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PvP 101: A guide to help you enjoy it more
jeepin
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Disclaimer: I do not claim to be an expert and there may be some information that is slightly inaccurate. Please add constructive advice.
1st, PvP (Player vs Player) can be extremely frustrating, intimidating, and painful. It tends to be one of those things that if you like it you love it and if you hate it.. Yeah well...
My goal here is to help everyone get a new appreciation of the different PvP Battles and help with class and spec.
Each class has it's benefits and weakness'. The biggest issue people have with their class is they are either not spec'd properly for PvP, they are using the wrong abilities for PvP, or their gear is substantially lower than people they are up against. Each is a pretty easy fix.
I don't know what every ability for every class is, so I will give the generic explanation and you can probably figure out what I am talking about.
Guardian Fighters - You can absolutely DOMINATE PvP battles. My set up is Knights Challenge, Bull Charge, and Lunging Strike // Cleave, Threatening Rush // Villians Menace, Indominable Strength. Strategy: Target who can potentially do the most damage. Usually CW's and TR's. If I know I am going against a CW and they are true PVP CW's, I throw up Villians Menace. It makes me immune to CC and gives me a little buff, then I target them with Knights Challenge and feint them by using Threatening Rush. Usually when a CW sees you charging, they dash. As Threatening Rush is unlimited, I make them burn their 3 dashes. Now I charge in with Lunging strike and bull charge. Thats all it takes, and its game over. Works on TR's and CW's well. Other GF's and GWF's are a little different. I will usually try to frustrate them and make them want to kill me so bad that they focus on me specifically. I focus on survivability and let the CW or TR burn them down. Then as soon as their invulnerability and all of their cool downs are blown, I hit them with my combo's. If I crit, I have 2 shotted GWFs and GF's. It's all about timing and patience.
CW's - Their are many different ideas on how to play a CW. I focus on ranged cc. Its a lot of timing attacks to dash, and survivability. I will usually use Entangling Force to start, then I hit them with Ray of Enfeeblement and frost pillar to slow them down. If the get close, I use Icy Terrain. I'll burn them down with Magic Missle or chilling cloud. And if there is a group, I use Arcane Singularity and an aoe. Or I use shield and blast them when they all group up then dash out of the way. If I am single target, I will rapid fire: Force choke, ray of enfeeblement then ICe Knife. Admittedly, I hold my own with my CW, but their are people out their who are just insane and I would reccomend looking up a good PvP spec/rotation. The key to CW is being out of the fray, keeping people at a distance, and burning them down as quickly as possible.
TR's - I do not play a TR, but I know a few. What I have found with speaking with them is: A PvP TR is spec'd completely different. With points in abilities not normally used for PvE. A well spec'd TR is nasty. With vanish, smoke cloud, backstab, lash, and all of their survivability they can be the toughest to beat. If played properly. Time your smoke bomb when a GF or GWF begins their assault. If you see a GF at a distance assume he is going to charge and if timed well, we charge into the cloud and are insta stunned. We cant block, we cant use abilities.. We are walking sacks of potatoes waiting to be mashed. Same with a GWFs invulnerability. The key to a CW is to sneak up behind them, pop off cloud and then commence to tearing them up. If your daily is up and you have a mage dazed, its a 1 or 2 shot. GF's Daze, dash, knives, vanish, pop up behind them, backstab, dash, throw knives.... Same with GWF's. Other TR's.... You're on your own. Get em to your group and let him get perma stunned.
GWF's - I know least about GWF's other than I hate you all..... You are my biggest nemesis in PvP. I have you down to no life, then you go invulnerable, heal yourself up and start a barrage of attacks. Then I take you down, and you do it again. Nasty nasty...
Clerics - There is a specific build for Clerics for PvP.. And used properly, they are impossible to kill. they put their healing circles up, they have an ability to go invulnerable, they debuff the hell out of you and they have a nasty nuke. I have had some serious difficulty killing a cleric. They dodge, debuff, stay healed, stun, nuke, dodge, stun, debuff, nuke, heal, nuke... When played according to the spec or abilities, you can solo/multi kill any class out there.
PvP Areas:
1st I'll start with Gauntlgrym. It can be very fun and a great way to practice your abilities. I reccomend it as a training area since you can stay with a group and odds are better in your favor for surviving.
1st key/secret to Gauntlgrym. Cap cap cap... Avoid PvP unless you absolutely have to. And if you don't have to, don't. The ONLY time you should engage in PvP is at a control point when you are trying to take it. If someone attacks you in between control points. Run away. It's a waste of your time and does nothing. Heres how scoring breaks down for all PvP.
Assist: 25 Points
Kill: 50 points (getting the killing blow. Doing the most damage will get you assist, getting the last shot in gets you the kill)
Defending a control Point: 50 points
Kill at a Control Point: 100 Points
Take a control point: 300 points
So it would take you 6 kills to get the points equal to taking a control point, then if you get the kill at the control point you can walk out with 400-450 points. So... CAP CAP CAP. I start off by going to the right with the majority of the group in Gaunt. I run from control point to control point and grab the 300 points. If I come across an enemy at the next point, I kill them, take the point and leave as quickly as possible. Keep moving. If you see a group of enemies approaching, run away. Move to the next enemy controlled point. Don't stop moving. I have scored over 10k points and 1st place with 1 or 2 deaths and only 5 or 6 kills. Just by continuing to move and avoiding combat
Regular PvP
Chances are you are going to be with a PUG and your success often times is reliant upon your group composition and the people you are going against. Its random. But I will try to give you the best stratagies.
1) Go as a group. If the group all goes to the middle, then it is ok to be the only 1 to cap your point. However, DO NOT go to the center alone. Its a guaranteed death and a waste of time. If the entire team goes to your control point, then go with them. I will watch to see where the majority goes before I commit. Strength in numbers is not just a saying.
2) Check the team board (hit X) to see who is what class on the opposing team. It will give you a better idea of who you need to locate, close with, and destroy by fire or close combat. Knowing your opposition is important. Once you know who is there. You can set your targets on the class that you know you do well against. Which brings me to:
3) Play to your strengths. If you are a CW, find another CW or Cleric. Or GWF you can burn down. Play to your strengths against classes you know you can dominate. I will learn who the CW's are and make them my targets first. They have the potential to do the most damage from the distance.
4) Cap! If you see that you have 3 or 4 people fighting at a control point, and your team is pretty tough. Take their control point. Many times they will be preoccupied trying to take your point or the middle that you can slip past and grab theirs. It's 300 points and if someone comes that you can kill, there is another 50 points.
5) Play the map to your favor. Find hiding areas or vantage points above that play to your strength. Utilize strategic areas. As a GF, I will hide out of sight near a control point until an unsuspecting victim comes into my cross hairs, then I hit them with Knights Challenge, Lunging Strike and Bull Rush, before they even realize there was someone there. As a CW, I will charge up my shield and go take a top point. You can CC and burn someone down while they are engaged with someone else, and dead before they realize it. If they send someone up to you. Discharge your shield and launch them off.
6) Be aware of your surroundings. Watch where people are headed and keep a mental note of how many opponents are in a specific area. If you see 4 people coming for your point and you are there.. Get out, get away, find somewhere else or join up with your group. You may be good, but you aint takin 3-5 people on. Watch the map and see what areas are being taken. If you see that there is 1 person randomly running, 3 at the middle fighting and a control point is being taken, you know that it is only 1 person. I'll take 1 on 1 odds all day long. I'll move toward that spot and wait out of site till they take it or if I know I can take them out, Ill charge in and kill them and take the spot. Then... Get out of there. The longer you stay at an area, the more chance of engaging multiple enemies.
7) Use common sense. Probably the most simple in concept and the most difficult to achieve. Avoid fighting off of the control point. You are doing the team no good if you are not taking the point you are fighting outside of. Don't go into large groups alone, no matter how bad-*** you are, you can't solo them all. Don't make it personal. If someone kills you over and over. Don't lose your cool and take it to heart and get all nerd raged. They are just following #3. If you start to lose your cool and start getting frustrated, you are going to lose focus and make vital mistakes. Dodge, blink, or avoid as much as you can. People get tunnel vision and focused on 1 shotting. Play your game not theirs. Counter their attack or parry and riposte. If you find that your team has lost so bad that people have left. Don't jump into the fray. If it ends up 5v3 you are only going to build their stats up. Let it play out and hopefully get a better game next time. Hang by the safe zone until its over. It is Ok to surrender when the stats are against you.
8) Play with respect and you will earn respect. I absolutely refuse to spawn camp. By that I mean, I will not stand at the base of the enemies spawn point and grief kill them over and over. I will give them a fair shot and let them come down and fight faily away from the spawn point. I have gotten a lot of respect from that and have had friend requests from people that respected my game play. Don't be an a-hole. Avoid chat. People will bait you and try to take you off of your game by calling you out or insulting you. Even if they hit a sore spot. Ignore it. It only makes them look foolish and you look like the hero when you destroy them.
1st, PvP (Player vs Player) can be extremely frustrating, intimidating, and painful. It tends to be one of those things that if you like it you love it and if you hate it.. Yeah well...
My goal here is to help everyone get a new appreciation of the different PvP Battles and help with class and spec.
Each class has it's benefits and weakness'. The biggest issue people have with their class is they are either not spec'd properly for PvP, they are using the wrong abilities for PvP, or their gear is substantially lower than people they are up against. Each is a pretty easy fix.
I don't know what every ability for every class is, so I will give the generic explanation and you can probably figure out what I am talking about.
Guardian Fighters - You can absolutely DOMINATE PvP battles. My set up is Knights Challenge, Bull Charge, and Lunging Strike // Cleave, Threatening Rush // Villians Menace, Indominable Strength. Strategy: Target who can potentially do the most damage. Usually CW's and TR's. If I know I am going against a CW and they are true PVP CW's, I throw up Villians Menace. It makes me immune to CC and gives me a little buff, then I target them with Knights Challenge and feint them by using Threatening Rush. Usually when a CW sees you charging, they dash. As Threatening Rush is unlimited, I make them burn their 3 dashes. Now I charge in with Lunging strike and bull charge. Thats all it takes, and its game over. Works on TR's and CW's well. Other GF's and GWF's are a little different. I will usually try to frustrate them and make them want to kill me so bad that they focus on me specifically. I focus on survivability and let the CW or TR burn them down. Then as soon as their invulnerability and all of their cool downs are blown, I hit them with my combo's. If I crit, I have 2 shotted GWFs and GF's. It's all about timing and patience.
CW's - Their are many different ideas on how to play a CW. I focus on ranged cc. Its a lot of timing attacks to dash, and survivability. I will usually use Entangling Force to start, then I hit them with Ray of Enfeeblement and frost pillar to slow them down. If the get close, I use Icy Terrain. I'll burn them down with Magic Missle or chilling cloud. And if there is a group, I use Arcane Singularity and an aoe. Or I use shield and blast them when they all group up then dash out of the way. If I am single target, I will rapid fire: Force choke, ray of enfeeblement then ICe Knife. Admittedly, I hold my own with my CW, but their are people out their who are just insane and I would reccomend looking up a good PvP spec/rotation. The key to CW is being out of the fray, keeping people at a distance, and burning them down as quickly as possible.
TR's - I do not play a TR, but I know a few. What I have found with speaking with them is: A PvP TR is spec'd completely different. With points in abilities not normally used for PvE. A well spec'd TR is nasty. With vanish, smoke cloud, backstab, lash, and all of their survivability they can be the toughest to beat. If played properly. Time your smoke bomb when a GF or GWF begins their assault. If you see a GF at a distance assume he is going to charge and if timed well, we charge into the cloud and are insta stunned. We cant block, we cant use abilities.. We are walking sacks of potatoes waiting to be mashed. Same with a GWFs invulnerability. The key to a CW is to sneak up behind them, pop off cloud and then commence to tearing them up. If your daily is up and you have a mage dazed, its a 1 or 2 shot. GF's Daze, dash, knives, vanish, pop up behind them, backstab, dash, throw knives.... Same with GWF's. Other TR's.... You're on your own. Get em to your group and let him get perma stunned.
GWF's - I know least about GWF's other than I hate you all..... You are my biggest nemesis in PvP. I have you down to no life, then you go invulnerable, heal yourself up and start a barrage of attacks. Then I take you down, and you do it again. Nasty nasty...
Clerics - There is a specific build for Clerics for PvP.. And used properly, they are impossible to kill. they put their healing circles up, they have an ability to go invulnerable, they debuff the hell out of you and they have a nasty nuke. I have had some serious difficulty killing a cleric. They dodge, debuff, stay healed, stun, nuke, dodge, stun, debuff, nuke, heal, nuke... When played according to the spec or abilities, you can solo/multi kill any class out there.
PvP Areas:
1st I'll start with Gauntlgrym. It can be very fun and a great way to practice your abilities. I reccomend it as a training area since you can stay with a group and odds are better in your favor for surviving.
1st key/secret to Gauntlgrym. Cap cap cap... Avoid PvP unless you absolutely have to. And if you don't have to, don't. The ONLY time you should engage in PvP is at a control point when you are trying to take it. If someone attacks you in between control points. Run away. It's a waste of your time and does nothing. Heres how scoring breaks down for all PvP.
Assist: 25 Points
Kill: 50 points (getting the killing blow. Doing the most damage will get you assist, getting the last shot in gets you the kill)
Defending a control Point: 50 points
Kill at a Control Point: 100 Points
Take a control point: 300 points
So it would take you 6 kills to get the points equal to taking a control point, then if you get the kill at the control point you can walk out with 400-450 points. So... CAP CAP CAP. I start off by going to the right with the majority of the group in Gaunt. I run from control point to control point and grab the 300 points. If I come across an enemy at the next point, I kill them, take the point and leave as quickly as possible. Keep moving. If you see a group of enemies approaching, run away. Move to the next enemy controlled point. Don't stop moving. I have scored over 10k points and 1st place with 1 or 2 deaths and only 5 or 6 kills. Just by continuing to move and avoiding combat
Regular PvP
Chances are you are going to be with a PUG and your success often times is reliant upon your group composition and the people you are going against. Its random. But I will try to give you the best stratagies.
1) Go as a group. If the group all goes to the middle, then it is ok to be the only 1 to cap your point. However, DO NOT go to the center alone. Its a guaranteed death and a waste of time. If the entire team goes to your control point, then go with them. I will watch to see where the majority goes before I commit. Strength in numbers is not just a saying.
2) Check the team board (hit X) to see who is what class on the opposing team. It will give you a better idea of who you need to locate, close with, and destroy by fire or close combat. Knowing your opposition is important. Once you know who is there. You can set your targets on the class that you know you do well against. Which brings me to:
3) Play to your strengths. If you are a CW, find another CW or Cleric. Or GWF you can burn down. Play to your strengths against classes you know you can dominate. I will learn who the CW's are and make them my targets first. They have the potential to do the most damage from the distance.
4) Cap! If you see that you have 3 or 4 people fighting at a control point, and your team is pretty tough. Take their control point. Many times they will be preoccupied trying to take your point or the middle that you can slip past and grab theirs. It's 300 points and if someone comes that you can kill, there is another 50 points.
5) Play the map to your favor. Find hiding areas or vantage points above that play to your strength. Utilize strategic areas. As a GF, I will hide out of sight near a control point until an unsuspecting victim comes into my cross hairs, then I hit them with Knights Challenge, Lunging Strike and Bull Rush, before they even realize there was someone there. As a CW, I will charge up my shield and go take a top point. You can CC and burn someone down while they are engaged with someone else, and dead before they realize it. If they send someone up to you. Discharge your shield and launch them off.
6) Be aware of your surroundings. Watch where people are headed and keep a mental note of how many opponents are in a specific area. If you see 4 people coming for your point and you are there.. Get out, get away, find somewhere else or join up with your group. You may be good, but you aint takin 3-5 people on. Watch the map and see what areas are being taken. If you see that there is 1 person randomly running, 3 at the middle fighting and a control point is being taken, you know that it is only 1 person. I'll take 1 on 1 odds all day long. I'll move toward that spot and wait out of site till they take it or if I know I can take them out, Ill charge in and kill them and take the spot. Then... Get out of there. The longer you stay at an area, the more chance of engaging multiple enemies.
7) Use common sense. Probably the most simple in concept and the most difficult to achieve. Avoid fighting off of the control point. You are doing the team no good if you are not taking the point you are fighting outside of. Don't go into large groups alone, no matter how bad-*** you are, you can't solo them all. Don't make it personal. If someone kills you over and over. Don't lose your cool and take it to heart and get all nerd raged. They are just following #3. If you start to lose your cool and start getting frustrated, you are going to lose focus and make vital mistakes. Dodge, blink, or avoid as much as you can. People get tunnel vision and focused on 1 shotting. Play your game not theirs. Counter their attack or parry and riposte. If you find that your team has lost so bad that people have left. Don't jump into the fray. If it ends up 5v3 you are only going to build their stats up. Let it play out and hopefully get a better game next time. Hang by the safe zone until its over. It is Ok to surrender when the stats are against you.
8) Play with respect and you will earn respect. I absolutely refuse to spawn camp. By that I mean, I will not stand at the base of the enemies spawn point and grief kill them over and over. I will give them a fair shot and let them come down and fight faily away from the spawn point. I have gotten a lot of respect from that and have had friend requests from people that respected my game play. Don't be an a-hole. Avoid chat. People will bait you and try to take you off of your game by calling you out or insulting you. Even if they hit a sore spot. Ignore it. It only makes them look foolish and you look like the hero when you destroy them.
Post edited by jeepin on
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Comments
That aside its a good breakdown of the PVP instances and how they work
The only other thing I'd say is that you should always be active. If you've capped a point, don't just sit on it. In normal 5v5 PvP and you've taken mid, push out towards their point. Take the fight away from the point.
I usually get about 10 kills a match, and less than 5 deaths, but anywhere between 20-100 assists.
I attack rogues and CW's on sight, skip DC's, avoid GF's like the plague, and screw up any GWF that makes the mistake of trying to fight me. With rogues and CW's, wait until they teleport or roll and knockdown, and from there use your combat advantage to wipe them off your sword (or axe and clubs, in my case). When fighting GF's, let your CW friend choke him, and rip him apart with Indomitable Battle strike and at-wills, following with a knockdown when he's getting up to prevent his block. With DC's, it's a waiting game as they either die like flies or have too much buffer, and usually takes multiple runs through my encounters to kill them. And with the GWF, let him lead with the knockdown and wear him out with dailies, wait until his unstoppable blows over, knockdown and wipe him out with IBS.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I would not suggest this against a good TR, you will find if you Knights Challenge a good TR 9 times out of 10, your going back to roast marshmallows at a campfire.
Unless the TR doesn't see you coming or is busy nuking other targets. Then not only you are able to one shot him but you also get to cut his damage to 50% on his original target.
@OP: Good guide, common sense and nice tips. PVP should be looked into come the next patches. More maps, more scenarios and probably a ladder. It's one of the most fun combat systems I've seen in MMOs and it's a shame that it's wasted in two identical 'captrure the point' maps. Thanks for the insight.
Once the TR see's the laser beam on him --- if he is a good TR, will know what just happened and peel off and go right for the GF..
Double damage FTW
Anyway, I guess it's common sense to use it at its greater potential. It's a great ability, especially in the chaos of PvP. The disadvantage is that it eats up a slot of a much needed encounter (usually Frontline Surge).
You surely must be talking about clerics in another game. Ability to go invulnerable??? Debuffing the hell out of you??? Nasty Nuke??? Stay healed??? Heal???
Fact is: The cleric by far is the only class that only becomes really hard to kill in PVP once you gear it really up to the max. While a GWF or TR can do quite well even with standard gear a cleric is never really invulnerable (at least not very long), never will heal himself up (40% less heals - ever heard of that?) and never will debuff or stun you until you die. With his HoTs he can't outheal the massive DPS other classes deal. IF you are picked then most likely you will heal, but while doing that you won't build up divine fast enough to heal in divine mode. This little standard HoT heal is basically most of the time nothing.
If you sacrifice the little healing you have for all those debuffing abilities you speak of you will die even faster. Also I have tested several abilities in PVP, I hardly see the high GS players drop significantly once debuffed. When I "weaken" them for example they still deal so much damage to me that I am dying anyways. Also our CC and dodge is limited. When a GF or GWF picks on me I am dead. It is just a matter of some seconds more or less. They will knock me down or kick me away constantly while they laugh at my CCs I throw at them (most likely they are immune anyway to it). I will be desperately healing myself while I even throw less damage at them than I do normally(trying to take down a GWF or GF with a cleric is like throwing cotton balls at them). The only "nuke" we had was nerfed to oblivion and even before the nerf the ability was a joke compared to the damage other classes can dish out.
I would even say that the cleric is the only class (when it comes to PVP) that is gimped the most and it is the most frustrating class to play in PVP unless (as I said) you have maxed your char. The clerics you talk about are heavily geared. I checked some of the uber clerics' gear. Enchants 8-10, perfect weapon and armor enchantments, best T2+ gear... yeah such a cleric is hard to beat. But on the way to become such a cleric every other class that is not maxed will smash you like a bug while on the other hand you most often won't bring a lot of benefit to your team. When a TR beats your CW heavily you won't keep him alive anyway. On the contrary: Every DC drops your team's DPS a lot. I have seen PVP parties with 2 clerics just lose against a full DPS team. DPS outnumbers heals by far in PVP.
And believe me: Being the class that is permanently critted in stealth mode by TRs won't give you any motivation to PVP more. The contrary is the case. I PVP 4 times to finish my daily and then I am happy that it is over.
Could you elaborate a bit on this one? All I found in the gwf wiki for invulnerability was Steel defense, but the gwf needs to use a Daily beforehand, and Dailies, nown for the gwfs, well it's actually once a day. For healing all I saw was Restoring strike, and I know it has a very low, almost nil heal.
Are you sure you're talking about gwfs? Or maybe it is from another game?
GWF Sentinel Build - Amazing longevity if spec'd with HPs/Con/Regen/Lifesteal/Defense/Deflection. Gap closers w/Sprint and Mighty Leap, immune to most CC because of Unstoppable.
Steel Defense
Level 42
After activating a Daily power, become immune to damage for 3 seconds.
Restoring Strike
Level 7, 19, 31
15′ Range
3′ Cylinder
You slice through a single target in front of you with merciless satisfaction, Healing yourself based on the damage dealt and restoring Stamina.
GWFs can hit like a Mac Truck. So I assume that could be a significant heal when they are immune to damage, pop a heal potion and Restoring Strike.... I can tell you I have seen a GWF at deaths door go invulnerable and gain a quarter of their life back.
Dont play a GWF, I just know what I see when Im fighting them... Maybe a GWF can shed some light on the abilities they use.
I agree with most of what you said, that Laser Beam sticks out like a sore thumb and easily points me back to it's source as soon as it lands on me.
We see it too
1) GWFs don't go "invulnerable". They have unstoppable which reduces damage taken by 50% and can be activated only after taking lots of damage.
2) Yes, Sentinels are hard to take down, but unless they slot tenebrous, their damage sucks.
3) Steely defense gives you, when maxed, 5 seconds invulnerability (3 sec base, +1 each point you put in it) when using a daily. If you know how much AP generation sucks on GWFs, then you also know that this power now can be used very rarely.
I've come through lots of guides. In the end, they all end up saying the same things. Which i already do in PvP since the start, it's easy to figure out how to play a domination match. But i would say that 90% of PvP is gear. 10% left is strategy/ team play and fast mounts to reach the points faster through alternative routes.
Also: TRs can't be handled just with most strategy i've read. A guys said "drag them in with come and get it". Wrong. They go ITC as soon as you suck them in, making your buff damage go to waste. If you reach them, if they're good, they can dodge your takedown 3 times with roll dodge. Or use smoke screen. Then slip away, go invisible and attack from range softening you up for their DPS encounters.
In Gauntlgyrm one or two CWs can hold the points with the hurlers or golems on it against a much larger force.
1 on 1s come down to how much better you are at circumventing an opponent's strengths than he is. Timing, luck and skill. Enjoy the fact that all 5 classes are different, otherwise it'd just be a button mashing and gear score competition.
It's quite difficult to write down something concerning random encounters. Everyone has been in the place of facing an angry mob of 3 people along with 2 stealthed rogues, but since there is nothing more you can do there, nobody will take the time and write about it. 1v1 has a reference point and can point some tips that you need to follow in order to battle certain classes.
Than been said, I am 100% in agreement that PvP is not about 1v1. It's about team vs team and when two teams face each other the name of the game changes a lot. CWs can choke someone to make him vanurable to the incoming GWF as you said, or Repel someone away from your healer. Even people can stack on their healers in order to screw the targeting of other players.
I will underline your statement about the difference of all the 5 classes, and I will also repeat that the games becomes much more enjoyable if you see it as a team effort rather than a 1vEveryone (but please come one at a time).
Sentinel GWF works too