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GF vs Dungeon Mechanics
warbong1
Member Posts: 28 Arc User
I just recently returned to neverwinter after leaving during the AH debacle way back when. Let me say that I really liked this game mainly because of the fluid combat and an end game that consists of dungeons and not raids to get uber gear. I just can't commit the time to raiding anymore. So in a nut shell neverwinter fits my req's almost perfectly.
So returning, I decided to keep the dust on my 60 CW and start fresh with a new GF. Leveling was fun and the dungeons were as enjoyable as I remember. However I quickly got the eye opener as to the GF's party role during most boss fights which is to kite adds for your life...and by for your life, I mean stand still for a moment and you find yourself standing in a sea of red aoe's that quickly shreds your guard then you. Once I got to t2's this became so prevalent that I questioned "what exactly am I tanking here?" Answer "Outside of packs of trash, very little".
This got me wondering why the designers would think GF's kiting adds around and around for 10mins on most boss fights would be fun, exciting and tanky. The plain fact is, on one or two bosses it might be, but on most it really really isn't. Very quickly I've come to realize that dungeon mechanics, as they are, cater to one class specifically. You guessed it. Now I'm not bashing CW's, like I said, I have one and they're fun as heck to play. No, I'm bashing on the fact that the game seems designed around them as far as dungeon mechanics go. CN anyone? And the reason is they're ranged, have tons of dps and cc, and they mesh perfectly with that sea of red and adds. GF's? ...not so much.
After mulling over alot of ideas, I could come up with one viable solution to the tanking problem without changing dungeon mechanics as they are. That is to change the guard mechanic so that it never breaks, or it lasts 90% longer, and we're immune to knockbacks and immobizes while its up. At the same time, make it so we cant attack while guarding. This would then allow us to hold our ground in the red and get a few shots in between without making us OP and most importantly...be able to TANK!
Anyways I'm fading fast so thats my 2cents....discuss
So returning, I decided to keep the dust on my 60 CW and start fresh with a new GF. Leveling was fun and the dungeons were as enjoyable as I remember. However I quickly got the eye opener as to the GF's party role during most boss fights which is to kite adds for your life...and by for your life, I mean stand still for a moment and you find yourself standing in a sea of red aoe's that quickly shreds your guard then you. Once I got to t2's this became so prevalent that I questioned "what exactly am I tanking here?" Answer "Outside of packs of trash, very little".
This got me wondering why the designers would think GF's kiting adds around and around for 10mins on most boss fights would be fun, exciting and tanky. The plain fact is, on one or two bosses it might be, but on most it really really isn't. Very quickly I've come to realize that dungeon mechanics, as they are, cater to one class specifically. You guessed it. Now I'm not bashing CW's, like I said, I have one and they're fun as heck to play. No, I'm bashing on the fact that the game seems designed around them as far as dungeon mechanics go. CN anyone? And the reason is they're ranged, have tons of dps and cc, and they mesh perfectly with that sea of red and adds. GF's? ...not so much.
After mulling over alot of ideas, I could come up with one viable solution to the tanking problem without changing dungeon mechanics as they are. That is to change the guard mechanic so that it never breaks, or it lasts 90% longer, and we're immune to knockbacks and immobizes while its up. At the same time, make it so we cant attack while guarding. This would then allow us to hold our ground in the red and get a few shots in between without making us OP and most importantly...be able to TANK!
Anyways I'm fading fast so thats my 2cents....discuss
Post edited by warbong1 on
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Comments
Maybe he could even throw his voice and make mobs attack each other because of a bad "yo momma" line...
However I agree with you that mechanics are broken. Unluckily most bossfights consist of massive add spawn as the only mechanic. Aggro is largely based on damage, that's why in order to tank your primary focus as a GF would have to be DPS --> with defensive spec and equipment you will neither get aggro nor do damage, so you are worthless to your party. Some months ago a patch increased all aggro gain on GF by 100%, GWF didnt get that, so tank-style GWFs are even less useful.
Even if you have enough damage to get the aggro your powers are limited to 3-5 targets, so sustaining aggro on more than 5 targets is not too easy. The reason why CW is doing so well is that many bossfights feature 10+/20+ adds and they are the only class that can control that many monsters. If bossfights changed to 1 boss + 2 elite cc-immune adds doing abilities the experience of tanking/offtanking would be much better.
There is a fine balance of skill needed to manage your threat and minimize it as needed. The idea of some of the skills in this game is to do that, but nobody bothers. The sheer amount of adds in this game makes it impossible to face-tank like you would in other games. The idea of an off-tank is sort of there, but not really.
and if there are adds then they are either set number or spawn with change of phase, not a boss fight where only 1 party member is actually fighting the boss
Neverwinter forced a lot of movement, as expected in an action-based MMO, but in the same time it's reducing the GFs mobility with his block system and slowing him down. The sheer number of adds here really favouring one class and deplacing GF in his tank role.
A few of the T2 Bosses are fun to tank but in general the game of run around pressing tab is a HAMSTER experience. Guess it is why a lot of groups don't bother with tanks, 3 x CW's + DC and TR and you pretty much have continuous Singularity and decent DPS.
now more to topic, sorry for my tangent. kiting sucks, hate it, but it is what it is. i love it when i get surrounded by tons of mobs, singularity ready to dump tons of beasties in my lap... aoe threat/dps progression just itching to be fired out. it is all about play style and group mechanics folks. you can take 5 players with identical characters and prob get 4 different tanks out of it. personally i run a dps heavy tank spec, running the tight rope on HP and mitigation, but i also have a guild that understands how to work with me and me with them. i believe we have some of the best healers out there. its not all about gear score and highest dps, it is about the group, not the individual. i will be the first to admit i had the WORST TIME EVER coping with not always tanking the boss, i fought it tooth and nail, still do most times. i will never ever proclaim i am the best, i am not that arrogant, i know there are far better players out there than myself.
i dont know if i have contributed to the conversation or started a completely different discussion, but i do know we need to hang in there and teach the people in this game how to follow a leader. tell the caster or the rogue or whomever, if they dont let ya grab agro you will let em die, see how fast their attitude changes. its pretty simple whether it is a tab pull, body pull or LOS with a combo of the others, no one should do it but a tank, unless otherwise requested. ok rant halted for now, please tell me what you think but i do request if you feel the need to flame me on this remember other people read these and i am trying to progress our cass not hold us back.
Anyway most of us are DPS spec because it's just better thing to the group. I agree that there are some instances where GF is not really needed but still if we all follow the rule than there will be only 3 classes in NW - CW, DC & TR (come to think about it TR can be dumped for yet another CW...), depends on the play style of course.
I agree with magus that tank should always go 1st, this is our role duh...I played yesterday with the DC that didn't use his AS through the whole dungeon run! ok ok...it was Pirates so it wasn't really needed but still...imagine a CW not using steal time or his beast dailies, well yeah
Now I'm not a experienced tank by any means, but still when you follow few basic rules game can be both fun & effective.
Go 1st & TANK, group up your targets for CW's or GWF's AOE's, keep an eye on your more squishy mates & protect them.
All above will NOT hold you to smash mobs at the same time. Properly geared GF can be a real DPS machine.
Good luck & cya in game:)
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
and if u have CC of 4 CW in most dungeons u dont need DC so it can be dropped for 5th CW
But that's a minor problem. GF are useless in most dungeon because the other classes(TR, DC and CW) can easy deal with the damage - melee attackers need to get close to them, but dodging/teleport them away from them. Second they can CC them to avoid this. A TR has to many survive skills for bosstanking, that the GF is useless. How many bosses exist, that execute any teammate with 1 hit? MC can do it, but now the clue: Melee... See GWF sprinting away - okay they can deal at no time damage other - but a Tr can use a daily, dodge away or simply ItC or go stealth...
What the GF need are bosses that ONESHOOT people. Not with Melee attacks - no ranged attack he must have! IF he not, the CW, DC and the TR aren't in any danger! Second he must have a phase, that have several attacks in it to avoid the one dodge attack tactic! THEN the game maybe need a GF. But so? Sometimes a nice to have, in most reason a ... oh other class.
If a tank loses agro of a single mob during a WHOLE INSTANCE he sucks, period! i dont care, im tired of complaining and whine, i've been playing tanks my whole life, heck, even in my early PnP days my favorite toons were tanky dwarfs, and tanking in this game is simply AWESOME, so intense, so demanding, so active! you must move a lot!!! in otherr games you just stand there, hit your buttons while healz do their part and your only focus of attention are the boss big attacks and your HP bar for pots, nothing else... here... you must get aware of the whole fight!!! mobs appear everywhere so you must be active and rush to them, mark them, when singu comes you treaten rush the pack, and then move to place the possible aoe attacks out of the line of your comrades, all while keeping the boss attacking you and no the CWs... controlling your attack animations so you are able to avoid some red zones instead of blocking them, and only block the unavoidable ones, making sure of not attacking more than once while doing so because attack from block is slow and does not allow you to keep moving... simply phenomenal feeling as a tank.
Problem, as someone said before... is people does not know how to freaking play, GWFs run always 5 miles ahead of the parties, DCs who are reactive and not proactive, CWs who can't control or are not smart enough to get out of red zones, and everybody always playing for themselves and not for the team, but really, really, GFs and GWFs are the freaking worst players of them all, i understand that casual players pick the mighty warriors... but c'mon, at least make an effort to learn how to play in groups!
5 MUST DO as a GF:
1.- ALWAYS take the passive feat of potent challenge, you live and die by threat generation.
2.- ALWAYS run on enhaced threat, same as above. (also, anything that adds threat to you, like battle trample)
3.- You are taking the agro, so you're supposed to take a lot of damage, get yourself 200 pots at least and lots of kits, also, greater health stones are like 100k in AH... dont be cheap!
4.- Doping is bad in sports, but no antidoping tests in there, use all the pots you can and buffs ALWAYS, makes you stronger, stronger= better.
5.- TALK!!! be a general, give tips, orders, refuse to continue if people dont listen, you're the freaking tank, you rule, this is a social game, so talk, play as a group, and all will be a lot better, if you do the pulling you will have it easier to gather and hold agro.
Anyway, i feel that our GFs are even a bit OP, not as OP than CWs but not really far of them, you do stupid tons of DPS, single target or AoE, the threat generation on a good build is stupid high, our gear is awesome (indomitable champion, Knight's captain, timeless hero are all awesome, stalwart was stupidly op, the "useless" ones are also good!) we do great in PvE and in PvP... whoever complains about GF should get a reality check.
Once you start from that perspective, the game becomes much more fun and exciting! Like frarii said, you then learn to play super aggressively and that in turn raises your threat, damage and utility to the group.
The correct issue has already been raised by ladysylvia. It is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the GF class, it is the vast majority of the content to date is not suited to a strong single target shield-using tank. So, you have to adapt, and yes, you have to learn to be a strong kiter for some limited situations since you are on the class with the strongest kiting skills.
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That said, once you become comfortable with your GF, the Guard does have its uses outside of avoiding large one-off boss/elite attacks.
For example, you can use it in conjunction with Mark on fights where single or few adds spawn, e.g. instead of running around like a chicken on Epic Spellplague and you already have 2x melee on boss, you can Mark the blue dangerous adds as they appear to bring them to the spot close to the lava where they can be pushed off by your CW.
Perhaps what is needed is a list of situations where any GF of any spec would find Guarding most useful in the current game. A Guarding guide, if you will!
Otherwise, I am with frarii on this one. Most GFs I have ever seen are just terribad with not an ounce of adaptability and with horrible, horrible builds! This is despite having some of the strongest gear for one class in the game. It is quite amazing the degree of difference of players on GF class compared to within all other classes.
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In PvP, by contrast, Guard is ridiculously useful. It takes quite some skill to use your Guard correctly there, e.g. interweaving Guarding with gap closers to make it all but impossible for CW's to get even one Encounter to land on you as you close (Ray of Frost At-Will is a different matter altogether, but whatever, that's a different issue and thankfully most CW's do not use it or are too scared to stand still and use it).
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The permanent block and inability to attack while blocking proposals would interfere heavily with Prot and some Tactician specs because of their routine reliance on the blocking At-Wills since their guard lasts longer. These At-Wills are sometimes useful even for Conq. though significantly less so since they are not affected by weapon enhancements and their guard is like paper.
A permanent block would also make GF's too OP 1v1 in PvP, especially against ranged classes.
Yes, block should make a GF immune to knockbacks and immobilizes. In almost any situation I have ever encountered the opposite, it is a bug and should be reported. If a GWF can stand there unaffected in Unstoppable, then a GF should be able to block the CC as long as there is any Guard Meter (since the two classes are from the same core fighter).
- Learn to kite- really really well. This isn't just running in a circle, because you won't always HAVE a circle to run in. It's being able to pick up and HOLD aggro on stupid lots of mobs, while avoiding red, and to NOT pick up aggro on other ones (bosses, archers). There are a few tricks that will help- for example, most of the cast animations (most importantly, "Into the Fray") can be "short cut" by JUMPING and casting in mid air... they will still stop you when you land, but for a much shorter time than the whole wind-up-cast takes.
- Figure out what to block, what to avoid, and when to take the hits- your guard meter can take ~5 "big" hits before breaking, regardless of additional percentages on it; each takes like straight 18% i think? Note, quite a few enemies use combos that come in sixes... If you block a bunch of big damage hits (not necessarily stuns), you can recharge your daily FAST, then pop a shield regen ability, and use a power-pumped daily, rinse repeat, for more overall dps than if you'd just avoided using block at all. It's situational, wish the animation wasn't so slow, but I *like* the mechanic overall.
- Learn how tab targeting and social aggro works! Some mob "packs" are linked, most are not- you can do some really impressive splits if you get OUT of range (no cursor shows) of all but one mob that is at extreme range; tab and back up. Quite similar to /con splits in EQ... Being able to tab target adds without accidentally getting a bosses stupidly large hitbox instead (etc.) is also an acquired skill...
- Pick up the KC 4 piece set if possible; it won't help your DPS, but your group will LOVE you for the 60% power buff. Into the Fray is also appreciated, especially during coin runs in GG T1, etc. Potions and food can help make up for the slightly lower stats; you won't win the dps meters, but sometimes (most of the time) that's actually not very important anyway.
- Swap gear/armor and abilities by fight, try not to get into the one-set-fits-all-situations mindset. If there are ledges, use KBs and help clean up the trash. If there's lots of periodic AE dmg, abilities that give temp hit points to group help a bunch too. There's only a couple really useless abilities, but some are very situation specific. Swapping between kiting gear, dps gear, and tanky gear just improves your performance, and makes your job(s) easier, so why not?
Anyway, still learning this stuff, so apologies if any of the above is wrong/misleading/ill-advised. For Pvp? My only observation is to always kill the CWs, TRs, and DCs first. GWFs and GFs aren't as much fun to squish.
But as for passives - i change them depending on situation.