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The fix for tene
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
I made another thread about this, but I also have developed a SECOND fix for tenes i wanted to post....
EDIT: I have changed my idea behind this as my first will not work as planned.
The basic idea is that the tradeoff in almost ALL types of games is TANKY vs DPS...
They typically have an inverse relationship. The more tanky you are the less dps you have and vice versa.
Why is tene a problem?
Because it does not follow that guideline for balance...
It scales off your current hp MEANING that the more HP you can stack, the more damage Tene can do....
Basically, your saying the more tanky you can get, the more damage you can do with Tene.... That is completely backwards!
hency why tene damage NEEDS to be based on OFFENSIVE qualities/Characteristics NOT defensive ones like HP or defense or deflect etc (you get the idea)
My thought was tie it to weapon damage, another idea is a % of power... Another is to keep it as is, but only allow 1 to proc at once and base it on BASE HP instead of current HP (this means you cant change the amount of damage Tene does based on being mrre or less tanky)
Another option is that it could do a % of the enemies remaining HP. When they are full HP it will deal the most damage, when they are low, it will be much much less.
So instead of it based on YOUR HP its based on YOUR OPPONANTS HP...
This removes the tanky scaling for regen Sent GWFs....
This would actually promote people to NOT stack HP as high since tene would do MROE damage at full hp... Defense may become a better stat, same with deflect...
Just a few ideas....
EDIT: I have changed my idea behind this as my first will not work as planned.
The basic idea is that the tradeoff in almost ALL types of games is TANKY vs DPS...
They typically have an inverse relationship. The more tanky you are the less dps you have and vice versa.
Why is tene a problem?
Because it does not follow that guideline for balance...
It scales off your current hp MEANING that the more HP you can stack, the more damage Tene can do....
Basically, your saying the more tanky you can get, the more damage you can do with Tene.... That is completely backwards!
hency why tene damage NEEDS to be based on OFFENSIVE qualities/Characteristics NOT defensive ones like HP or defense or deflect etc (you get the idea)
My thought was tie it to weapon damage, another idea is a % of power... Another is to keep it as is, but only allow 1 to proc at once and base it on BASE HP instead of current HP (this means you cant change the amount of damage Tene does based on being mrre or less tanky)
Another option is that it could do a % of the enemies remaining HP. When they are full HP it will deal the most damage, when they are low, it will be much much less.
So instead of it based on YOUR HP its based on YOUR OPPONANTS HP...
This removes the tanky scaling for regen Sent GWFs....
This would actually promote people to NOT stack HP as high since tene would do MROE damage at full hp... Defense may become a better stat, same with deflect...
Just a few ideas....
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Stop wasting your time. It wont change and it won't get a "fix". PvP arguments is like a swamp, the more you argue about it the more you get drowned in it.
Hey Im not proposing them to remove it from the game, just CHANGE it so it actually works better for BOTH PVE and PVP.
I agree though, its like quicksand... the more you squirm, the more you sink...
Honestly though, what really drove this home for me was watching a team of 4 GTE users, all just focus 1 tanky character and they died within 2 seconds. Did it take coordination? Yes. Did it take skill? Not really. Was there anything they could have done to live? Nope. NO amount of DR can withstand that AND the burst capability of stacking them is just plain stupid.
I use them, and will continue to do so until they are adjusted or something better comes.
BUT, ill still propose a fix and hope they listen. The more people that bring this up that are REASONABLE about it, and not just flame QQ, the better chances they will listen.
I honestly feel like that would just make tenes stronger, and would push other enchants even farther out of the game. Think about that, ~500 damage on EACH AND EVERY hit. Rogues would literally nearly double their damage with 7gtenes and DF in dungeons.
Dude... Do the math, TRs would do <250 more each hit....
No they wouldn't, their damage is both of their daggers combined. Which is the EXACT SAME as the GWF class.
why is this such a bad idea ?
Hmmm... I have not tested this with terror, but I imagine you have.
I take back this idea then...
OVERALL, the idea is that Tene damage should NOT be based on a defensive stat (HP in this case) Its basically saying "the more tanky you are the more damage you do" which has always been the tradeoff in any game... not a best of both....
Good call though, Ill change the OP as this would clearly not work...
I feel like a decent change to them could be possibly leaving them where they're at, and making it a different type of damage. You see, necrotic damage is the only damage in the game that can go through resistances, this means it goes through SF proc, all immunes, ITC, etc. Make it a different type of damage, and therefore, allow it to be mitigated, and you will effectively make it as balanced as possible without extreme moaning. Maybe if you make it a different type of damage, buff them to 5% of current health too, because it would be possible to mitigate it.
I thought about this, Its not a bad fix tbh... Part of the issue with the enchant i feel is the burst damage and lack of DPS. Even doing what you suggest, its another 7k+ damage (mitigated down to what 4k?) Its still a good deal amount of burst. This IS an attractive option however IF you make the damage somehow scale based on power OR made ARP somehow play into it. It would provide some further benefit to stacking higher levels or either of those offensive stats.
You know as well as I tenes are horrible for PVE. So I was hoping to create a middle ground where its more sustained damage and less of a burst capability.
In the end, its honestly not a simple fix. Its a Greater enchant so it SHOULD be strong, however right now its just so far ahead of even R10s that it makes player not want to stack stats > tenes.
If it was not based on current HP, but based on some offensive measures... that could be great. Heck, even just saying it has a "Chance on hit to attack the other player with your weapon" or something, Then you can have power/arp/crit play into the whole thing. remove necro damage aspect.
There is alot you can do.
5% is high though... 5% of 37k = 1850*7= 12950. Add in DR of even 50% on tankier classes and its still 6.5k That didnt drop the damage that much....
Its a step in the right direction though!
I might have a solution. Make it so that it does something along the lines of .05% of your current health on every hit for a lesser, and scale it accordingly, like .1% for normal, and .15% for greater. This way, it would take around 20 hits for it to equal the total damage that you did from before, and cut the burst down considerably. OR you could make them do something like 10% of your total power on hit, but make it have like a 7 or 8 second internal cooldown. With that, you could keep it necrotic damage, but it would make it a bit stronger for the GF class, and make their builds even more cookie cutter with the feat that doubles their power stat.
Yeah, not bad. I like the power idea, the thing about the GF tree though is that if its based on each hit, eventhough GFs get massive power, they dont attack very fast, so that would probably balance it out.
10% of power would screw over Sent GWFs alot, and make it stronger for others. TRs would probably benefit the most as they can easily stack 5k power+ meaning each hit is 500 like my first post... GFs can get up to 6-7k power pretty easily even with tene and that would be 700 each hit, so while it would be alot of damage boost, they dont attack as fast as TR/GWF.
I feel like its close though... What if it were 15% of power but it wasnt necro damage... it counted as physical and could do damage with your ARP factored in AND your crit (so it could crit).
This way TRs that focus on stacking power massively lose ARP so while the damage looks like itll do 750, itll be more like 350 each hit. but can crit and benefit from Vorpal too...
If you balance power/arp you can get a sweet spot and also factor in crits too....
Lesser: 7%
Normal: 12%
Greater: 15%?
ICD: 8-10 seconds
AND allowing only 1 to proc at once... This would fix the burst ability
That way if in 10 seconds you dont get 7 procs because you dont attack fast enough to benefit. It would be better to tradeoff for crit/power/arp for the ones that DO proc to proc better.... and do more overall damage...
Also, DoTs cant proc, only at wills and encounters.
The only true problem I'm seeing with that, is that GF would completely dominate everything in PvP. They can easily stack up to 7k power without any radiant enchants. Then, if they are specced correctly, they will have in the range of 24 con, which is I believe 24% resistance ignored. 15% of 7k is 1050, then multiply that by 7, and you have bigger burst from tenes than you did before. Even if you make it so that they could only proc one at a time, it would still be stupidly strong for the GF class, and not nearly as strong for other classes, making it even more unfair.
With that being said, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the tooltip read "CURRENT" hp? Isn't that supposed to mean that the hp you currently have, not max hp? So with every hit you take you get weaker? If that's not entirely how they work, then maybe that can be a fix for them?
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf
Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf
Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling
Azaghal Belegost - 16.5k GF Dwarf
Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow
Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
Bro im giving you the benefit of the doubt because your lemonade, but your math is seriously off on this one.
They can stack up to 7k power at the loss (typically) of either Tene OR ARP/CRIT. For instance, MY GF with 6 GTE has <1000 crit so his crit is like 15% and he has <5k power and only about 1400 ARP.
None of those stats are impressive and he is pretty maxed out, even adding a few hundred power by swapping a few gear pieces out makes me drastically lose crit or ARP, both of which are pretty key in dealing damage.
Dex is the stat that gives resistance ignored and you get 1% for every point AFTER 10 so 24 Dex in MAX roll you can have as halfling and starting at 18 Dex which means your at 14% resistance ignored, and that is at a loss of Con and Power to get that. Is it worth it? I think so but its not as clear cut as you think, you kinda taking peoples stats without tene and throwing them on a character with tene. 6 offensive slots are what GFs have, others can get up to 7 so they have 1 less by nature as well. SO not 7, only rare GFs roll the offensive shield which you give up white a bit to get that 7th and typically its not worth it since its pretty crappy.
SO lets do your math, Well even say somehow they DO get 6k power which is pretty high for a tene user.
6k * .15 = 900 damage, THEN you factor in DR which brings it down to what? 600-700 range? The fact it can crit is cool but again 15% is nothing. So 600-700 damage on each hit where tene procs, GFs also have the SLOWEST attacks. As a TR or GWF you can literally attack 2x as fast meaning that on average a GF is going to get less tene procs especially if the CD is something like 8 seconds and you can only get 1 at a time. Bye the time your first tene is off CD again, youll probably on average have gotten like 3-4 procs, so your not gonna get 6 procs in 8 seconds MOST of the time. It just wont happen.
So this will cause MOST GFs to probably give up 1-2 tenes and so they CAN stack more power to get higher numbers each proc they DO get, but overall this is intended to BUFF the DPS of the enchant while removing the insane BURST it has.
I would even be in favor of making it radiant damage which ignores HALF of the targets DR, its still gonne come out to much less damage.
The other thing is they get double power ONLY when they have their guard meter full, if they are getting attacked at all, its most likely not full meaning that 6k power is now 3k power. Or that 7k power is now 3500.
When you think about TRs THAT is what I would worry about since flurry attacks SO stupidly fast, but again, stacking tene = WAY less stats. So while a TR can power stack up to 5k, they will have much lower crit AND arp so when you do the math there.
5k *.15 *7 = 5200 damage every 8-10 seconds extra and thats PRE mitigated, POST mitigation itll be much less. Thats a NON crit impact shot for a TR.
OVERALL,
Itll be MUCH better than it is now where its pure necrotic damage AND can all proc at once, AS it is currently a TR whose got 30k HP with 7 can CRIT an impact shot for 8-10k and have 7 tenes proc at once doing 6000 more damage in necrotic damage which just took you down to what 25%? And impact shot is a range ability that stuns when used in stealth too... Yeah GL with that, they still have 3 impacts OOS and havnt even used lashing OR ITC yet on you.
GWFs can ROAR you from a distance, interrupt you and deal 10k damage EASILY with that ability, well that took you down to what? 50-60%? from a ranged interrupt ability? That doesnt include their Takedown and flourish or IBS which if 1 of those crits your looking at another 5-8k easily in damage.
On as a GF, you lunge strike for 5k, bull rush knock back for 5k and you get 6 tene procs for 5400, thats 15k damage with NO crits and it was all done in 2 seconds AND your prone WITH Frontline surge STILL waiting for you...
Tooltip is correct, still doesnt matter when you kill someone in 3 seconds because of tene and they could do nothing about it.
See above post or look at things like this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEX1HJOt5Bc
I made this on my GWF, it showcases nice tene procs in a ton of different situations.
There isnt much you can do about 5k-7k in pure necrotic burst damage that hits you all at once, and since most classes can chain encounters when played right, your talking 20k damage easily or more.