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Just a thought about "righteousness" DC debuff
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
So this came to me yesterday when PVPing.
The entire reason DC was given "righteousness" was because they did not want clerics having a gold advantage since they could heal themselves and not have to rely on potions as much, essentially saving them in PVE alot of gold over time.
Well I pvp with friends and I have to say a LARGE majority of the time we play, guess who wins? The TR. Frankly because of lashing blade is a "kill on command" when they choose, its typically very hard ON AVERAGE to score the most points in pvp.
Then it made me wonder, how big of a difference does it make pvping, getting the blues and selling them so I started to ask around.
On NON TR characters you might see an average of anywhere from 50-200 gold. Myself, average about 50 gold on each of my non TR characters.
I asked a TR in our guild, he has over 500 gold and has donated a ton to our guild bank. I think went on MY TR, and he has twice as much gold as my other characters with LESS play time....
So here is the question:
IF DCs got a 40% self heal debuff because they didnt want them being more gold rich or having an advantage, why does it make sense then that the issue isnt addressed for the TR class in pvp being awarded a blue to sell each pvp match....
I SUGGEST REMOVING RIGHTEOUSNESS
The entire reason DC was given "righteousness" was because they did not want clerics having a gold advantage since they could heal themselves and not have to rely on potions as much, essentially saving them in PVE alot of gold over time.
Well I pvp with friends and I have to say a LARGE majority of the time we play, guess who wins? The TR. Frankly because of lashing blade is a "kill on command" when they choose, its typically very hard ON AVERAGE to score the most points in pvp.
Then it made me wonder, how big of a difference does it make pvping, getting the blues and selling them so I started to ask around.
On NON TR characters you might see an average of anywhere from 50-200 gold. Myself, average about 50 gold on each of my non TR characters.
I asked a TR in our guild, he has over 500 gold and has donated a ton to our guild bank. I think went on MY TR, and he has twice as much gold as my other characters with LESS play time....
So here is the question:
IF DCs got a 40% self heal debuff because they didnt want them being more gold rich or having an advantage, why does it make sense then that the issue isnt addressed for the TR class in pvp being awarded a blue to sell each pvp match....
I SUGGEST REMOVING RIGHTEOUSNESS
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You suggest removing righteousness, yet only thing that is out of balance in your post is TR. All other characters have about the same amount of gold, right?
So. Instead of removing righteousness SHOULDN'T YOU REMOVE ROGUES?
So the problem you potentially refer to is the regen stat as opposed to Righteousness
OMG your right, remove TRs!!!!
I have friends who play DC at "high level pvp" - Ill throw that out since that seems to be a term in this game. Who has suggested that all the classes are getting major damage buffs in the next expansion. A few examples are:
GWFs new paragon path. The latern artifact = a 16% damage boost every 20 seconds. Passive Regen easily available through boon and artifacts allowing players to slot more offensive in arp/crit/power because they dont have to sacrifice anything for the regen now.
And there are not as many damage resistance or "resilience" increases. DC got exaultation which is a very nice ability how ever have to get up something like 11% DR to get that.
DCs are actually pretty easy to kill, maybe not 1v1 but 2v1 they drop VERY fast.
I just wanted to point out that the reason DCs had this debuff is really stupid and honestly should be removed...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I feel that righteousness did not affect my pve b/c most dc's lvl up without using healing spells (chains, daunting light, etc). I still never used pots... so...
I feel like it's to make sure we aren't op in the fact that we never die... even with that debuff i rarely die
I don't have a TR, so no chance to compre about the stealthy issue - but comparing one of my DCs and my GWF, hitting level 60 / ending the basic storyline, I think the DC got about 2 or 3 gold more...
On the other side: no sink for gold, so who cares about?
Got another 30 gold during the last few days on my main (DC), and I've restocked my potions and kits during that time...
changing balance by "money" reasons... think that's one of the trollished topics I've seen this year.
In a nutshell, Righteousness should go, no it won't break the game. It will just make for a friendlier experience for DC's across the board.
2. The DCs in PVP that can stand their ground don't rely on their abilities so much but on gear and the feats to bump up their defense and regen. They are specced for PVP. And that is the main problem. If you want to PVE you have to spec much differently than for PVP as a DC. Other classes can do quite well in PVP with their PVE builds, DCs die there very fast, once they are specced for healing (for dungeons) - ESPECIALLY because they hardly can heal themselves up. When a TR picks on you, you are dead in this cases. Seriuosly, a healer should NEVER die in a 1v1 against another class unless the other class had some advantage of a very high first strike. In other MMOs I played no one really tried to kill a healer 1v1. Even if it took ages the healer in the end would have won. But most likely the other guy just ran away after 3 minutes fighting.
Really? Where did you get that info from? Because all I hear it was about the gold gain (you know, DCs using less potions). But even if it is true... well now we have AS nerfed and clerics i pvp are free kills except of a really small percent of tanky regen clerics.
DC PvP is not as bad as it is believed, but it is not as enjoyable as other classes for instance. They do need another game defense mechanism on top of their dodges. If their main role is to keep people alive and survive focusing, it would be nice to have another at-will/encounter that helps them do so.
I have to say though, that in constructed PvP a good DC is an absolute must-have.
Despite my great respect towards ayroux, i would say his reasoning behind suggested righteousness removal is dumbass.
I would speak about that in terms of build diversity. Have to admit, I dont know much about DCs, but as far as I heard, most popular builds in pvp are those with tons of defense/deflect/regen. They just can't afford any significant investments into offensive/healing stats, since righteousness debuff rendering it useless in terms of personal survability. It sucks, imo.
More so, as many of us know, usually healer is target #1 in most MMOs. In Neverwinter current meta #1 target is a bloody wizard. Why? Cos its easy to kill and it can do bad things, while alive. Clerics, on the other hand cant do $hit, except some kjewl pushbacks and astral shield.
P.S.
Talking about TRs - well, everyone knows them overpowered. And always were, and, probably, always will. Too high killing potential for such survability (ITC + high deflect % chance + 75% deflect severity FOR FREE, on top of standart defensive options, like regen/defense/hp). And melee range is not a f-ing excuse.
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I agree on CW focus, since they are an easy kill ,but I disagree that DCs can't do $hit. At least in premades, they are the reason mid-node is kept or lost and they can contest 1v1 with those Regen Sentinels for ever. Right now, they are more popular than CWs in high end PvP, due to their survivability...but I can't really see what the reference to CW has to do with the whole subject.
P.S: The only Rogues that seem to be way OP are the ones with Perfect Vorpal. Actually giving Perfect Vorpal to a class that has an inherent 50%-ish crit chance and an almost 'insta' crit for 20k isn't the best of the ideas.
I meant, in current meta, if you leave DC for #2 or #3 instead of #1 and focus dem wizards first its ok and wont affect ability to clear mid THAT much. But if only they could heal themselves as much as effective as others (read: no righteousness debuff) it would allow them to go for more healing, instead of regen/def/deflection/hp. Resulting in more effective heals on teammates and stronger overall presence.
CW reference: if ^above^ thing would happen, it would move focus from CW to DC as #1 priority target. Personally, i'm rather tired of being red rag in Pm v Pms! :mad:
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In general, a small rework on DCs is needed. Not entirely sure what direction should be followed, but a first step is to create a typical healer archetype like in all other MMOs, since people tend to roll healers based on what they expect to play. Imho, rolling DEX/CON halflings just to maximise deflect chance is ridiculous.
HaHaHaHa.... sry but i laugh... remove DC because their presence is OP?? *facepalm*
DO U EVER PLAY PVP IN NEVERWINTER ?? Or u keep on playing with those cleric in the highest tier in game??
As far as spending gold on potions, well, I have more gold than I know what to do with. I kind of wish I did have something to spend it on. (But I think something's changing there with Shadowvar?) I'm only mid-level starting up a GWF, but my feeling is that outside of dungeon bosses the game is pretty net-positive on picking up potions from drops.
PvP is a different story. I don't play it so I can't say much. Except I don't know why they can't just make different rules for it (they already even out levels and have special potions...).
DCs are fine in PvE, and they are by far the most easy going class. They don't have to compete with anyone for their role, they are invaluable when they are good, and getting good in PvE is like...a walk in the park.
Righteousness removal (or gear stats rework) for DC is discussed ONLY for PvP.
The problem with righteousness is it doesn't really make any sense, and it makes some of our powers actively stupid. Rather than come up with more intuitive methods for controlling healback benefits, they just stuck a flat broad-spectrum nerf to all heals.
Case in point: cast a healing word on someone? They gain 100% of the benefit, you get 60% of the benefit. Not too shabby: if you're healing a lot of people then you should have no problem keeping yourself topped up as a side effect.
Now, cast a healing word on YOURSELF (either because OMG OMG I'M STANDING IN FIRE WTFFFF or -more commonly- the targeting system spazzes out and decides that "no, that TR is not what you're aiming at"), and ......you get 60% of the benefit. And that's all. You literally get two and a half times the amount of total healing if you cast it on anyone other than yourself.
See, a better system would be to simply nerf the amount of healback you get, from the skills that give it, since healback should be a nice freebie for healing someone else, rather than a core selfheal value.
I.e. cast soothing light on someone, you get bonus heals (maybe 20-40%) for yourself! Cast soothing light just on YOURSELF, you get the full healing, but no free bonus heals.
PvP is pretty much the only reason people ever cry for nerfs in almost every MMO that has it as a "feature." Personally I don't why devs for games like this bother with it, they obviously don't consider it a high priority and as much as the pvp community like to big themselves up as the driving force of the game...no, they're just not. It just seems that way because they complain the most.
I am 100% sure that if they keep track of where their profits come from, they will find out that most of their ZEN purchase has been turned to gear worn by people who almost exclusively PvP. Also, NW's combat system is SO good, that not supporting PvP would be a waste of such a fluid battle system.
Bottomline, no change happens with PvE in mind, and no matter if there are 2 or 102 maps for PvP...it will be the major factor of class balancing and incoming boosts and nerfs.
See how people reacted to High Vizier or Shield nerf for the CW and how they are going to react if...(let's say) Lashing Blade's damage is cut to 50% or Shocking Execution being affected by Defense.
Dungeon bosses never complain on forums.
As many have stressed on these forums, we are not excellent healers but we are fairly good at buffing damage mitigation. When you think about it in that context, Righteousness makes even less sense. If they wanted to nerf us right, they'd make a DC's own Astral Shield and Foresight 40% less effective.