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Reaping Strike and Possible Solutions for GWF's
lobo0084
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 663 Bounty Hunter
I love Great Weapon Fighters. I decided I love them so much, I'm going to have one of each paragon path capstone, giving me a more detailed experience in every level of GWF play.
But as I'm leveling, I've come to realize a few issues with the initial power options available to new players, and how they not only affect our classes playability in the early levels, but also the overall attitude of our playerbase. Plus, as I tend to enjoy almost every ability GWF have available, Reaping Strike is absolutely my least used power and the one I see as the worst of our lot. So I've come up with a few options on fixing it, moving it, or outright replacing it.
What is Reaping Strike?
In Neverwinter Online, Reaping Strike is an at-will that Great Weapon Fighters automatically unlock rank 1 of at around level 4. This is while new characters are still in the opening quest. If the player holds the appropriate mouse button, the attack will build between three stages, increasing it's damage output with each stage. It takes about 2.5 seconds to fully charge. Any damage received while the character holds the mouse button helps generate more determination (used to launch Unstoppable) than the normal rate.
Where does Reaping Strike come from?
In the Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Deluxe Player Guide, page 77, Reaping Strike sees it's name in lights. A level 1 At-Will that effects one enemy, and acts as a very straightforward attack. Basic damage role. There is no other function to Reaping Strike. As with almost every single power, Cryptic borrowed from the name, and incorporated their own take on it's effect on gameplay.
Why have Reaping Strike?
It's important to give new players a basic experience for the class and how it will grow in it's opening abilities. For GWF, this means we see some single target attacks, some cone-based AOE attacks, and a short selection of attacks that have CC bonuses. Reaping Strike, along with Not So Fast, allow new players to get a taste for the AOE capabilities of GWF. I believe maintaining a cone-based AOE at-will for the first levels is very important for character development at this early stage.
What is wrong with Reaping Strike?
Two issues stand out the hardest, and a third is more a matter of my personal viewpoints. The first issue is simple: we have an ability who's main purpose in gameplay is generating determination, available to players for six levels while they have absolutely no determination to gain. In short, they don't see any benefit other than a slow attack, and can often lose interest in the ability before it really proves useful.
Secondly, the ability forces new characters to sit still and take damage, something that gives GWF the hardest problems in the early game. Since standing still in a crowd of enemies and popping your few precious potions doesn't make the smartest decision, most intelligent players will tend to avoid using this outside of specific situations.
Finally, my personal viewpoint: GWF players should have it reinforced, from the very beginning, that the class is a Fighter above all else. That a GWF still is primarily a defender. Our powers generally fail at this, with the exceptions of Unstoppable and Reaping Strike. But Reaping Strike does it half heartedly. With a small power change, not only can we teach new GWF's to better hone their character to the defender role, we can nudge the class into useful territory for PvE encounters.
The Solution(s)?
The simplest fix would simply to swap Wicked Strike's effect with Reaping Strike. Save the utility at-will for when a player may be better versed in the class and put it to use. Stop players from having to spend a power point in an ability they may never use. Provide that cone-based AOE option that defines over half of our classes attack capabilities. And give the new player a very cool animation that fits alongside Sure Strike very well, while not forcing them to sit still and face tank when their gear, and potions, aren't suitable for it. To follow this change, though, I would increase the base amount of damage dealt by this attack (and all our at-will and encounter AOE, for that matter) by a fair amount. GWF AOE is significantly lacking in output.
Option two of my suggestions keeps reaping strike primarily as it is currently, but adds functionality on top of it. Not only does it generate determination and fire off a nice attack, but it adds a 5/10/15% DR while the mouse button is held. While this doesn't increase the rather poor damage output of the attack, it does turn the utility at-will into an effective defensive power. This helps new player lifespan a bit, keeps the cone-based AOE, and reinforces the defender role of the class more effectively, while not stepping on GF toes. I would, however, only allow the DR boost and determination boost to be effective while the skill is charging, and stop both when the ability fully charges (automatically launching the attack). This is my personal favorite option.
Option three would be to completely remove and replace the skill outright with something new. I've always been quite partial to giving GWF's some means of a mid-ranged hand-axe throw power, myself
Tweaks and GWF's
Unlike many, I do not feel the GWF class needs a complete overhaul. I see a few glaring weak spots in our powers lineup (Reaping Strike, Punishing Charge, Battle Fury), but I don't feel the class is so broken or useless. In fact, I feel that we simply need a little refinement and small touches here and there to really polish the cut stone into a fine gem.
But as I'm leveling, I've come to realize a few issues with the initial power options available to new players, and how they not only affect our classes playability in the early levels, but also the overall attitude of our playerbase. Plus, as I tend to enjoy almost every ability GWF have available, Reaping Strike is absolutely my least used power and the one I see as the worst of our lot. So I've come up with a few options on fixing it, moving it, or outright replacing it.
What is Reaping Strike?
In Neverwinter Online, Reaping Strike is an at-will that Great Weapon Fighters automatically unlock rank 1 of at around level 4. This is while new characters are still in the opening quest. If the player holds the appropriate mouse button, the attack will build between three stages, increasing it's damage output with each stage. It takes about 2.5 seconds to fully charge. Any damage received while the character holds the mouse button helps generate more determination (used to launch Unstoppable) than the normal rate.
Where does Reaping Strike come from?
In the Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Deluxe Player Guide, page 77, Reaping Strike sees it's name in lights. A level 1 At-Will that effects one enemy, and acts as a very straightforward attack. Basic damage role. There is no other function to Reaping Strike. As with almost every single power, Cryptic borrowed from the name, and incorporated their own take on it's effect on gameplay.
Why have Reaping Strike?
It's important to give new players a basic experience for the class and how it will grow in it's opening abilities. For GWF, this means we see some single target attacks, some cone-based AOE attacks, and a short selection of attacks that have CC bonuses. Reaping Strike, along with Not So Fast, allow new players to get a taste for the AOE capabilities of GWF. I believe maintaining a cone-based AOE at-will for the first levels is very important for character development at this early stage.
What is wrong with Reaping Strike?
Two issues stand out the hardest, and a third is more a matter of my personal viewpoints. The first issue is simple: we have an ability who's main purpose in gameplay is generating determination, available to players for six levels while they have absolutely no determination to gain. In short, they don't see any benefit other than a slow attack, and can often lose interest in the ability before it really proves useful.
Secondly, the ability forces new characters to sit still and take damage, something that gives GWF the hardest problems in the early game. Since standing still in a crowd of enemies and popping your few precious potions doesn't make the smartest decision, most intelligent players will tend to avoid using this outside of specific situations.
Finally, my personal viewpoint: GWF players should have it reinforced, from the very beginning, that the class is a Fighter above all else. That a GWF still is primarily a defender. Our powers generally fail at this, with the exceptions of Unstoppable and Reaping Strike. But Reaping Strike does it half heartedly. With a small power change, not only can we teach new GWF's to better hone their character to the defender role, we can nudge the class into useful territory for PvE encounters.
The Solution(s)?
The simplest fix would simply to swap Wicked Strike's effect with Reaping Strike. Save the utility at-will for when a player may be better versed in the class and put it to use. Stop players from having to spend a power point in an ability they may never use. Provide that cone-based AOE option that defines over half of our classes attack capabilities. And give the new player a very cool animation that fits alongside Sure Strike very well, while not forcing them to sit still and face tank when their gear, and potions, aren't suitable for it. To follow this change, though, I would increase the base amount of damage dealt by this attack (and all our at-will and encounter AOE, for that matter) by a fair amount. GWF AOE is significantly lacking in output.
Option two of my suggestions keeps reaping strike primarily as it is currently, but adds functionality on top of it. Not only does it generate determination and fire off a nice attack, but it adds a 5/10/15% DR while the mouse button is held. While this doesn't increase the rather poor damage output of the attack, it does turn the utility at-will into an effective defensive power. This helps new player lifespan a bit, keeps the cone-based AOE, and reinforces the defender role of the class more effectively, while not stepping on GF toes. I would, however, only allow the DR boost and determination boost to be effective while the skill is charging, and stop both when the ability fully charges (automatically launching the attack). This is my personal favorite option.
Option three would be to completely remove and replace the skill outright with something new. I've always been quite partial to giving GWF's some means of a mid-ranged hand-axe throw power, myself
Tweaks and GWF's
Unlike many, I do not feel the GWF class needs a complete overhaul. I see a few glaring weak spots in our powers lineup (Reaping Strike, Punishing Charge, Battle Fury), but I don't feel the class is so broken or useless. In fact, I feel that we simply need a little refinement and small touches here and there to really polish the cut stone into a fine gem.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Post edited by lobo0084 on
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Comments
As a destroyer in BiS gear I find nowadays I get parties as a replacement of the TR position in a party.. My single dps isn't far behind a TR now plus my aoe dps is alot higher.. Plus I can make most the runs that people pt TRs for..
However put my in average gear this wouldn't happen..
Now reaping strike is a complete pile of ****
The time to charge this at will is horrendous.. And given its low dps.. Not allowing the toon to move.. It is a complete waste of time.. But hey lets face it WMS is the only good at will we have.. Even sure strike is horrible.. It's dps Is something like 15% of a TR at will.. I very very rarely even use sure strike. I find even using WMS on a boss is better in most situations to at least you can debuff the boss for encounters..
What we need is a better single target dps at will... Maybe one that can also stack threat given this at will is only used on a single target..
And we need at least one more high dps aoe encounter.. We are one short in this area
And at least one good daily.. I mean seriously right now all our dailies are bad. Only decent one being crescendo and that's a single target for an aoe class....
The class does need alot of work!
We've brought this up in several posts, and I disagree with you wholeheartedly. It would be nice to generate threat and keep mobs on us. But your looking at the class wrong if you think a destroyer should ever come close to doing the damage of a TR. Read up in my signature. Trying to turn a class who's primary role is Defender, into a competition for a top-of-the-game Striker, is not what we should be fighting for.
It's quite arguable that your probably using broken mechanics (tene dot stacking) to even come close.
We are Fighters.
Again, you're trying to turn GWF's into Barbarians. If you look at my main, Gral, he's a half-orc who went full destroyer spec with a heavy axe and all his gear turned into Barbarian gear. I made the same mistake. But there is a fundamental difference. We aren't strikers. Our at-wills shouldn't do the damage the TR at-wills should.
I will agree that WMS is a very effective ability, but considering it's a paragon option, it won't be available for everyone. Maybe other paragons will have go-to at-wills like swordmaster, who knows.
But stacking threat with our at-wills? I love that suggestion. Both to the AOE's and single-targets. What we hit, should WANT to hit us back.
Just, do a little research with me. Read up on where I'm going here. We have limited AOE, generally in a cone-shaped path. We have longer reach than GF's. But doing damage is NOT our focus. We are fighters who simply traded the shield for a longer sword.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Also I'm not suggesting our at wills should have the dps of a tr.. But 15% is a joke in comparison. Also you will be very surprised with a GWF single target dps with the right build. This is why I get alot of people asking me to CN now.. Cause I can virtually be a tr that is capable of self healing at Draco.. I don't get invites to tank. I get invites to dps.
And then you have the control wizard who is capable of being being extremely good at control or aoe dps or single target dps... Jut by changing their rotation.. So that shoots the GWF in the foot
I agree with the 'threat assessment', pardon the pun. Yes, we need more. It's the main thing hindering GWF at this point in time.
Nor am I surprised at what a GWF can do with our damage output. As a sentinel with 7's and no tene's, using only a GPF, I rank 3rd. Behind either the two CW's, or the CW and TR. Third. Every skirmish, and every dungeon. And this is with all defensive heroic feats, too. My destroyer build, which I am currently recasting, can do a lot better. And us standing in for TR's on bosses is something even a 12k GS sent can do. It simply takes us longer.
Now, as far as what the CW can do ... that I'm not going to get into. Different issue altogether, and not a GWF's fault or problem.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
And by being a GWF capable of a tr role only a destroyer can really do this for a couple of reasons.. First sentinel dps is just too low and because of this will on occasions lose Agro of a boss to a CW during a dps phase... As a dps destroyer I am now capable of holding complete threat of a boss.. Without a tr or CW accidentally pulling it off.. But as I said this is only capable through stacking massive amounts of dps for GWF..
Again, the devs design is pretty straightforward. We even do have threat generation bonus feats, unlike any other class besides GF (Sentinel: Intimidation, Defiance, Grudge Style). It's simply not enough. Not even close. And those feats, outside of Grudge Style, lack a lot in the way of substance compared to others. Threat should be streamlined into our class, not an accessory.
And again, I only 'accidentally' lose boss aggro on rare occasions, too. I can't keep it out of a TR's hands if he's on the same boss, but I can keep it out of anybody elses hands if nobodies fighting the boss.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
What I think would help it is, if GWF are to have a hit cap. Reaping Strike should have the highest hit cap.
And the determination gain while charging needs to be a bit higher as well as a slight damage increase.
Back in the day.
Sure Strike Worked like cleave and had a small area on every attack. And you Started with Wicked strike at lv 1 as your 2nd at will. Reaping strike came latter at lv 20.
But no one ever used reaping strike
So there solution make it level one so players would use it. And then abandon it as soon as possible.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I said in another topic that did not understand why certain players have invested in critical and not in recovery, already rejecting the idea being to create an alternate rogue (with all due respect to the merits of panda). But the company gave the ap nerf and released another set critical. Not released anything involving utility / threat but pure dps.
WHY NOT THE TECHNIQUE IS GOOD, but because it is something "out there", useless for pvp.is a technique that has everything to be our "Duelist's Flurry" in area. with the difference that the rogue has dodge and gwf nothing.
Be the shortage of ap / aoe / threat could be compensated in this technique. given the cake and the player who turn to learn to use.
Who in particular is this aimed at?
If it's me, then I don't get the reference. Sure, GWF's are defenders first. But unlike the triumvirate of MMO roles since WoW, defenders aren't supposed to have HAMSTER damage like tanks are. Defenders can even do alot of CC, heal themselves (and others, in the case of Paladins), provide group buffs, debuff, etc. Defenders simply have the priority of being tough to kill, and capable of defending their friends.
In the way of Marks, this means we do more damage to enemies who aren't fighting us. There are abilities as well that allow us to step in and take damage instead of a nearby ally. And finally, in paper-and-pen DnD that is, our positioning on the battlefield helps alot.
But our class also does a significant amount of damage, or should. I just argue against those who, like me not long ago, are pushing the GWF to be more a Barbarian, a full-fledged powerful striker, and trying to compete with TR's in the useless end-dungeon scoreboards.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
The problem here is that about 70%+ of the Neverwinter population uses those scoreboards to decide what classes they want to PuG with.
Another issue with all the 'secondary' effects of GWF powers (slow/stun/knowdown/etc) they don't work on PvE bosses. So having a class balanced around these powers that don't work where the fight counts (for PvE) doesn't 'really' balance the class. I for one, would prefer a couple of these power's secondary effects be removed and be straight damage.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
advantages:
range: it is literally a mix of "ibs + not so fast." Grab it has EVERYTHING around. Besides allowing attacks "from outside the red circle."
Threat by damage: 2 critical and Horde comes up on you.
Damage: ok, just ok.
disadvantages:
Speed / Exposure: is a disadvantage that we will use to our advantage. So weak, is likely to buffs. Slowing down will only cause problems in pvp.
Tune with weapon master / destroyer: you simply can not use a R.S after another without intersperse them with wms, otherwise lose the bonus.
Emergency changes:
1-reduce damage penalty vs multiple targets. If cw clean weakest enemies before we get to them, that at least we can take care of most resistant.
2 - While charging the coup, bonuses extend for 1 sec, being forced to hit someone.
3 - a bonus greater determination if you are interrupted while charging. the next attempt is unstoppable.
Possible improvements:
The gwf has two "emergencies" current.
Ap / threat.
I believe, beyond what I mentioned, we could:
1 - generate a small bonus "action point" for each target we hit after the first.
2-believe, after loading reaping strike longer than is necessary, we could begin to attract the bunch, with a kind of radiant effect.
Discoursed above all, the only hypothetical problem in pvp would be item 3 of improvements emergency. Moreover, it seems reasonable to me.
You are the conqueror that found that RS is good or you are next one that do not use WMS animation canceling ?
Damage is not ok it is too low this skill is HAMSTER, I test to use is long time ago because determination but it fail on this point too. For time that is needed to gain full bar RS I will do 3+ WMS so I will do with RS same dmg but not today.
Or you tried to say that this is bugged and work when you hit more than one target (everytime) ?
The problem with using this on boss is that Destroyer have 22-23k HP and they are not enough most of times because RS give nothing in defense so you probably can be death if boss hit you. From other side when/if Boss hit you you will gain enough Determination and you do not need RS but against WMS because WMS do debuff on boss and your SS do more dmg.
So read my first sentence and think why you spend your points on this useless skill.
2 - the executioner style does not a way to replace sure strike , only maximize aoe without losing quality single.
3 - damage on single. The point is to use the RS depends on a whole reeducation of the player / equipment . You need to learn " tactical moves " . . I do not have the gear powerful, ancient weapons , etc. . just say that now I'm not so dependent on encounter / daily masses to take high damage , which pleases me because I have no ups and downs of damage , but constant. My record one hit single in party, was 34k with RS . I do not know the average gwf top , but within my possibilities is ok .
Today I use the ibs priority to generete ap, using 2 dailys for "round " (if I use slam , you can do 3 , but I had fun with avalanch of steel ) .
It would be up to some kind soul to do the tests with the appropriate enchants ( in case a vorpal ) .
4 - boss: Inside my vision, the gwf should not be the bosses killer. It's what we're left with now. What I have done against humanoid bosses, more fun than to be effective, is to use punishing charge to dodge. If you charge during the encounter, reduces time loading ... besides being something rockman / megaman ... hahah
I will not say that I do a better job than against rogue bosses. But I have left to be desired, with the advantage that it can still kill enemies around depending on the clutter. the downside is that I will necessarily attract because of the critics, then, no, overall, a rogue is better (and why improvements are possible).
Summary: If you, like me, afraid to give up the defense (I am 42% being destroyer) then it is an option of damage, BUT it needs improvement to create Dilemmas.
* it took me a week to learn to use. first with dummies, then sharandar (where the interruption is constant) and then dd (not yet entered into cn). test for a week and realize what I mean.
Not sure the name of the creature , but it was in spell plague .
Consider this: my strength is only 6000 . My physical damage without the bonus destroyer , lie between RS , 4101-4582 ( ibs 4537-5269 . ) . Unstoppable , 3200/3600 , and can inflict 3/4 attacks.
Do not remember for sure which were the aoe damage , but it was something like 3333 maximum , ie , more than a hypothetical takedown vs up to 5 opponents .
And I have a slight impression that the Atwill is very sensitive to some our bonus / combat advantage .
Anyway : why think for damage is " ok " , although it was interesting to eliminate that natural reduction of damage against more than one opponent .
Taking the limit of targets also would be nice but it does not seem urgent given the quality of action current cw (it's not a competition , it's a balance .) The best we can do now is to buy the fight directly with stronger enemies , like the rogue . He focused on the single / smoke bomb , we tank / aoe.
I must say that is a function even cooler than before ( picking up trash ) ... but it is some enhancements to execute it satisfactorily .
Summary: It's a secret weapon? No. is in the right place? No. but considering its almost impossible to use in pvp and shortcomings of the current gwf in pve, nothing prevents it from becoming a means of balance / dilemmas.