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High Vizier, ArP and you OR: debuffing in general
crystal892f
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
Hey guys, two forum threads / posts got me thinking:
- 1.) ArP overrated?
- 2.) ArP in PvP
My basic question is: Do you really need HV AND high ArP? Isn't one of it enough?
I have to admit that I still don't don't fully understand the order of debuffing / defense reduction, so I hope you can help me here.
Example 1: target has 2000 def, 3 stacks of High Vizier, no other debuffing; I have 20% ArP
So, does the High Vizier debuff (-1350 def) apply first? If so, the def of the target gets reduced to 650 (side question 1: can HV reduce the def below 0?). As I understand from 2.), ArP cannot reduce the def below 0, so even though I could reduce more, my ArP reduces it to 0 and the encounter I use therefore deals full damage. Do I understand this correctly?
Example 2: Same as Example 1, but this time the target is also debuffed from Thaum CoI (-15% mitigation)
So, is this debuff applied AFTER the def is already reduced to 0 from HV and ArP? So my encounter deals +15% damage?
Example 3: Same as Example 2, but this time the target is also debuffed from a Perfect Plague Fire Enchantment (15% def reduced (given it would really work this way - I read it doesn't, but let's ignore this for the sake of this thread); side question 2: the 15% def reduction doesn't also stack 3 times (so it's 45%), does it?)
Here I'm quite clueless. I don't know when the PF effect is applied (before HV, before ArP, before debuffs).
a) If the PF effect is applied before HV, would it translate to: 2000 def - 15% = 1700 def - 1350 def from HV = 350; and ArP reduces the def fully to 0; so my encounter deals +15% from Thaum CoI?
b) If the PF effect is applied before ArP, would it translate to: 2000 def - 1350 def from HV = 650 - 15% = ~553; ArP reduces the def fully to 0; so my encounter deals +15% from Thaum CoI?
c) If the PF effect is applied before or after debuffs (and they add up), would I deal +30% damage (+15% from Thaum CoI, +15% from PF)?
Many questions, I know. I hope somebody can enlighten me. Thanks.
- 1.) ArP overrated?
- 2.) ArP in PvP
My basic question is: Do you really need HV AND high ArP? Isn't one of it enough?
I have to admit that I still don't don't fully understand the order of debuffing / defense reduction, so I hope you can help me here.
Example 1: target has 2000 def, 3 stacks of High Vizier, no other debuffing; I have 20% ArP
So, does the High Vizier debuff (-1350 def) apply first? If so, the def of the target gets reduced to 650 (side question 1: can HV reduce the def below 0?). As I understand from 2.), ArP cannot reduce the def below 0, so even though I could reduce more, my ArP reduces it to 0 and the encounter I use therefore deals full damage. Do I understand this correctly?
Example 2: Same as Example 1, but this time the target is also debuffed from Thaum CoI (-15% mitigation)
So, is this debuff applied AFTER the def is already reduced to 0 from HV and ArP? So my encounter deals +15% damage?
Example 3: Same as Example 2, but this time the target is also debuffed from a Perfect Plague Fire Enchantment (15% def reduced (given it would really work this way - I read it doesn't, but let's ignore this for the sake of this thread); side question 2: the 15% def reduction doesn't also stack 3 times (so it's 45%), does it?)
Here I'm quite clueless. I don't know when the PF effect is applied (before HV, before ArP, before debuffs).
a) If the PF effect is applied before HV, would it translate to: 2000 def - 15% = 1700 def - 1350 def from HV = 350; and ArP reduces the def fully to 0; so my encounter deals +15% from Thaum CoI?
b) If the PF effect is applied before ArP, would it translate to: 2000 def - 1350 def from HV = 650 - 15% = ~553; ArP reduces the def fully to 0; so my encounter deals +15% from Thaum CoI?
c) If the PF effect is applied before or after debuffs (and they add up), would I deal +30% damage (+15% from Thaum CoI, +15% from PF)?
Many questions, I know. I hope somebody can enlighten me. Thanks.
Post edited by crystal892f on
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I think though that PvE wise all that stuff somehow HV+PF+ArP+any raw migitation debuffs(eg. thaum -15%) stack because it is possible to reduce some of those values below 0 (defense for sure remembering the HV stacking bug).
ArP has smth to do with reducing total enemy migitation which is not based on defense alone (which PF+HV reduce which in turn though is part at least on our characters of the total damage resistance).
What I know though is that the PvE ArP cap ~24% doesn't apply to PvP when hitting some pure tanky builds like GFs/GWFs who tend to have high total Damage Resistance , meaning that you need more ArP to bypass their migitation completely.
From personal experience in PvE being ArP capped , 3/3 HV debuffs , 2x RoE tabbed and Thaum debuff produces greater numbers than 1x RoE or no RoE at all or no CoI thaum debuff.
Take that all though with a grain of salt until someone else with raw data replies
And I made it even before finding out many of our AoEs don't benefit from ArP.
So yeah... because SotEA, SS, OF benefit nothing from that huge amount of Darks I have in my gear, I'd say at least for now, that ArP is overrated, and you would be better stacking Power for example.
Also ArP applies first (when it works...) and after that you can take the target into negative "resistance" with debuffs such as RoE and HV, from what I've read in the forums.
ArP will get fixed (at least partially) in the new expansion, but removing your enchants will cost just 2.5 Gold then. You will still need probably to get Darks again if you want to be optimal.
As for myself, I'm sitting at 2400 ArP (already reduced it) and all Darks on the char for PvP purposes. I'm not intending to change anything before the new expansion and will just go forward with this, I'm doing fine enough
And yes, hybrid thaum/rene specs that leech from others' Chaos Magic and CoI debuffing will do more damage if they know how to play at similar gear than pure renes or thaums. If they were "smart" enough to don't bother with ArP too much and stacked Power and Crit instead, they'll push even more damage.
Yeah, quite shocking.
Okay, this helps. So back to my Examples.
I don't know how much 2000 def is in %, but let's just say my 20% ArP reduces it to 0%. After that you say HV applies, which would mean -1350 def for the target. Here I also don't know how much % that is, but let's just say it's 15%. So at this point my power does +15%.
Now the big question is, how (weapon) debuffs stack (if at all) with this.
If it's simply additively it would be:
+15% (HV)
+15% (thaum CoI)
+15% (PF)
That would mean my power does +45% damage. Seems too good to be true.
That sounds fair. The cost to remove them was ridiculous.
Thats why there are times when I see Icy Knifes(wich doesn't benefit from ArP on live lol but still the debuff stacking works) crit from 25k up to 75k when the (multiple class debuff) stars align. Thats how there are 135k lashing blade rogue crits on youtube etc. as well.
As far as debuffs go when one says reduces migitation , like CoI thaum its a flat dmg increase of what it says. When is reduces defense you have to figure out the migitation aka dmg increase it provides.
On your above example then its 15+9+9= 38% dmg increase.Imagine other classes debuffs atop that, since all those debuffs benefit everyone hitting the target.
Sounds too good but yeah itss true dont worry xD
Hmm, here is mentioned it adds only a 3% debuff.
Okay, so 15% comes from Thaum CoI, 9% from HV, but why also 9% from PF? You just mentioned it would be 15%.
And how is 15+9+9 = 38?
Man I'm EXTREMELY lazy when it comes to maths but:
- 827 Def = +16.7% Damage Resistance (from my char). I have however 20.2% DR, so something else contributes, I am 99% it's deflect, I'm sure somebody else will clarify. (OK I removed my Deflect items and DR=Def in % now), so it's Deflect contributing to DR).
- 2540 ArP will ignore 24% DR (not just Def.)
- HV will steal a total of 450x3=1350 Defense from the target. Not all powers that debuff the target also steal Def. for you. Since other factors seem to contribute at DR, dunno to say exactly how much this would be.
- if you have enough ArP (2540 for a PvE boss), then your spell will take place at 0% target resistance. After this, the other debuffs are additive and take the taget more and more into the negatives. That includes debuffs from other classes which will add up to yours.
I hope I didn't make any mistakes, if I did somebody else will correct me :P
There is never any need to look at the actual Defense value or calculate around it. Testing will show the correct fixed percentage mitigation reduction or fixed flat damage increase.
Thus, if you actually test the High Vizier set, and it is trivial to test it, you will see each debuff stack is 10% flat damage increase or mitigation reduction. Thus, the maximum of three stacks is 30%.
If you want the flat damage increase, you will want Armor Penetration/Resistance Ignored (when it works) in order to first reduce mitigation to zero, hence point for point there is no more effective damage stat (when it works).
Take all of this with a hefty grain of salt; things change all the time, both with and without documentation.
To (not) answer your questions re: order of debuff application, as far as I am aware, no one on these forums has taken the time to collect the data and actually figure out the order of operations when it comes to mitigation and Defense debuffs.
Below is a rundown of what myself and others were able to figure out while I was trying to dig into why my greater Plague Fire (GPF) enchant wasn't stacking on mobs after Feywild went live.
I, like @fondlez, was operating under the assumption that mob mitigation was just a flat percentage until I was corrected by a dev (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?453161-Plague-Fire-mitigation-debuff/page2):
Putting aside the confusing wording of 9% defense (I believe s/he meant mitigation), it was pretty clear that there are more mob stats at play than just mitigation. As I get into in my thread, the math, at least as far as GPF is concerned, indicates there is mob Defense and Armor Class/"other" mitigation that is not reduced by Defense debuffs but acts a lot like player Armor Class. For the sake of simplicity, I'm calling it Armor Class or AC.
I worked under the assumption that mobs have Armor Class and Defense ratings just like player characters; mob values are set at static levels depending on the type of mob. @freehugs9 conveniently listed all of the mitigation values in a forum post a while ago. From that stats thread (http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?301761-Calculating-stats-and-their-effects):
Mitigation, as it is referred to above, is the sum of damage reduction provided by Armor Class plus Defense rating when both are expressed as percentages. The formulas for both should be in that thread I linked above.
The point of that little summary is that some of the debuffs mentioned earlier in this thread affect mitigation (meaning both Armor Class and Defense) while others only affect Defense. I obtained very rough Armor Class and Defense numbers for a couple of the quoted mitigation percentages and the Defense values were far enough apart to have a small impact on the value of percent-based Defense debuffs (such as GPF or Terror) depending on the mob attacked.
What I did not sort out was the order of operations (I was more focused on trying to figure out how badly borked GPF is/was.) From what I recall (and this is a few months old at this point) the order had more moving pieces to control and test for than I had free time or inclination to put towards figuring it all out, especially considering how often mechanics in this game change without documentation or acknowledgement. One thing that I did notice was that I could never get my damage numbers to reconcile with my debuffs and ArP when I counted ArP first, then debuffs.
The game engine may be calculating in an oddball way. A hypothetical, hand-waving example: ArP is ignored first, but mitigation and Defense debuffs calculate like AC/Defense numbers are still in play - your character is merely ignoring them (as the ArP tooltip indicates) and then, starting from remaining mitigation not ignored by ArP, subtracting mitigation and Defense debuffs calculated off of the attacked target's base AC and Defense. I have no idea if things that ignore/reduce mitigation (like ArP or feated CoI) ignore/reduce AC first, Defense first, or if the two are combined into a mitigation number and then calculated by the game engine.
To conclude that wall o' text, a lot of time-consuming testing is needed to figure out these mitigation mechanics. For me, taking into account the time commitment and how often mechanics change in this game, it is not worth the effort to pursue these tests further. My bottom line with Neverwinter is play the game, have fun, and DO NOT waste time and resources min/maxing. There are far too many moving and/or broken targets with this product to invest time in trying to make "the best character."
I hope at least some of this was helpful.
The point of my post is you can ignore such things as the exact details of what does or does not make up mitigation, just by testing, which you have to do anyway.
You will very quickly find that anything that mentions Defense reduction is effectively identical to a fixed mitigation reduction. Whether that mitigation reduction is X% of X.0001% or Y% is irrelevant. Currently, GPF = 3% maximum mitigation debuff or flat damage increase. HV = 30% maximum mitigation debuff or flat damage increase. These values never change, regardless of the target, to within 1 decimal place unless bugged.
I'm in agreement with you when it comes to roughing out how to gear, how to spec, and which powers to use in Neverwinter. Napkin math is plenty good enough to make gearing decisions here.
My rambling post was to show the OP that the system is more complicated and needlessly so since approximations, as you discuss, work just as well as exact calculations for all practical purposes.
I have further questions for you or those in the know regarding buffs and debuffs, mostly related to timings.
Firstly, does the ability that places a stack (eg HV/PF/HP) gains immediate benefit from it or is it the next skill to be used that gains the +damage? Are there any exceptions?
At what point are the damage dealt numbers adjusted with respect to calculations of buffs and debuffs? Is the damage rolled when the ability is cast or when the damage is dealt?
Scenario 1: If the CW casts Sing, and during the animation (before numbers hit) HG is cast (+30% damage) is the sing damage increased? (0 or +30%?)
Scenario 2: If the CW casts Sing, and during the animation (before numbers hit) DC casts divine glow on mob only (+15% damage taken) before sing hits? (0 or +15%)?
I just want to check the optimal timing/ rotation for debuffs to squeeze the most DPS out of the CW, basically whether to hold off the most damaging ability till buffs have finished or whether one can afford to cast the slowest skills first and proc all the other +DPS feats and debuffs (eg Frozen power transfer/Destructive wizadry/RoE) before numbers hit. (And obviously singularity is an example because of its long animation and not because we use it for dps).
As for DoTs such as CoI, is it safe to assume that once they have started ticking further damage buffs on you/ debuffs on target will not increase DoTs any further?
Appreciation in advance.
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2. Target calculations are based on when an ability deals damage. You can tell this most easily from casts like Shard of the Avalanche. Hence in your scenarios, +30% +15% respectively. You should note, however, that while damage debuffs may apply, overlapping control may not. For example, Arcane Singularity is notorious for control aspects of other spells not applying throughout its duration.
3. As for CoI, damage debuffs from different sources (not necessarily different players though), especially different types, all stack without exception. So, you can have Thaum CoI + Divine Glow + High Prophet + Wicked Reminder + Mark + Tide of Iron + Crushing Pin + Student of the Sword + High Vizier etc. There does appear to be a maximum debuff where further damage to the target starts to do strange things (like make the mob immune to damage), but that limit is very distant indeed - something like +700%.
Last page there was mentioned: Does this mean ArPen currently isn't working?
On Live, when last tested, many CW Powers (as well as DC Powers) do not benefit from ArP: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?518391-CW-receive-no-benefit-from-Armor-Penetration-for-40-Powers
The ArP mechanic itself works though.
Not just control aspects. Try casting Sudden Storm on a mob as they're being pulled. The only damage I see is from my Terror enchant - no main damage at all. Instead of of 10k per opponent you get a 100
<edit> btw does anyone know what mitigation the duergar in the Iron Tabernacle have? It appears to be enormous.
</edit>