS. you don't use much sure strike anymore with the new at will and skills.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
its just for tests bro. the gwf the way it is now is a monster. when complete the boons and full artefacts will open new possibility. of course stacking all that high regen might be something interesting, but honestily i tried different builds before. and for what i felt, above 1.3 or 1.4 regen, it doesn't give much more hp. so if we can make something more deadly without compromising much more defense.
I won't sacrifice my defense slots, as I have always been fan of full hp builds (Actually I have a third build, that also might be interesting after the new update), where i get 44~45k hp. but no offense slots:p
the actual build with 5/4 works great. but i want to see how well and deadly i can become with the full tene build after preview since i will be able to stack great deals of regen and others stats combined.
so concluding, i remember i didn't like stacking over 1.4k regen because I didn't feel like it was healing me that much (plus to stack more than that nowadays required you to sacrifice some hp), so that is also probably one of the reasons why I didn't feel it effective. however, you are totally right. without compromising high hp, ands tack like 2k regen might be something very godlike.
imagine that third build with 45k hp with over 2k regen... trickester sturdy belt or other similar def slots, rings of earth, that neck defense slots for gwf ( i have it but forgot the name lol). and nightmare knot for other defense slots.
45k hp. only one offense slot tho lol.
there is also another setup that I am using on live now.
43k hp almost, and still 4 tenes, and 1k+ regen.
not bad at all.
about the video, idk how it works honestly. never did much tests about tenes CD.
but feels like it proc more often when you have dots, like bilethorn, plaguefire, flame, or other buffs.
i use deep gash for this reason, so i dont need sacrifice my vorpal.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Oh and also, if you are interested you should look at getting the redcap sword knot from the first feywild quest dungeon chest. It gives 650 hp 106 arm pen and 106 crit
***Actually, did you mean you still end up with 2 offense slots? One from the main hand slot and one from the shirt slot? Or am I missing a way to add another defense slot?
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
But it does benefit from mitigation debuffs:
This is weird though, doesn't look like it was intended.
i had the impression my armor pen helped against mobs, i did a quick test. i should try again. maybe i lost some hp and forgot to count it right.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I don't think it's WAI, and should be fixed. No point in a cooldown, if it does not work.