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DC sucks (only PVP?)
grovelk
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
The #1 thing I hate about DC is it is impossible to revive allies. I have a post about this here:
>> http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?455961-Why-can-t-DC-be-a-field-medic
#2: Other than [Astral Shield] and either [Hallowed Ground] or [Divine Armor], DC doesnt really do much.
I find it completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that 1 encounter and 1 daily are the only things that are useful for an entire player.
#3 Relatavely speaking, DC is BY FAR the weakest and least helpful role.
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Take a look at the PVP Mindflayer tournament:
>> http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?410941-Register-Now-MindFlayer-s-first-5-V-5-Premade-Tournament
Here are the results for it (posted later in the above post by the OP):
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvWqEp0Qy9gwdEhUM1Zyc1ZLdmRydTVTNW9zY09OeGc&usp=sharing
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(see the bottom of this section for TL;DR)
I am going to walk through how to calculate effectiveness based on K/D/A:
K= Kills, D = Deaths, A = Assists, E = Effectiveness
E = {(K/D) * [(A/D) / 2]} / total average effectiveness
Here is the effectiveness of each class, using this formula and the data provided from the tournament:
(TL;DR)
TR: 1.64
GF: 1.09
GWF: 0.75
CW: 0.52
DC: 0.16
CW and GWF are lower due to their 'hybrid' role, while DC, GF and TR have a more solid role and should have a much higher effectiveness.
However, the DC has an effectiveness of 0.16, way below any other role - this is pathetic.
Also note that CW's were killed more than any class (double of GWF), this might be why their effectiveness is remarkably lower than GWF.
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I am just using my below average brain to write this, if any of you geniuses can clarify and correct any of my mistakes thanks
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TL;DR:
- DC needs way to revive allies
- DC doesn't have many things to bring to the fight
- DC role is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too weak
DEVS PLEASE BRING THE DC UP TO PARR
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Post your "DC Buff" ideas, and I will add them here.
Thanks for great ideas from:
- lobo0084
- macjae
- xiphenon
- grovelk
DC Buff Ideas:
- Astral Revive [class feature] - increases revive range by 40' (also add/modify a feat which adds a AOE buff, which when dying near the DC [with this power slotted] will increase the revive timer by 25%/30%/40%/50%/60%)
-Soothing Light Buff - while activated covers target with Astral Armor which after 3 procs, grants immunity to melee attacks and powers, while healing them at a rate of {50% of targets max HP}/{Pip}. While active, disables target from dealing melee attacks/powers
-Decrease heal aggro - decrease by 15% for each nearby ally, this increases the role of healer
- [new feat/daily] - Allow a DC to act as a spawn point for a fight. When an ally spawns, 75% of the threat from the DC is transferred to the spawned player.
>> http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?455961-Why-can-t-DC-be-a-field-medic
#2: Other than [Astral Shield] and either [Hallowed Ground] or [Divine Armor], DC doesnt really do much.
I find it completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that 1 encounter and 1 daily are the only things that are useful for an entire player.
#3 Relatavely speaking, DC is BY FAR the weakest and least helpful role.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Take a look at the PVP Mindflayer tournament:
>> http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?410941-Register-Now-MindFlayer-s-first-5-V-5-Premade-Tournament
Here are the results for it (posted later in the above post by the OP):
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvWqEp0Qy9gwdEhUM1Zyc1ZLdmRydTVTNW9zY09OeGc&usp=sharing
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(see the bottom of this section for TL;DR)
I am going to walk through how to calculate effectiveness based on K/D/A:
K= Kills, D = Deaths, A = Assists, E = Effectiveness
E = {(K/D) * [(A/D) / 2]} / total average effectiveness
1. For obvious reasons take:
K/D
2. For obvious reasons take:
A/D
3. Assuming there should be a minumum of 1 assist per kill, there is a 1/2 chance to get an assist (compared to kills). Thus we divide that by 2:
[(A/D) / 2]
FYI: This is being generous, it should be closer to 3 or 4.
4. Since Kills and Assists cannot be added, we have to multiply them by each other:
(K/D) * [(A/D) / 2]
5. To make it fair, we divide the effectiveness by the average of the other classes effectiveness:
E = {(K/D) * [(A/D) / 2]} / total average effectiveness
Here is the effectiveness of each class, using this formula and the data provided from the tournament:
(TL;DR)
TR: 1.64
GF: 1.09
GWF: 0.75
CW: 0.52
DC: 0.16
CW and GWF are lower due to their 'hybrid' role, while DC, GF and TR have a more solid role and should have a much higher effectiveness.
However, the DC has an effectiveness of 0.16, way below any other role - this is pathetic.
Also note that CW's were killed more than any class (double of GWF), this might be why their effectiveness is remarkably lower than GWF.
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I am just using my below average brain to write this, if any of you geniuses can clarify and correct any of my mistakes thanks
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
TL;DR:
- DC needs way to revive allies
- DC doesn't have many things to bring to the fight
- DC role is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too weak
DEVS PLEASE BRING THE DC UP TO PARR
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Post your "DC Buff" ideas, and I will add them here.
Thanks for great ideas from:
- lobo0084
- macjae
- xiphenon
- grovelk
DC Buff Ideas:
- Astral Revive [class feature] - increases revive range by 40' (also add/modify a feat which adds a AOE buff, which when dying near the DC [with this power slotted] will increase the revive timer by 25%/30%/40%/50%/60%)
-Soothing Light Buff - while activated covers target with Astral Armor which after 3 procs, grants immunity to melee attacks and powers, while healing them at a rate of {50% of targets max HP}/{Pip}. While active, disables target from dealing melee attacks/powers
-Decrease heal aggro - decrease by 15% for each nearby ally, this increases the role of healer
- [new feat/daily] - Allow a DC to act as a spawn point for a fight. When an ally spawns, 75% of the threat from the DC is transferred to the spawned player.
Post edited by grovelk on
0
Comments
Healing SHOULD reduce the deaths of allies, but as u can see in the chart, the deaths were relatively average, especially considering the CW's were killed so much.
A tanky DC should also die WAYY less which is not seen in this chart either.
The chart is facts and facts don't lie, that is why I didn't include them into the effectiveness calculation.
EDIT: It's not like the DC's are failing by 30-50% more like 500%
My opinion about the provided information:
The reason I say it looks fishy is the numbers for the players Click to Clever have different numbers for each match. This is to be expected when fighting in pvp and it is very difficult to duplicate the same scores in two matches. Then you will see the seven players from Serendipity to wtfbige have the same number of deaths/kills/assists in both matches. It is very fishy that thirty-three players have different assists/kills/deaths in the two matches and seven have the same number of assists/deaths/kills in the two matches. Some of the results in the first thirty-three blocks in the columns deaths/kills/assists are close as well. Those seven players calls into question the rest of the results of the tournament. There is no way to know if the information was just created by someone who got lazy near the end and resulted to cut and pasting.
^Granted this is just my opinion on the information provided.
My opinion about DCs:
I have fought some DCs capable of taking on 4 players and surviving easily enough for their team mates to kill the four players off. I have fought DCs capable of killing other players. Do I agree DCs are the most nerfed class in the game and think they should get a buff? Yes, as long as its a reasonable buff. Do I think DCs should recieve less aggro in PVE? Yes, because it makes it very difficult for them to their part and support their team mates.
^Keep in mind I do not play as a DC and this is my opinion based on my experiences with DCs. You are welcome to ignore it.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I originally was going to post the information I have been gathering for a month from my PvP's but about 30% of them are imbalanced (3v5, 5v4, etc.).
The data I have collected is as follows:
I just permadeleted the whole folder on accident -.-
I think that the effectiveness I had was 0.2x, while the CW and gwf both had 0.8x, that's all I remember
I still have the folder of the average dmg of a DC: 87.26% of the rest of the team (captured thru ACT)
Those numbers sound more reasonable and I would expect the GF number to be higher or TR number to be lower because more players are learning how to handle TRs and some GFs are being setup for more damage. The gear being used, the build of the class, and the skill of the player are also factors that should be considered and not just the class. Some DCs are pure tanks and there was even a thread made by a player wanting them nerfed recently which I laughed at because DCs are one of the most heaviest nerfed classes. I think the class itself has been heavily nerfed and should get some love.
I still find it odd that seven players out of 40 involved in the mindflayer tournament have the exact same numbers for both matches. *shrug*
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
- I have met GWF's that do not die and kill everything.
- I have met GF's that do not die and kill everything.
- I have met CW's that do not die and kill everything.
- I have not met a single good DC. The closest thing I have met was a DC in level 49 pvp who was full tank and played very well. I meet full tank DC's in level 60 all the time and they suck bad.
In my opinion DC's need to have a much more hardcore role. maybe I'll add more info on my ideas to the first post...
Those DCs are very very rare and yeah the class as a whole should get some loving from the devs. An idea you could add for PVE is reduce the amount of aggro DCs get. That seems to be one of the main complaints of PVE DCs.
FYI: Good work on the calculations, they do not appear to be done by a below average mind. I just called into question the information they were based on.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I main (and play quite a lot) on my DC (including CN when my GS was 9.3k), I've had little to no problems with add agro, myself...
I'll add it anyway, it helps the role be more bold :P
- Allow a DC to give a downed player a longer revive request time if the DC is nearby.
- Allow a DC to revive players from a distance, instead of having to stand next to the player.
- Allow a DC the option of a group revive.
- Allow a DC to act as a spawn point for a fight.
- Allow a DC to 'finish' a player from a distance.
None of these actually increases the ability of the DC besides the last ability. But all of them increase the value of the DC on a team.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Wow good stuff, thxx
/signed
As far as I know, 2x blue astrasl shields don't stack. I don't know how it is with hallowed ground or divine armor, but I think there same rule apply too. So, the reason why it is so difficult to kill 2 DCs is because the DCs can cross heal each other without 66% reduction if self heal.
You can also score well as damaged focus DC. However, the more you optimize on scoring with DC the less you contribute to your team. When I go full support with my cleric, I sacrify high score for the team win - even worth, I become main target of the enemy group.
So, you can either decide to try to score and controbute little to the team win or to turn the tides of war as a true leader but being primary target while not able to withstand the full wrath of the enemy team's focus.
Now, there will be some voices that will raise and say: there are gear options for the cleric to become tanky. Yes, we can. However, our group support suffers by doing so.
In my opinion there is a major game balance flaw. Not with the cleric, but with the tanks. A cleric class that can heal and is tanky as a fighter would be to strong. But there is no real synergy between fighters and clerics.
GWFs and GWs focus on damage and controlling other rather than on protecting group members. Why? Its more effective then the latter one. All fighter classes should have a native class mechanic allowing to guard one team member. A power that could be called "intercept" and makes a team member immune to melee damage. There is already a power for the GFs, but it merely transfer the damage of the group members to the guardian.
However i don't understand why did you assume that the chance of getting an assist is half of the chance of getting a kill.
For example, if i kill a target while my team mates help me. I would get 1 kill and they would get 4 assists for just 1 target. So you actually have more chance to get an assist than a kill.
Maybe i misunderstood you.
Just placing some well heals, almost no overhealing and having a feeling for it makes it pretty easy and enjoyable.
2 Quick situations of last few Days:
Had a couple FH runs, endboss, random groups, Tanks been worse, CWs just bwaah - all adds wanna dance with me, well a few may not.
Had a couple FH runs, endboss, friends/guild teams, just had few ticks of sharpshooters during whole bossfight, max. two of them at one time.
same at Pirate Kings, Karrundax,... with PUGs its on every run the same, almost - I feel kinda alone and people dont get, a running cleric cant heal and the party needs to wipe atleast one time until they get it, playing with my mates I can simple heal the DMG I get by healing word.
Reflect this to PVP:
If theres one cleric in your team, your team ist just self-focused, cleric will drop like a fly (as long as other team ist just a bit more... skilled and brings the focus).
If theres one cleric and your team, mostly a good CW, got in mind what a cleric can bring and protects him/her a bit it's not even that worse, actually they can be kinda blasting.
I got PvP matches with a 5-2-40 stat, I got PvP matches with a 0-20-10 stat - just based on the team. First was with a kinda skilled team, second with some die-die-die-ragequit-like egomaniacs (also the points were like 1000:50 on these matches).
A cleric will never be a killing machine, also he wont be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> healer, just based on D&D, but he is a very well and usefull hybrid support.
The fact remains that I am taking a VERY small random sample which matched closely with a few weeks of my own data. I am not looking at TR/GF/GWF/CW who are maxed out on GS and then some bad DC's - this is a 'random' sample of players of 'equal' skill, and 'most' gear at level 60 is way less effective than good to very good skill.
I would like to take more data, but the data isn't available.
I have 4 level 60s and a level 54 CW and I play them all very competitively (both PvE and PvP); in my experience this data looks very close to a true random sample of the general level 60 gameplay.
EDIT: updating list for points for healing allies - ty
This ^
This is what I am talking about in this post, you can be dps and score high and sacrifice the team (every class can kind of do similar), or you can try to play the role of healer and have a VERY weak role, but help the team over all.
I like this, I will update the list, thxx.
Getting an assist is easier, so it should increase your effectiveness by LESS - this is why we divide it into SMALLER pieces. The chance to get an assist should be higher, because only 1 kill can happen per kill, while 4 assists can happen.
I was being generous. I said the number should be closer to 3 or 4, but then the DC's effectiveness would fall to 0.13 LOL
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The historian has spoken...