After the patch.....Renegade still?

bkloes · August 2013

Hey all, been reading up on changes and I was wondering what the theory is to work with the most recent changes? Snap Freeze....is it still good? Sounds like they nerfed it? Also I was reading that storm pillar is gonna replace shield as an AP generator? I could have read that wrong as there is so many posts on various things.

ragulol · August 2013

I started as rene, than switched to copticone-like build, and it was good, but with the recent changes i think rene is better, simply because the first 4 feats in thaum are useless(for a thiefling). Snap freeze not working on dailies is a fail, but still nothing better in the beggining of the thaum tree.
I think rene will really shine now with the EotS changes, AP changes, Sudden storm changes. Rene can take his standard feat-tree, adding critical power and bitter cold, having 0 useless feats.
Thaum is still better support\debuff but rene now is the powerhorse.

wondras · August 2013

I dont agree, first of all - its a myth, Tempest Magic does work for Teifling.
And second, I am renegade and I feel a lot weaker now when I cant charge my AP with shield and EF on tab is now a must, there are only a little AoEs now, making COI more desirable... and since thaum benefits from COI much more I assume thaum will be a lot stronger now.

ragulol · August 2013

wondras wrote: »

I dont agree, first of all - its a myth, Tempest Magic does work for Teifling.
And second, I am renegade and I feel a lot weaker now when I cant charge my AP with shield and EF on tab is now a must, there are only a little AoEs now, making COI more desirable... and since thaum benefits from COI much more I assume thaum will be a lot stronger now.

I did not say it doesnt work, i said its useless(they doesnt stack, so all you get is +5% damage under 30% target hp ~1,5% DPS fot 5 feat points is kinda useless)
Who needs that AP anyway, 1-2 AS is enough for ads-cleaning, no need to spam it if you can just kill them. Not to mention you will have more AP in rene than thaum. EF on tab really sucks, viable only in CN on draco imo, there is no need for it othervise, repel on tab will do better if you need some pushing.

EDIT: maybe i was wrong, rene with EF on tab\SS\SoteA\ST + oppressive force needs testing

Little AOEs? Go and check out the new Sudden storm which out-dpses COI on the same amount of targets and dont have a target cap of 5. OFC you can say that CoI on thaum is stronger, but really it is only 15% mitigation, which is up for a half of the time at best(and the -mitigation debuff from MM in rene is up for 33% of time), and with the recent changes to EotS, you can have 70+% crit and phantasmal destruction allways up with 40+% combat advantage hits via procced nightmare wizardry.

Imo rene with CoI\IT\ST\SS+EotS will do better than thaum with the same powers+chilling presence in aoe damage, and with MM+IR\ROE\COI\CS(orSS)+EotS than Thau with the same +chilling cloud\chilling presence in single-target damage

I really liked thaum with snap freeze and all the debuffing, was great for pvp(RoE-CoI(non-mastery)-EF-IR\IK) and pve, but now the new EotS is just too sexy to pass it, even more if you have vorpal, and snap freeze not working with ice storm\IK makes me sad, and makes rene more attractive for me atm.

exarkun007 · August 2013

How is sudden storm on AP generation though? I havent been specced into it since forever.

khalibus · August 2013

Sudden storm is surprisingly good for AP gain. It recasts pretty quickly so I was tossing AS a lot more often than I thought I would. Damage is great too. I actually really enjoyed the substitution for shield last night.

dimentium9 · August 2013

The new EotS mechanics are a joke LOL (in a good way for us CW's). I always drifted between Thaum and Renegade over the past few months, but now I am definitely sticking with Renegade (well at least until the next set of changes). Renegade with EotS and a Vorpal is AMAZING right now.

tokse2 · August 2013

dimentium9 wrote: »

The new EotS mechanics are a joke LOL (in a good way for us CW's). I always drifted between Thaum and Renegade over the past few months, but now I am definitely sticking with Renegade (well at least until the next set of changes). Renegade with EotS and a Vorpal is AMAZING right now.

Hmm, perhaps I should respec. What encounters do you use now that shield is gone?

gakonastick · August 2013

tokse2 wrote: »

Hmm, perhaps I should respec. What encounters do you use now that shield is gone?

Most of the cw's I've run with are using their old setup, but replacing shield with either sudden storm or shard of the avalanche.

freedumb4eva · August 2013

ragulol wrote: »

I started as rene, than switched to copticone-like build, and it was good, but with the recent changes i think rene is better, simply because the first 4 feats in thaum are useless(for a thiefling). Snap freeze not working on dailies is a fail, but still nothing better in the beggining of the thaum tree.
I think rene will really shine now with the EotS changes, AP changes, Sudden storm changes. Rene can take his standard feat-tree, adding critical power and bitter cold, having 0 useless feats.
Thaum is still better support\debuff but rene now is the powerhorse.

Tempest Magic does sort of interfere with the Tiefling racial, but they do work together. I don't think that they work at the same time, though.

I was able to modify a Thaumaturge build for the new patch: A Thaumaturge Build for Fury of the Feywild

It's very simple and I have applied my feats to max out AP gain/AoE damage, while also maintaining sight of single target damage via Icy Rays for PvE and PVP.

I would recommend Renegade for those people who can afford a Vorpal Enchantment. I think that Renegade has gotten a huge buff with the fix to Sudden Storm. Now that it can crit, Renegades should be seeing a lot of big numbers.

gakonastick wrote: »

Most of the cw's I've run with are using their old setup, but replacing shield with either sudden storm or shard of the avalanche.

That's smart, IMO. I prefer Sudden Storm, but I've also used Shard of the Endless Avalanche to great success. I am trending towards encounters that do not knock mobs about. One great thing about Shard of the Endless Avalanche is that it hits twice if done correctly for that effect.

ragulol wrote: »

EDIT: maybe i was wrong, rene with EF on tab\SS\SoteA\ST + oppressive force needs testing

That will do a huge amount of damage but will fall off when there aren't many targets to hit with EF. EF on mastery is a huge boost to AP gain as long as there are multiple targets. The Oppressive Force spam is a huge damage boost. SotEA can hit twice giving two chances to crit with huge crit damage via Vorpal Enchantment and Phantasmal Destruction. I think that this is a viable build but I might substitute EF on tab occasionally, if I were to go Renegade. Then again, there aren't many great options for a Renegade to place on Mastery.

tokse2 wrote: »

Hmm, perhaps I should respec. What encounters do you use now that shield is gone?

I've replaced Shield with Sudden Storm.

kidbs · August 2013

I have to say that it's nice to have options now. I think both Thauma and Renegade builds are viable now. The only problem is I am torn now :-/ I personally love playing a chill build, but the crit synergies from renegade are nice as well. I wonder if there is a certain level of the vorpal enchant that is required to make Renegade pull ahead of the Thauma chill passive builds?

I also wonder if a hybrid build taking no final tier trait would work best. Something along the lines of http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,13g3i50:66000:6z0u0:6z500&h=0

This would still give you frozen power transfer along with the crit severity and combat advantage buffs from Renegade.

After the patch.....Renegade still?

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