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new dc, what do you guys think of this ability roll idea
kitaitris
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
so i just max leveled my tr and now i'm basically just doing sharandar dailies with her so i want to start a new dc. For the TR i followed Banelorne's Stealth-Based Executioner Build alternate type where he suggested a high int build so this got me thinking about the dc. Now recovery has a soft cap and all but i wonder what if we started with a higher recharge speed from stats?
So i did some calculating and i figure the best way to get a high recharge is to up int as well as cha. With no sun or moon elf i'm stuck with tiefling +2 cha and +2 int.
Starting roll would be 16wis 14cha 14str 11int -> 16wis 16cha 14str 13int with racial bonuses
in the end i aim to get 20wis 20cha 16str 19int without campfire, this grants me a 19% base recharge speed increase
(21 with campfire)
(considered 19wis 21cha but.... feels like 20 20 is better)
Of course str gets hit hard so crit falls but i think its worth it. so this is pure theory based on what i build on my tr so any feedback is welcome, especially if my entire understanding of the recovery mechanic is fail :P
Sidenote: This dc will be for pure pve, i pvped a bit as my tr and....i dont really like it..
edit: found out that "Clerics can not roll the 16/13/15/11/11/9 distribution" from wiki... tweaked to next best roll.....
So i did some calculating and i figure the best way to get a high recharge is to up int as well as cha. With no sun or moon elf i'm stuck with tiefling +2 cha and +2 int.
Starting roll would be 16wis 14cha 14str 11int -> 16wis 16cha 14str 13int with racial bonuses
in the end i aim to get 20wis 20cha 16str 19int without campfire, this grants me a 19% base recharge speed increase
(21 with campfire)(considered 19wis 21cha but.... feels like 20 20 is better)
Of course str gets hit hard so crit falls but i think its worth it. so this is pure theory based on what i build on my tr so any feedback is welcome, especially if my entire understanding of the recovery mechanic is fail :P
Sidenote: This dc will be for pure pve, i pvped a bit as my tr and....i dont really like it..
edit: found out that "Clerics can not roll the 16/13/15/11/11/9 distribution" from wiki... tweaked to next best roll.....
Post edited by kitaitris on
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2.5-3k is still the preferable amount tho.
Second
This is the return from recovery, points in it on x-axis, 100% of original cooldown on y-axis, Recharge speed is being ignored.
This is it with 21% more rechargespeed (yes, I made it just for this).
So, I was tempted to try this myself for a while, but has stayed away from it, after starting to prefer crit myself. Simple since Vorpal increases your damage based on your critchance and that i scales additively, (yes, this is true lategame thinking, but you can't change race and rolls, so..).
Also, I'd recommend you reading this.
as for the thread you refered me to to, 20int and 23 cha means a base 23% recharge speed and i'm not sure what all those recovery numbers mean.... i mean does the 7k something recovery only mean 31% total recharge speed increase? or is it 31% more recharge speed added to the base 23%?
and finally the document in that thread gives yet another info where 3.5 k recovery gives about 24% recharge speed which if i add to my 21% recharge speed would end up with a pretty good 45% recharge speed?
so i guess the issue is how is it calculated.... because from the way i see it in my character now, with 13 int, 16 cha and 48 recovery from items giving 2.6%. My total recharge speed increase is now 11.6% (3+6+2.6) which would mean in the end would mean i can get 41%(43% with campfire) with 3k recovery....
Here is a graph over pure % recharge speed gain on y-axis, and recovery stat on the x-axis. (As you can see, there are diminishing returns here.)
The cooldowns are the calculated like this: BaseCooldown/(1-(%-from Ability points)-(%from recovery)-(%from feats))
This mean recovery => cooldown reduction actually has diminishing returns twice. (This is why I prefer crit.)
7000 Recovery would be 30.65% increased recharge speed. This would be added to the 23% from Int and Cha, for a total of 53.65%. Meaning your cooldowns are 1-1/(1+0.5365) => about 35% faster. (This would be AS having a cooldown of 13 seconds. Using AS as example since it's the main reason a DC is needed, ever.)
That is correct, which would mean about 32% faster cooldowns. (AS is at about 13.6s here.)
Thank you for all the info misssmoozie
All Combat Ratings except Power has a diminishing return. (Critical Strike, Armor Penetration, Recovery, Defense, Deflect, Regeneration, Life Steal, and Movement.)
The only O/D Rating with a diminishing return is Recharge Speed! All the others provide a 1:1 value at any rating. (Critical Chance, Action Point Gain, Damage Resistance, Deflection Chance, Deflection Severity, Health Regeneration, Damage Gained as Hit Points, etc.)
So with Recovery, you suffer from a DOUBLE diminishing return. Unlike most gear bonuses, ability scores typically affect your % Ratings directly. This means that 1% chance to crit actually means 1% chance to crit. But +200 crit strike would be a variable amount.
This means if you put a lot of points into Int or Cha, you are getting less "bang for your buck" than focusing on Str or Wis. However, unlike Wis and to some degree Str, you can't actually as easily make up the difference in Int/Cha with more Recovery.
I guess the main thing to realize is that a build focused on lower cooldowns is going to be inefficient. I don't think they're worth it, but I don't have a lot of hard data to back that up. It really just depends. I think the optimal way to build a DC is to focus on maximum critical chance, which means getting the highest Str possible.
Second, i guess my aim isnt exactly maxing cooldown reduction, if it were i would build that 23 cha 20 int 7000 recovery build lol :P but no, i'm gonna be aiming for 20/21 cha and 19 int, this allows for my primary and secondary stats total to remain at 44 at rolling while getting as much int(19) as possible. Also i have seen quite a few DCs and they tell me 3k recovery is.... they seem to get it whether they mean to or not so..... i guess the aim is to boost this 3k recovery with as good a stat as possible without sacrificing other stats too badly:P
so while i guess max strength would be.... 24? my end strength would be....15 i guess so...9% crit chance sacrificed... well i'll live with that i guess, but thanks for the advice anyway
People keep saying that, but I feel it's really just an issue with understanding the intention behind the mechanic (or Cryptic's misleading description of it). 1% more RSI will allow you to use your spells 1% more often during the same time frame.
A 10 second cd spell with 0% RSI can be used once in a 10s window. At 100% RSI, the cd is lowered to 5s so the spell can be used twice (i.e. 100% more often) in the same time frame. Which is exactly the kind of linear scaling that 1% crit gives you.
The problem with that mechanic is that with growing RSI values, the reduction in cd becomes so small that tooltips won't even show you any difference for another 1-2% RSI and I'm not sure if Cryptic uses accurate millisecond cooldowns or just rounds them up to .1s like the tooltip does (in which case RSI would suffer distinct losses in value). Either way, reducing your cooldowns by a couple ms has a much less palapable effect than another 1-2% crit chance. But statistically speaking, the effect should be there and as effective as you very first % of RSI.
Great way to explain it. This is how I like to think about it.
Personally I don't see why people find the DR in RSI so bad...Makes perfect sense to me. If you could stack RSI indiscriminetly then everybody would simply stack RSI as much as possible and get whatever other stats they could...I don't think having all your spells on 2-3 second CD would really improve the game
The main reason people are concerned about this has to do with Astral Shield's downtime. I don't feel like plotting it, but with a 10 second duration and a base 20 second cooldown, it's easy to imagine the curve.
Off the top of my head:
RSI | Downtime Reduct. | RSI:Downtime
...
1% | 2% | 1:2 (100%)
10% | 18.18% (+18.18%) | 1:1.82 (91%) 9%
20% | 33.33% (+15.15%) | 1:1.67 (83.5%) 7.5%
30% | 46.15% (+12.82%) | 1:1.54 (77%) 6.5%
40% | 57.14% (+10.99%) | 1:1.43 (71.5%) 5.5%
50% | 66.66% ( +9.52%) | 1:1.33 (66.5%) 5%
...
75% | 85.71% | 1:1.14 (57%)
...
100%| 100% | 1:1 (50%)
So as you can see you start out at about getting two for one downtime reduction per RSI %. The amount of downtime reduction you get per RSI % drops significantly. To have 100% uptime on AS, you get HALF the value from RSI at the end as what you were getting when you started. This DR is the same looking directly at cooldown as well, but I put it like this because "AS uptime" is what people think about most.
The value of RSI the way you put it is apparently in a game like WoW with a "Patchwerk" style encounter, where you just stand around and fire off a rotation non-stop. But for the DC, whose main "heal" is actually Damage Resist, and our main Damage Resist buff is Astral Shield, thinking about getting 1.1 spells per 20 seconds isn't useful. How long until you can put the shield up again IS useful.
But strictly speaking, RSI does indeed not have a diminishing return on powers-per-minute, but it does have a pretty hefty DR on cooldown, which is what most people are looking at, and it's also what the tooltips say: "...how quickly your Encounter powers recharge." It definitely does have a diminishing return to that effect.
Absolutely, but the thing is, being able to shoot of your encounter powers with almost no cooldown would be absurdly powerful! But the main point is being able to compare it to other stats. For example, 100% crit would mean every single attack is a crit. You could technically never get to "zero" cooldowns. Though practically I guess you could, by getting all the cooldowns to below the duration of the activation animation.
Most DCs (dps or heal) seem to feel that crit is usually the way to go so they usually stack str/wis ( start with 16 wis and str or something like that) and since no race gives such a combination of +2 wis +2 str, i think the main idea is to go human for the +3 heroic feats. If you are just sourcing for ideas my build is kinda going against that flow, i not only choose to pump cha instead of the other 2, i also choose to invest points in one of the DC's non primary/secondary stat, Int.
Main reasoning for this build is to stack up the innate stat given recharge speed increase these 2 stats give me.This combined with the naturally high recovery we get from our end game items (3k ++) would let me easily break past 40% Recharge speed increase.
Initial stat roll was to use tiefling, Roll a 14 str 16 wis 14 cha 11 int starter roll, add the tiefling +2 cha and int to get
14str 16wis 16cha 13int. For levelling points go to int every 10 levels and the other 4 get spread between wis and cha so in the end you get 16str 20wis 20cha 19int. So thats my build.
As for powers, basically the early powers are basically choose as you see fit since you dont really use any of them in the end game but there are a few notable powers that do well all the way till 60.
At-will :
astral seal - This has not left my right click since the moment i got it, in solo its awesome to throw astral seal and brand of the sun at a whole bunch of mobs and just let the damage/heal tick while you start picking off individuals with either astral seal spam, encounters or divinity mode punishing light.
Brand of the sun - my other at will for solo play, due to the ability to fire and forget this skill and hence gives you an aoe like at will. Sugggestion when attacking multiple enemies : hold down the mouse button and sweep across the mob slowly, the fire rate is crazy fast :P
Sacred flames - Brand of the sun is replaced with this guy when i go into dungeons. Since i no longer need to be the one who kills stuff, this skill becomes the best after astral seal. It gives a so called healing effect with temporary hitpoints since the damage taken by your team is taken from the temp hitpoints first, so its sort of a preventive healing.
Encounters :
Sun burst - An aoe heal and damage centered around you, apparently it was nerfed a while ago but i did not experience it so i only know what it is like now. Early on its usefull for generating ap and throwing enemies off ledges in divinity mode but later on it loses its charm and the fact that its centered around you kinda makes it bad for later dungeons.
Daunting Light - I believe this is our most powerful damager. without divinity its got a charge up time and a small aoe, making it more of an anti boss/elite skill but activate divinity and you get our most powerfull aoe skill
Forgemaster's flame : i like to bring this in for bosses since the divinity mode grants an aoe heal around the target you hit it with.
Bastion of health : well... its kinda lousy due to the slow build up time but i found that its nice to use during the time my astral shield is down or for dungeons where my team is the type dumb enough to stay in red circles simply due to the fact that i'm healing them sigh.... Anyway it sux due to 1. it dosen heal so much and 2. its got this crazy wind up type where you just stand there. But if there is a need, you can insta cast it in divinity mode for a bigger heal.
Break the spirit Or Divine Glow - i like to bring one of these for bosses simply for the debuff. BTS lowers the boss damage while DG lowers its damage resist. Once again which one i bring really depends on the team.
And finally ASTRAL SHIELD - our best skill in dungeons :P i only activate it in divinity mode and i cast it when ever it comes off cooldown during battle. The healing and damage resist buff makes it one of the best ways to keep the party alive. Of course you gotta hope that the party knows the big blue area on the ground is good for them and stay in it but well....
Class Features :
Healer's lore - I tend to slot this for dungeons simply cause more heals are better
Foresight - This one hasnt left my bar since i put it there, solo it gives you a defense buff, in dungeons you team gets the buff when you heal em, so that mean during astral shield or simply through astral seal
Terrifying insight - This one i tend to slot when i solo cuz more damage
Daily :
hallowed ground - I choose to go with this one over divine armor for the damage buff and the feat moontouched. Basically at max level it gives about 15 seconds of 15% increased damage resist and damage while also healing about i think 25% of everyone's max health by the time its over
Flame strike: i use this since 1. i dont got the hammer of fate daily yet and 2. its a good oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> aoe clearer :P
So yeah, my bar is made up of fixed powers and situational powers.
As for the play style, healing in this game isnt supposed to be looking for the lowest health guy and healing him. In this game i found that the best way to heal is to keep em topped up at 100% full time by using our duration heals ( astral shield, astral seal and forgemaster's flame) from the start of the battle and using powers that debuff the enemy so it does less damage or takes more damage ( divine glow or break the spirit) And in case you do want target healing we got soothing light in divinity mode but.... well its inefficient and all that divinity can be used elsewhere :P
As for feats, well thats you choice of how to put em but in the first page of our dc forums i think theres a pretty good thread that covers our heroic feats. but paragon feats you gotta go for it yourself, i went full faithful so far since nothing in the other 2 trees appealed to me.
Well this turned out to be pretty long so i'll end here with a site http://nwcalc.com/dc . This is a simulator for you to test out power/feat builds before using it on your char, i spent quite a while going through it before and during playing my char and it helps alot, So have fun building a new dc