Call out to Dev Team RE: PvP

deth124 · September 2013

I would like to see a response from the Dev Team regarding PvP balancing. Some resources need to be devoted to adjusting and balancing PvP.

I believe the biggest problem is an overage of CC, but lets look at the classes and their roles in PvP

GF = Tank/low DPS
Pro's = Well timed sheilding can completely block enemy moves
= best team pusher/solo capper/solo defender

Con's = Severe mobility/stickyness issues, mostly due to being locked down
= team oriented combat breaks shield far too fast, should be max shield reduction over certain time. EG max 25% shield loss over 2 secs (maybe there could be an activatable ability that does this?)

GWF = off tank/off pusher/melee dpser
Pro's = good consistent damage output
= suprisingly survivable at low HP
= good at scaring off CWs

Con's = very fragile when CC'd
= gets kited due to overage off CC's on CW
= frail when built improperly (cookie cutter build to be effective)

DC = Healer/Punching bag
Pro's = only healer class
= well geared healers are a team winner
= debuffs are very handy in team fights

Con's = frail, all the time
= holy friggin frail
= *glass shattering* frail

TR = Stealth/High DPS
Pro's = Easy kills
= stealth (capping, getting to enemy back line, escaping)
= Best single target CC in the game (overpowered, lasts far too long with the amount of damage they can despense)
= difficult to lock down

Con's = Squishy, but they should be
= skilled GF's can negate their openers

CW = CC machine/High DPS/Ranged
Pro's = Ranged with teleport dodging
= Multiple forms of CC with no diminishing returns even on the same skill used repeatedly
= can chain CC's correctly and drop 100% of enemy HP with them getting near you

Con's = frail, but they should be
= uuuuummmm......
= hmmmmmmm......
= is there really anything?
= OK, so maybe TR's can annihilate them, but shouldn't a rogue always eat the wizard? in every game? ever?

Keep in mind, I'm not a pro at this, and that is not the intention of this post. I am a mid level player experimenting with multiple classes and testing the aspects of this game. I'm basically checking to see whether this game is worth a couple years of game play and for me to open up my wallet, or just play for a couple weeks and go find a better PvP (with great PvE) game. There's more and more companies out there that actually listen to people instead of just build for profit.

So, with that said, PvP does have some real potential, but it badly needs attention. There are many ways to skin this animal, but I'll toss a couple out there.

#1. Change how some abilities work when in PvP/targeting players in PvP. This would allow for a lot of tweaking to PvP without affecting the PvE game at all.
a.) Reduce CC's across the board, but particularly the CW (increase mobility to compensate)
b.) Clerics need a bubble or something on a long CD (not daily), something they can click in that "oh s*%t" moment
c.) GF's shield needs to be a little more resistant to the insta-break that happens at a team clash. Once your shield is down and you the front man, guess what, your getting CC chained. Mind you if a.) was followed this would be much less of a problem because you could then have a chance at running to your back line to recover.
d.) Reduce TR lockout to 2 secs, reduce CD time to compensate. The lockout is just plain too long, playing a TR was way to easy to gib someone, especially clerics and CWs. Playing against it as a GF, once it happens you just watch your HP bar melt, helplessly, and if you survive it, your now at such a disadvantage the TR just happily chases and finishes the job. A tank should not get wrecked by 1 move.
e.) If not d.) then give GF's a remove all ability, cleansing and protecting from status effects for a few secs.

The beauty of these example is that it would be very easy to counter tweak if abilities had a dual effect in PvP. Take some time on the beta and test it out.

#2. Add leveling PvP rewards
a.) Give players scaling gear that scales up in levels with Glory paid upgrading process
b.) add a minimum 1 tier of gear for every 10 levels (each bracket gets gear at minimum level). The gear would be very strong but not good in the PvE environment(see point #3).
c.) I've seen it requested probably the most, Unique PvP mounts bought with Large amounts of Glory (3 tiers would be nice, 15K glory, 20K glory and 30K glory for each tier of riding)

#3. Add a PvP only stat on PvP gear, defining it as such and giving the option of having access to strong PvP gear but not making PvE too easy because the overpowered gear (assuming you get each tier of PvP gear at levels 20, 30, 40, 50, 60) is accessible for the lower ranks of the brackets (reducing gear gap between say a level 31 and an enemy level 38.

#4. Add new game types from the low brackets up, and at least one mid bracket and up (I know the 20vs20 is coming) This would mean you would have 4 different game modes.

a.) {low bracket up} Capture the Flag. 10 man, 5 per side So easy to make, win win if you go for this battle game

b.) {mid bracket up} Assault & Defend. 20 man 4 teams (2 per side) square off. Each team must defend their base for 1 round and assault the enemy's base for 1 round. Players switch roles at halftime. Most damage scored on the enemy base wins. Players could first defend a door, then have a small group of NPCs assist them in defending, defending team suffers revive time penalty. Assaulting team gains the assault buff and raises defense and damage. It would be intended to give the attacking team the advantage because you want damage to be scored on the base.

#5. Deal with the AFK'er issue. That's just being plain and simple lazy, come on dev's. I'm getting too many double afk's in a 5 man match. 3v5 is not fun, 4v5 is not really fun either.

These are just some of the many ways the games PvP performance could be improved, as I said, there's plenty of ways to skin an animal. I really hope to hear what the Dev Team has to say regarding the future of PvP in Neverwinter.

I hope to see quality replies from posters as trolls/and unsupported comments that dilute the subject will be ignored. Thanks for reading.

ZMetal

cribstaxxx · September 2013

I don't know whether is lack of gear, bad build, or what but let me help you with some things...

GF = Heavy burst damage, moderately tanky, CD reliant

Pros - Block damage and CC fairly easily, chain CC can kill 1 player generally, good point defender
Cons - Block depletes very quickly, after CC must wait on CD's to be effective again

GWF = Incredible tank, amazing point capper and holder

Pros - Very tanky, can hold a point until 2-3 players are sent to make him retreat, very mobile with sprint
Cons - Low DPS without Tene's, even with still lower than other classes, can be taken out fairly quickly with shocking execution

DC = Support, Healer, awesome point holder

Pros - can keep entire team healed as well as mitigate their damage taken, can be extremely tanky with correct feats/gear
Cons - needs a teammate nearby to be useful (self explanatory as this is a support class) no damage, first to be focused

TR - Assassin, clears squishy targets, softens tanky targets

Pros - Can be built for heavy burst or good sustained DPS, with good loadout can remain stealthed while softening targets
Cons - Dies very quickly when CC'd, can be brought out of stealth easily with AOE or dots

CW - Ranged dps, CC'er, Debuffer

Pros - Good at debuffing very tanky targets to increase team damage, good CC though only lasts ~1 second per spell, can stay back from the fight, 3 dodges.

Cons - Very squishy, spells easily dodged, bad point capper as you need to stand off point to stay away from CC, can be burst killed easily without proccing soulforged

Diminishing returns on CC while it sounds good in theory will make GF worthless, CW even squishier than it already is, and GWF will be an absolute monster. This is the opposite of balance.

deth124 · September 2013

Well, I do appreciate the time you took in your reply, but you do realize you just re-wrote most of what I said? And with no explanation on why/how DR's would wreck GF's or make CW's squishier. You have to balance one thing with another, for example. If you do reduce the PvP CC potential of a CW, then you must give them more mobility or physical defense. If you increase the shielding potential of a GF, you would have to nerf his CC potential. Everything would have a balancing effect, it takes time and discussion, not dismissal and vague assumptions of what will be an end result.

Still want to say again, thank you for taking time to reply and not trolling because I'm not solely talking about endgame, if you can't entice players as they level, how will they experience endgame content? Easy answer, they won't.

cribstaxxx · September 2013

GF is only there for prone juggle and burst, if his 2nd or 3rd prone does nothing what is the point of his prone duration feats? why even put more than 1 prone on the bar? At that point why take a GF over a TR?

If my CW goes to CC an enemy that is charging at me but that enemy got hit by a cc 6 seconds ago and mine does nothing how do I survive? Why ever build oppressor as chill stacks are useless lol? why slot more than 1 CC?

Not to mention survivability build TR's will wreck shop with regen and stealth since they can't be CC'd long enough to be killed.

my GWF already tanks 3 players no problem, the times he dies are when he's proned multiple times and can't unstoppable, with diminishing CC he would be nearly unkillable. I could just retreat to the potion and run right back every time I got low.

Chain CC is a big part of PvP in this game, it's what divides the players that have no teamwork or focus from the ones that do. Without CC it would just be full glass cannon burst DPS matches with 1-2 shotting being the only way to handle tanky characters.

The ONLY build for GF would be 3 burst abilities with P. vorpal, the ONLY build for GWF would be super tank, the ONLY build for TR would be LB + first strike + P. vorpal, the ONLY build for CW would be full debuff/DPS with P. vorpal

It would be completely un fun without CC working as intended

rompetr0ll · September 2013

before taking on this stuff, better find a way to match up groups more evenly. As it's now, you can be in a group with all green people against a group with CN/t2 gear all perfect enchantments. That's just not fun. Having a close match is way too rare in this game.

benskix2 · September 2013

It's difficult to judge class balance when you're in matches that may also have severe skill and gear imbalances as well. IMO I think the classes are pretty well balanced, but some cheese builds using very expensive enchants make people think some classes are totally overpowered, as does not understanding what armor enchants do or when they are working.

I don't think it's worth investing much real money in the game at this point, because they keep implementing radical balance patches that may make a build you spent alot of time and money on ineffective, and its just too expensive to replace or re slot a bunch of enchants that may no longer make sense for your build. It's a PTW game, and those usually don't have much longevity.

I disagree slightly with your class descriptions of the GWF and GF. GWF's are better solo point capturers than GFs, and the built GFs actually do more damage to me than a GWF, and leave me prone while doing it. A GF can be whittled down effectively by a single player kiting it, while with a GWF you may have to settle for a stalemate on the point because alot of them regenerate more HP than you can take off without having multiple players to stun lock them or getting a few lucky crits.

I think the game has alot of potential because the combat system is great, but they do need to to have a lot more PVP content than 2 5v5 maps and GG once or twice a day for me to feel like spending any significant amount of money.

cribstaxxx · September 2013

correct, with equal gear the game is actually quite balanced. I do guild vs. guild matches daily and they are very fun. Usually 1000 to 950 or so.

dkcandy · September 2013

PvP is impossible to balance and why you should NEVER try to balance PvP and just focus on PvE. Blizzard has spent over 8yrs and still can't balance PvP.

antonkyle · September 2013

dkcandy wrote: »

PvP is impossible to balance and why you should NEVER try to balance PvP and just focus on PvE. Blizzard has spent over 8yrs and still can't balance PvP.

Have you ever played wow PVP? There are many reasons why I no longer bother with wow. PVP is not one of them. If Neverwinter implemented only half of what wow has learnt PVP would be ten times as good.

xelliz · September 2013

rompetr0ll wrote: »

before taking on this stuff, better find a way to match up groups more evenly. As it's now, you can be in a group with all green people against a group with CN/t2 gear all perfect enchantments. That's just not fun. Having a close match is way too rare in this game.

Exactly, I mean you could just wipe out the entire class explanations posted and shorten it down to.

13k+ GS and high level enchants vs 8k GS = **** you ****

valliv · September 2013

had a match where x3 players in the other team (2x GF hp+Tene's) + a good Cleric, basicly whooped our team so bad it wasn't funny.
Had their x2 pug team'mates (x2 rogues) been only semi decent (probably the two worst TR's I've ever seen). it would have ended 0 vs 1000.

My rogue with around 9.6GS Ranked 4th in score and 3rd in kills.
while the GF's dominated the scoreboard all around. with only the cleric with fewer kills, but high score.
Getting one shotted by a Tene build GF can be rather annoying when you know you will only do half his hp's with a LS + lurker if he doesnt manage to shield it.

I would give a guess that just those x3 characters had about 42+k'ish gear score while my team had maybe around total of 45k lol.
at least two of those on my team had around 8k Gs

and I think the others were around the 9k mark. (8k+8k+9k+9k+9k = 33k)
*basing my teams gs from memmory, but I'm pretty sure (guessing.) that those GF's were endgame fitted, or pretty close to it. and the cleric wasn't too shabby either

*GF do get an extra boost on their Gs but still it's a tad funny calculation ;D

Their 2 rogues were laughable thou.. so they didnt really count, =D
It was a fun game though. ;D
the Trio was polite and were having fun without being cocky about it.

(the rogues were another story. rude and horrid players and were on the bottom of the list after the match)

munkey81 · September 2013

dkcandy wrote: »

PvP is impossible to balance and why you should NEVER try to balance PvP and just focus on PvE. Blizzard has spent over 8yrs and still can't balance PvP.

/10 To you sir. This is all that needs to be said about PvP.

It is IMPOSSIBLE...to "Balance" any sort of PvP. Why? Because one cannot possibly even remotely predict how a certain person, or group of people are going to play. Thus ever trying to "balance" anything in PvP is pointless, and ends up just HAMSTER up the PvE portion of the game.

Diminishing Returns is the only thing that is a viable option in my opinion to help balance anything in PvP. The OP made a decent comment about adding DR, but then having to upgrade say a CW's defense etc. Good point. But I disagree. Having diminishing returns is just going to make you bring more skill into PvP, and less button mashing.

A perfect example is Guildwars 2. In a pvp match, every single person has the exact same abilities, gear sets to chose from to compete in PvP, and still. People cry such and such class is OP on forums. Pulling numbers out of my HAMSTER for just an example.

100% Population
45% "Like" to PvP
55% Want nothing to do with PvP and play just the PvE side of the game

Of those 45% of PvP'rs. I would venture to say 8% of them are actually "good" at PvP.
Of that 8% of "good" PvP'rs. 3% are going to be elite.
The Remaining 37% of those people that "like" to PvP are bad. Some learn, get a little better, very very small % of them become Elite. But generally this 37% is the reason MMO's take a giant dump in the first couple months of being released. These are the forum idiots, trolls and whinny babies who everytime they die in PvP they just HAVE to make a forum thread of how OP another class is.

Bottom line here dudes. Not everyone is meant to play PvP.

Game makers need to introduce DIminishing Returns into PvP. THATS IT.
If those 37% want to cry because THEY feel /insert class is OP. The ONLY answer coming from the game maker should be.
"Stop playing PvP if you dont like it".

Of course this is just "my" personal opinion but I have been playing hard core PvP for many many years, and seen alot of good games come and go very quickly because of these "37%'rs".

Remove Righteousness completely
Add Diminishing Returns

All the rest is L2P issues

Alysin Chains
Mindflayer
EoG

deth124 · September 2013

Great points regarding matchmaking. Premades should be versus premades.
If you read the section I posted regarding the adding of PvP gear for the start of brackets, that should alleviate a lot of gear imbalance.
I'm not sure several of the posters understand that if something were to be taken or givin, you would have to balance that action somehow. I don't seek perfect 'balance' I seek a resolution to getting CC chained to death over and over, it's just not fun to play that.
I'd also like to say that something could be done about the GWF's overpoweredness, but i'm least familiar with the GWF, that's why I had little suggestion for them, that can be a real pain(perhaps reduce the regen??).
I could list my other 187 ideas but I don't have the time any I'm sure no one cares to read something that long. My ideas are just that, ideas.
I'd like to see less complaining and more suggestions on solutions. If this thread is unproductive, we will never see a dev reply.

degraafination · September 2013

PVP is pretty weak in NW, and I PVP a lot.

Here are (what I believe to be) the two biggest issues for some semblance of PVP balance.

1) Tenebrous enchantments. Fortunately, they aren't making any more of these and some players who had them mysteriously disappeared after an instance with a Sharandar quest. I still run into a GF or GWF with Greater Tenebrous from time to time. So OP.

2) Regen Sentinel GWFs. We just did an in house PMvPM. The oppossing team had a Regen Sentinel GWF. They were absolutely destroying us (800-300 ish) when the Sent DCed. We came back and won. It shouldn't take 3-4 people to take down one build. There's tanky, and then there's stupid-tanky.

As a CW, my biggest bane are well-geared TRs, but I'm not complaining. I get 1-2-shotted all the time. So it goes. I have mad CC and get my kills as well.

pandorath6 · September 2013

I would have to disagree completely. Being a very avid pvp'er and a huge theory crafter, math guy, min/maxer I can confidently say that this game has very balanced classes from an equal GS and skill level stand point. The only thing this game needs from a pvp standpoint is more options. Different maps, different game modes, rated arenas, spectator mode and tournaments and you can easily see the pvp/e-sport crowd roll in. Just make that happen and profit.

alderonthedraco · September 2013

First thing the devs should do is end the stunlock in PVP, but for this possibly have to do away with the limitation of motion of SOME at-wills (all classes should be able to pursue moving targets with their basic attacks and only powers slower -encounters- require that the character stand still for a few seconds).

antonkyle · September 2013

pandorath6 wrote: »

I would have to disagree completely. Being a very avid pvp'er and a huge theory crafter, math guy, min/maxer I can confidently say that this game has very balanced classes from an equal GS and skill level stand point. The only thing this game needs from a pvp standpoint is more options. Different maps, different game modes, rated arenas, spectator mode and tournaments and you can easily see the pvp/e-sport crowd roll in. Just make that happen and profit.

I could not agree any more with this post. Why do people not see it. Combat is so fun in this game at a PVP level but the maps suck. PVP is a drag when it should be a stand out feature.

Also PVP players spend more. I don't know that as fact but you would have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

zalcs · September 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

Have you ever played wow PVP? There are many reasons why I no longer bother with wow. PVP is not one of them. If Neverwinter implemented only half of what wow has learnt PVP would be ten times as good.

This is so true, pvp feels like some random thing they just added in after creating the game, that they haven't done anything about since then.

Call out to Dev Team RE: PvP

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