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If you are a good tank....
yyrkoonstyphoon
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 231 Arc User
So what exactly does this mean? I have played other MMOs (DDO, DCOU in particular) and being a good tank meant being able to grab aggro and hold it for a given boss/adds and serve as a meat shield so the squishy folks could focus on other tasks, like killing what you have aggro for while a healer keeps you up. In DCUO in particular, this meant getting all the adds aggro as well as the boss and it had a lot to do with positioning, and controlling the position of the boss and adds.
In this game, the aggro mechanic seems to make this approach impossible, because you cannot hope to keep aggro over the massive dps other classes but out. In DDO, a dps toon could generally steal aggro from the tank, but most players knew that this was very bad and would do their dsp and allow the tank to keep the aggro. Again, it was more a cooperative thing, and there was an understanding that the tank needed to keep aggro and the healer should keep the tank alive.
In this game, it seems like a tank is not necessarily to grab the aggro, or 'tank the boss' can mean kite the boss all over the place. Most the dps folks simply try to burn down the boss and pull aggro, then get upset when they are one shotted..
So i ask, what does being a good tank mean in Neverwinter? I have played tanks in other games and tend to enjoy it, but i do not seem to get what being a 'good tank' means in this game. We have no hard pulls. We do not seem to have superior threat mechanics. What am i missing and is it that tanks functioned differently in WOW (which i never played) and this is my disconnect?
In this game, the aggro mechanic seems to make this approach impossible, because you cannot hope to keep aggro over the massive dps other classes but out. In DDO, a dps toon could generally steal aggro from the tank, but most players knew that this was very bad and would do their dsp and allow the tank to keep the aggro. Again, it was more a cooperative thing, and there was an understanding that the tank needed to keep aggro and the healer should keep the tank alive.
In this game, it seems like a tank is not necessarily to grab the aggro, or 'tank the boss' can mean kite the boss all over the place. Most the dps folks simply try to burn down the boss and pull aggro, then get upset when they are one shotted..
So i ask, what does being a good tank mean in Neverwinter? I have played tanks in other games and tend to enjoy it, but i do not seem to get what being a 'good tank' means in this game. We have no hard pulls. We do not seem to have superior threat mechanics. What am i missing and is it that tanks functioned differently in WOW (which i never played) and this is my disconnect?
Post edited by yyrkoonstyphoon on
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We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
i also really liked to play tank respect in Star Wars, the pve there i think beats neverwinter pve. because there they really made each class necessary for high hunts. and you really need 1 tank, 1~2 dps, 1 healer. and it is directly connected with their Q.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
goes for every class
GF's have shield (a powerful ability that protects them from damage coming from one (really three) directions. They stack high levels of defense, and sometimes deflect. Their overall damage resistance is very good. The real kicker, is they have at least two abilities which allow them to generate threat and hold aggro, one of which I know is in an AOE around them, giving them the ability to focus mobs on them. Finally, their damage output is a narrow cone or single target.
So that's a threat that pulls adds, and block which is great against anything that isn't behind them. Attacks which are best in one direction or target. Except for threat generation, GF's seem to be perfect for boss tanking. Except they don't generate enough single-target threat to keep the boss fighting them and not the TR. And because of their AOE threat being much better than GWF's, they are often forced to ADD kite (and they run so slow, and while running, block is useless).
GWF's, on the other hand, have great speed and maneuverability, many more AOE attacks (which are weaker than our single target), a few very poor threat generators (Daring Shout, essentially), and self-heal and higher DR burst with unstoppable. In practical use, GWF's are usually sent to attack the boss with the TR, due to our higher single-target damage output, or to attack individual 'annoyance' mobs like the archers in Frozen Heart or the totemists/warriors in MC, and in the latters case, keep them busy till the boss is dead and the rest of the party can help us.
Seems to me the solution to these discrepancies is to focus the GF on single-target threat that can pull threat from even the hardest hitting TR, and give the GWF's Daring Shout a threat boost, and AOE damage abilities a huge damage boost, so that we can gather and kite adds more capably.
Honestly, little tweaks. Let the threat generators have a 5 second lasting time, so that we can essentially 'pull' the mobs (however temporarily) off of the other classes, no matter how much damage that TR or CW or DC is doing.
This half-hearted, mixed up HAMSTER is pretty useless.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Generally speaking, a TR has enough lifesteal, deflect, dodge and damage output to solo any given boss this game has to offer. Especially if the boss has an astral seal on it. So boss tanking isn't really needed. Plus bosses aren't really the threat, it's all the adds. GFs can position themselves to gather adds, and take the hits first, plus they have pretty good AoE damage output and CC resist so they can move around either kiting vast numbers of adds, or just whaling on them when the CWs collect them, and getting hit so the CWs don't. Hell, with knights valor you can do this even if you're horribly out of position.
TLDR version: try to top the 'damage taken' chart, while also not topping the 'times fallen' chart.
That's why you block more and watch your shield meter. And not trying to be #1 in that damage dealt chart.
It all depends on the boss and your party tactics. You can tank boss, you can tank adds, depending on the case.
Well, isn't that normal?
THIS!
And if that's not enough just add in a dash of Villain's Menace to get the attention of any stragglers out there. And for ultimate GF mob vacuum toss out Knight's Valor with an extra helping of Supremacy of Steel. That combo will pretty much gather everything in the whole room, even those pesky ranged attackers plinking away at the Cleric all the way in the back. Sure, it could also get you killed, right quick. But that's the life of a tank
I constantly rotate my viewpoint to take in the fight behind me and adjust accordingly. I reserve Frontline Surge for the adds behind me and use it to knock down anything that might be giving my DC or CW's trouble. It buys them some breathing room and allows them to continue casting spells rather than dancing out of the way. You have to anticipate that even though the boss has mechanics that are easily read as has been pointed out, your TR or party members will sometimes find themselves the victim of a smackdown. When this happens I quickly move the boss or adds away from that person to allow them to get up or rez if needed.
I like to play my tank as a general on the battlefield. Aware at all times of any changes or needs that my group has. We don't have the luxury of being focused on a single target like a TR can be.
It's a fun role to play as long as you remember that each group is going to bring it's own challenges that you'll need to adapt to and help them succeed.
...I've also read that Bronzewood enchants really HAMSTER off mobs.
I do A LOT of PvP and I find that helps a lot with tanking. It sharpens awareness and has increased my DPS tremendously.
Dunno if this helps at all, but it's what I do, and it works well. I have had probably 6-8 tanks come to me for assistance with their spec, rotation and advice. I usually take them to the training dummies and have them practice target charging, and getting their DPS to it's maximum potential. Sometimes simple timing changes can make a world of difference.
If anyone is on Beholder and would like me to show them my gear/spec/rotation etc. I'd be more than happy to assist. My name is Adamar
1.CC resist not working .
2.GF is too slow.
3.Yes y can pull all mob's on y (to keep agro i use this skill build Willians Menance/Threathening Rush/Knigth's Valor/Into the Fray/Enforced Threat) i mostly do this but'''' if somone use aoe near add agro lost.
AS GWF thing's are harder .
Try this get some distant from add's not too much & this skill rotation 1 swing Weapon Master Strike -Daring Shout(+Intimidiation+100%on agro Deep Gash more dmg on D.S more agro)after ds Come and Get It (+Intimidiation+100%on agro Deep Gash more dmg on CAGT more agro)*Flat buff on dmg is bugged but add are close enught to Strike with Indomitable Battle Strike (try to focus on Lowest hp add to gain agan Mark)+few swing with WMS.
This says it all right here. There is very little in the way of motivation for team playing for anyone except the DC and the only reason he qualifies as a team player is because of his AoE heal.
I think the ultimate problem is somewhat similar to Guild Wars 2. DPS is king. Nobody cares about anything else other than the DPS you can output, regardless of class. The more DPS, the faster the boss dies, the faster the boss dies, the less damage you take. Tanks are largely not needed. No, I take that back, tanks are not needed at all. Take an extra CW with you and the GF becomes irrelevant. Not only do the CW's CC skills take the place of holding aggro, they can drop a nuke on everything and kill them right quick.
It used to be that the role of the tank was to hold the aggro and keep mobs off the DPS/Healer while the DPS/Healer had to deal with something called "threat management", balancing their DPS or healing to maximise it while not pulling aggro from the tank. That's what this game needs.
As things stand, the best tank is the one who rolls a Cleric.
Yeah, i do all of the above. I guess when i think about it, i used to hold aggro much better, when i was using a very tanky build (cannot find it anymore, but the person posted the build was no longer viable in t2 content so i switched to Rokuthy's Hybrid Tanking Build)
Like some others have said, i do not have issue getting the aggro, it just seems like the tr or cw will peal it off in a few seconds.
Don't listen to people saying that tanks are useless, they are very useful during legit runs. It's not mandatory to have one but it makes the run smoother.
Lolwut? For starters, you can pull things with your tab mark. Then there is enforced threat which taunts mobs. And finally knight's valor builds threat as well.
And Threatening rush...
And aggravating strike (which is basically an at-will as well)
When I saw Control Wizard I imagined more of a Mesmer/Enchanter class, but maybe that will be down the road. It would be good to see a damage dealing spell class and and actual class that controlled the fights without having to resort to pulling them all together and then dropping them down again. I know if I was a mob I'd target the CW because it'd get annoying to get picked up and dropped repeatedly.
Same thing with the healers. You can't keep everybody's hit points at full and you don't just sit there monitoring and clicking on portraits. Everyone has to take some responsibility for keeping themselves in the fight with tactics, mobility, and potions.
Neverwinter tries to keep the player involved in the combat and I think they do a pretty good job.
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Mob's have no AI the only one exist (zombie grunt)inteligent zombi wooow mybe it come from Warm Bodies.
So yeah. I really like playing with him.
Haha yeah, sweet revenge. I suppose bashing squishies over their heads must be quite satisfying, something similar to how satisfying it is for me to kill one of those "immortal" tanky chars that wants to eat my CW alive. Squishies make for excellent throwing around objects in NWO, have your fun
Typically, the meter I consider most important is the Damage Taken meter - I feel I've failed if I don't have at least as much damage taken as the rest of the party combined. In good runs I've had as much damage as the rest of the party combined then doubled.
Keeping aggro as a GF should be easy. In an actual tank spec I can pull aggro from nearly anyone just by marking them, but I carry Enforced Threat nonetheless. I have only ever lost aggro to 1 friend of mine, a GWF specced for DPS tanking.
My tank is specced as a buff bot and carries Enforced Threat, Knight's Valor and Into the Fray, with the feat buffs for all three from Protector and Tactician trees, respectively. His recovery is about 3300, which means Into the Fray has only a 2 second downtime.
His damage resistance is 50%, 25% deflect chance, 10% regen, strength based. His guard meter feels pretty much infinite.
The thing that bugs me about him is that Aggravating Strike and Shield Bash both are bugged and have been since launch, and don't proc any weapon enchantment affects or damage. He uses Threatening Rush and Tide of Iron, which means I'm using Agg Strike quite a bit for AoE dmg and taunt. In turn this means that the for the majority of attacks, my weapon enchantment is effectively useless.
Tanking in this game is AWESOME, so active, so intense, so demanding, you can take all the agro in all situations... but holding it and MANAGING it without dying requires movement, anticipation, more movement and even more movement, some timely blocking to the big attacks, replacing some mobs or the boss to prevent the cone AoEs to hit dummies, being aware of the entire battlefield to grab agro from new spawns during boss battle... is just really really fun.
But is not for everybody, i said this a few times, the first class casual players and kids choose... is a fighter class, that's not bad, casual players are the target for any successful game, but its hard to ask all the above for someone who is not used to it, so you find squishy conquerors who die too much, turtle tanks who think blocking everything is tanking, people who is not aware of the battlefield overall so they not see if CWs or DCs are having unwanted agro, Tanks KITING BOSS <-- WTF, seriously, i saw one yesterday on my GWF alt, WTF WTF WTF dont do that! never ever, period!
OP was right, your job in this game is gather, hold and manage agro, protecting your party off damage allowing them to do their magic thingies and overall, make everything easier for everyone, also, you can do that doing a nice chunk of DPS which is satisfying.
Good tanks have place in any run, CN, MC 3/3, anywere, bad tanks... should be shot in the knee.
Even that, Yes , the tank concept in Neverwinter is way to far than , lets say the tiger/panda tanks from PWI game.There you can hold aggro with just a simple Roar .In PWI there are just a few skills ( no trees to chose from and no one can mess their builds , you just buy level skills
Not to mention the dungeons in PWI does not DIMINISH the players stats/gear score (when you are in Neverwinter/Star Trek Online dungeon look at your GEAR SCORE to see how much is diminished..a lot) , the bosses have just very high hp/attack thats why Cryptic dungeons are a pain to do, in mostly cases you'll find people with low gear which leads to a fail and screw your Dungeon Dwelves Event. I think the gear score requirements for Newerwinter should be raised ,not to see ppl with green gear on them anymore on a 5700 GS dungeon.
- PWI - November, 2008 (2 months after North-America-West Coast open beta)
- Forsaken World - open beta
- BOI - open beta
- Star Trek Online - ftp January, 2012 and rank 14 STO Wiki contributor
- Neverwinter open beta June, 2013
Daily Foundry "Canyon of the Dead" ( NW-DBPJYKMRE ) - dungeon