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CC additions will hurt game; Need a global immunity timer
lobo0084
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 663 Bounty Hunter
This is my opinion.
I am a GWF, first and foremost. And I am loving what I'm seeing with the Iron Vanguard addition to the Great Weapon Fighter. I'm reserving much of my opinions on the class changes in PvE for when I am able to experience group content like dungeons, but I have a feeling GWF are going to get an overall boost in our PVE capabilities, which we much needed.
So what's the problem?
But I'm seeing a problem arising for the PvP side of the game. That is the abundance of debilitating CC's. A debilitating CC, in my opinion, is any control power that prevents a player from acting. This starts with minor one's like stun and daze, and escalates into the major abilities like Prone and Sleep (which we don't have yet).
These are the most powerful forms of CC in the game, and almost every class has a few options to apply them. But nobody has more knockdowns than my beloved GWF class will have come the Iron Vanguard update. Most of our dailies contain a knockdown, plus our beautiful Takedown power which recharges quicker if we miss, and now we have a few more options on top of those.
Why is this an issue?
It's not, for me. As a GWF, I will most likely be the applicator of these mentioned CC's. Plus, my class has some unique advantages against most CC's which make them especially resistant to being perma-prone.
But it's not just GWF's on the field. And a good GF/GWF combo, or dual GWF combo, will be able to keep an opponent perma-prone or perma-stunned. Possibly multiple opponents, with the right daily application and teamwork. This is already happening, but with the upcoming changes, I predict it will only get worse.
I feel strongly that if these changes make live, with no safeguard put into place, I will be seeing a GWF nerf coming in a few weeks or months that may end up hurting my class more in PvE, and possibly addressing the wrong concerns completely.
What do suggest to fix it?
Instead of nerfing the capabilities of any class, apply one global timer for each of the debilitating effects on a player. Not all CC, such as slows, only the ones that stop a player from being able to input. I suggest starting small, with three seconds, and expanding from there if necessary.
This would mean that a single player would not be able to be 'knocked prone' within three seconds of him finishing the standing animation from the previous knockdown, whether it's by the same opponent or another opponent entirely. Any abilities which would knock that player prone, still performs all the other effects of the power (damage, other cc, dr reduction, etc).
Would this help in PvE?
That is for better heads than me to decide. Only time I've seen a perma-prone in CC is really in Karundax with the second boss adds, and thats their gyser flame ability that is a knock up and prone, coming from so many adds in quick succession.
I am not sure how making it apply to both PvE and PvP would hurt the game, though.
My final thoughts.
Again, this is a GWF looking out for himself. I'm thinking of long term nerfs that aren't even coming down the pike yet, and wanting to avoid them. I feel that by adding this global immunity timer, we can quell some of the inevitable complaints and calls for nerfs (only some, not all) before this ever hit's live.
I am a GWF, first and foremost. And I am loving what I'm seeing with the Iron Vanguard addition to the Great Weapon Fighter. I'm reserving much of my opinions on the class changes in PvE for when I am able to experience group content like dungeons, but I have a feeling GWF are going to get an overall boost in our PVE capabilities, which we much needed.
So what's the problem?
But I'm seeing a problem arising for the PvP side of the game. That is the abundance of debilitating CC's. A debilitating CC, in my opinion, is any control power that prevents a player from acting. This starts with minor one's like stun and daze, and escalates into the major abilities like Prone and Sleep (which we don't have yet).
These are the most powerful forms of CC in the game, and almost every class has a few options to apply them. But nobody has more knockdowns than my beloved GWF class will have come the Iron Vanguard update. Most of our dailies contain a knockdown, plus our beautiful Takedown power which recharges quicker if we miss, and now we have a few more options on top of those.
Why is this an issue?
It's not, for me. As a GWF, I will most likely be the applicator of these mentioned CC's. Plus, my class has some unique advantages against most CC's which make them especially resistant to being perma-prone.
But it's not just GWF's on the field. And a good GF/GWF combo, or dual GWF combo, will be able to keep an opponent perma-prone or perma-stunned. Possibly multiple opponents, with the right daily application and teamwork. This is already happening, but with the upcoming changes, I predict it will only get worse.
I feel strongly that if these changes make live, with no safeguard put into place, I will be seeing a GWF nerf coming in a few weeks or months that may end up hurting my class more in PvE, and possibly addressing the wrong concerns completely.
What do suggest to fix it?
Instead of nerfing the capabilities of any class, apply one global timer for each of the debilitating effects on a player. Not all CC, such as slows, only the ones that stop a player from being able to input. I suggest starting small, with three seconds, and expanding from there if necessary.
This would mean that a single player would not be able to be 'knocked prone' within three seconds of him finishing the standing animation from the previous knockdown, whether it's by the same opponent or another opponent entirely. Any abilities which would knock that player prone, still performs all the other effects of the power (damage, other cc, dr reduction, etc).
Would this help in PvE?
That is for better heads than me to decide. Only time I've seen a perma-prone in CC is really in Karundax with the second boss adds, and thats their gyser flame ability that is a knock up and prone, coming from so many adds in quick succession.
I am not sure how making it apply to both PvE and PvP would hurt the game, though.
My final thoughts.
Again, this is a GWF looking out for himself. I'm thinking of long term nerfs that aren't even coming down the pike yet, and wanting to avoid them. I feel that by adding this global immunity timer, we can quell some of the inevitable complaints and calls for nerfs (only some, not all) before this ever hit's live.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Post edited by lobo0084 on
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That makes sense... not.
One things for sure, if they decide to roll out Shadowmantle with the state of GWF as is, the results will be hilarious.
The real losers will, of course, be the GF class that will be whipsawed viciously by trying to now re-balance the whole mess.
First, I don't feel this changes the whole game. It's something I feel is already an issue, and will only become a larger one with the upcoming module.
That said, I don't believe anything about the GWF class itself is unbalanced in the current model. I feel what has tipped our hand has been tene's and the regen stat. I think one of those is being fixed, while the other may be slightly exacerbated with the addition of regen-oriented companions and artifacts, but we'll see with further testing.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Sounds more complex then a simple immunity timer, but also more in line with their other mechanics, I guess.
As for the fighter line: I've never had a problem with facetanking CW's and TR's. Maybe I play fighter differently.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
The fact pvp sentinel GWFs AP generation still stinks has not changed, especially when compared to GFs. So GFs still get a lot more use out of the daily than GWFs. Also, PvP Sentinels do not have any real amount of recovery to help reduce the longer cooldown on frontline.
The real gain of Iron Vanguard is Threatening Rush, giving PvP GWFs maddening closing ability and the ability to mark for 23% more damage (15% feat + 8% from mark). Also you can use trample the fallen for 15% more damage to proned targets, but you will lose either Bravery (15% runspeed + 8% deflect) or Weapon master (10% crit and 10% deflect).
Given that GWFs won't be able to rely on Tenebrous anymore, I think its a fair tradeoff. Better burst damage ability for non-tenebrous GWFs considering right now not having Tenebrous means your damage is pretty weak.
edit: I forgot Ferocious Reaction. Given GWF HP total, most will probably start with this and tehn switch to trample the fallen or weapon master when it is on cooldown. Feated it is 30%. 12K heal and damage when you have 40K hps. Yikes.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
People have told you this before, i think.
You got rolled in pvp because you have (had?) very bad items and a bad GS. You've been trying to fight people that are fully geared. Well then you started to complain about anything, instead of adapting to certain situations. Idk if the DC has an anti cc skill but i think they do have a dodge - like skill which grants an immune... Why don't you try to dodge the initial hit of a stunlock? To avoid getting stunlocked...
Posting on the forums is easier than playing NW, would be my guess.
Not a good idea to bring up DC class. That is the class with the most issues by quite a margin.
You are also completely wrong. No solo CW, regardless of gear or perfect timing or spell selection, can bring down a PvP-specced, i.e. Sentinel DC, in one rotation. This is especially the case if the DC gets off even one action (which is very possible because CW's have few Prones).