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Best base stats in endgame for PVE Wizard?
valeriob80
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 155 Bounty Hunter
How much INT-WIS-CAR should a 100% PVE wizard have in endgame? Should I go for a balanced 20-20-20 or leave one at 12 and rise the other two? Wich ones should I prefere?
Post edited by valeriob80 on
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As I stated somewhere before, WIS gives minor bonus to minor numbers. What is 4% bonus to 1 second? Miserable bonus, isn't it? Same for class feature "Orb of Imposition". Recharge speed from WIS with current formula is useless too. Just calculate by yourself: <cooldown> = <base cooldown>/(1+<recharge speed bonus %>/100). AP bonus from WIS is a minor increase of minor numbers too. Most powerfull AP gain from tabbed EF (waste of tab slot btw) gains you 25~30% of your bar. 4% from 30 is 1,2. Great increase, isn't it?
That's why WIS is completely useless stat for wizard.
We could say the same for CHA. I mean, if a crit deals +75% damage (but I don't know at all how much could you take the Critical Severity in endgame... if it's like +300% then I'll have to reconsider the whole thing), then a +10% crit chance means that you will do +75% damage 10% of the time, so a +7,5% damage on average. The same 10 points on WIS would give you a 10% faster recharge, a 10% control bonus, a 10% control resistance and a 10% AP gain. Isn't the trade ok?
So the question is: how much bonus damage could you get from criticals in endgame?
But still: criticals aren't dangerous in taking aggro away from the tank? (please forgive me if I'm saying nonsenses, I came from other mmorpgs, still have to get used to this one)
I agree for the reasons posted above :-)
4 encounters, each of which can now be cast 4% more often, each of which do about 50% more dps than an at will, or a measly 3% dps across the whole cycle? (chance*severity=0.04*.75=3%). the answers is clear...
i stacked wisdom instead of charisma while leveling. then i stacked recovery gear at 60. my recharge is approaching 52%. i dont have room in my spell cycle for at wills.
(Emphasis mine.)
4% of 50% is 2%, so I'd say a measly 3% DPS increase is pretty competitive.
I stacked CHA instead of Wisdom, and basically ignored Recovery (ending up at about 2,700) and my recharge is somewhere around 42%. So you can use encounters 10 / 152 = roughly 6.5% more often than I can, assuming you aren't dodging, or locked in an animation, at the time when the power comes off cooldown.
In exchange, I get at least an extra 4 points of crit chance from CHA, and god only knows how much more I gain in ArPen/crit rating.
Let's be clear: we're talking about minute differences in the grand scheme of things. Given your testimony, my real concern would be how much Recovery you stacked at the expense of more efficient stats (Arpen/Crit/Lifesteal); the WIS thing isn't really at issue.
Nope. WIS diminishing itself at recharge bonus. You already has 40%+. Let's do some rough calculations. 50% recharge bonus gives 33% cooldown reduction. Another 50% gives only 17%. Got it? As for AP gain, as I mentioned, it's only 1.2% extra AP from EF on tab. And you know my attitude to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on tab slot. Adn extra 0.04 seconds of control on mobs... well, do you ever notice this difference?
In conclusion: WIS is a complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for wizard.
You make it seem like at 52% recharge you have much lower cooldown than an avg CW that took CHA instead of WIS. I am one of those avg CWs and I have just over 45%. So in your typical trash pull, even the ones where we actually have to burn down the trash rather than toss them, you won't even get 1 extra encounter over me.
Investing in WIS wouldn't let you to sacrifice equip bonus recovery for power, giving you anyway damage bonus but a more "stable" one? The problem for me is that the game is not very clear at the beginning on how calculations in endgame works.
<cooldown> = <base cooldown>/(1+<recharge speed bonus %>/100)
Profit from WIS scales down with your gear, while 1% bonus CA damage and 1% critical from CHA is stabile.
When you invest in Wisdom, you're not getting a 1% cooldown duration reduction, you're getting a 1% improvement to your recharge speed. So, having it at 50% would not mean that a twenty-second cooldown spell would take only 10 seconds to recharge. It'd actually would be 20 seconds / (1+0.50) = 13.3 seconds.
Not quite half, despite the total recharge being 50%
Kerrovitarra is also expressing that going for a higher wisdom stat actually gives a bonus, which - at endgame - ends up being "a drop in the sea" when you add up over Recovery-boosting items. In the end, the benefit would seem hardly noticeable.
Let's assume my previous example was at Wisdom 22. Wisdom 14 - what CWs prioritizing Int/Cha would probably have at endgame - results in a 42% recharge speed improvement (8% less); which would result in a 14 second cooldown instead.
Another piece of information to help with the mental picture of how much benefit Wisdom really gives to cooldowns: you need a 100% recharge rate to halve the cooldowns of your spells. So, you're really getting half-a-percent from a Wisdom point, rather than a full one in terms of effectiveness, due to the way the CrypticDevs formula works.
* * *
In contrast, any point devoted to Charisma is actually a full percent benefit. Having Charisma 20 actually means a full 10% increase to your chance of doing a critical hit.
Wisdom does give more bonuses aside from Recharge Speed. There's AP gain, but having a 12% bonus versus a 4% bonus is the difference between gaining 5.6% AP or 5.2% AP from a Shield-Release. Same for control duration: a spell 3 seconds long with a 12% control duration would only really last 3.36 seconds.
However, that too ends up feeling like drops in a sea. The difference is fairly hard to notice. If you add in the factor of human error and latency, we're probably - in truth - quite unable to make the most out of those increases.
In comparison, Charisma results in lending a bonus to making something good happen, and the more you have, the more likely it's to happen - and if you can get it to happen frequently, then it becomes even more viscerally noticeable.
Recharge reduction is poorly named. It should be called something more like, "power-use frequency." What Cryptic's measuring isn't a 50% reduction to the cooldown, in other words; Cryptic's measuring a 50% boost in the amount of times you can use the power over a given period.
In other words, if you have a 10-second cooldown initially, and you add 50% in recharge reduction, you end up with a cooldown of 10 / 1.5 = 6.67 seconds.
Leaving aside the time it takes to cast each spell, let's pretend that you (with your 50% in recharge reduction) and a buddy (with zero recharge reduction) are standing side-by-side, spamming your encounters when they come off cooldown:
Over a 20 seconds period, you'll use each encounter 3 times. Your friend will use each encounter 2 times. 3 / 2 = 150%.
There are no diminished returns, per se. The amount of time cut from the cooldown for each successive point of Recharge reduction diminishes, but the speed bonus you receive is linear. If one car goes 50mph, a second car goes 100mph, and a third car goes 150mph, then a 50 mile trip will take 1 hour for the first car, 30 minutes for the second car, and 20 minutes for the third car -- but we don't say that there are diminished returns there, even though the last chunk of 50mph only bought us 10 minutes, because as the time measurement approaches zero, speed must approach infinity.
Same deal with recharge reduction. If the developers gave us what's on the label, then a 100% recharge reduction would represent an infinite bonus; encounters would effectively become At-Wills. So instead of giving us the exponentially accelerated return that the label implies, they give us a linear return on power use.
and the fact a lot of end game adds are immune to control. and the fact no one respects control.
also the number of mobs controlled does not show up in the end of skirmish popup.
On a side note, crits can come from eye of the storm, especially with the module 1 changes. You don't even need to stack too much of it, it's an auto crit when it procs, and on the test server, it's even better than it is now.
Yea I guess CoI apply chill on every tick, Icy terrain doing the same, mobs freezing every 1-3 second independent from each other meaning you are constantly mitigating party damage, Steal Time Stun, and Shield pulse to toss or disperse or shove towards a corner of the room, and Singularity do not qualify as "Control" as long as you are topping dps. DPS is control, period. If your party has awful DPS, and/or your healer is subpar, you can throw Singularities back to back and will STILL have party wipes every 20 seconds. Why? Because the mobs aren't dying fast enough, hence not being "controlled".
The difference between the "control" focused CWs and those that play a well rounded CW, is that the later can control CC immune mobs lol
PS. I am not directing my reply to you diagene0, just using your post to make my point.
now to properly consider the argument against recovery/WIS, ... if i had 50% cooldown rate, encounters cooling time would be 1/(1+0.5)=0.6667 of base, and is equivelent to saying i'm capable of casting 1.5x more encounters per period time. if i increase my cooldown rate by 1%, then encounters cooling time would be 1/(1+0.51)=0.6623 of base, and is equivelent to saying i'm capable of casting 1.51x more encounters per period time. that 1% cooldown rate was worth an increase of (1.51/1.5)-1=0.667% more encounters per period.
in a way similiar to how recovery/WIS experience diminishing returns, critical chance does so as well. furthermore, as it was shown above at 50% effects of critical chance vs cooldown rate, adding 1% critical chance is worth less dps than 1% cooldown rate is worth encounter cast frequency.
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yeap, you got me there. but, you only got me on a typo. considering your contributions to this board, i would have thought you would have realized that. lets fix my typo and change '50% more' to '500%'. redoing your math, 4% * 400% = 16%. i'll be fair, originally '500%' was meant as an exaggeration, but in my set of excounters, the average encounter does no less than 2.5x MM dps. (4% * 150% = 6%) animation time shouldn't be considered because if a red warning outline appears before i began to cast my (slightly) longer encounter animation, then i move out of the warning area before i cast my encounter and just begin to cast sooner. if the red warning area appears after i begin casting an encounter, then i'll still have enough time to avoid the incoming attack after the encounter animation is complete. as long as your not lagged to heck, theres no problem here. this argument is not about arpen. arpen cant be gotten by a CW through any ability stat. i do take up arpen whereever we can get it, if i can get it. the argument is about the stats WIS offers vs the stats CHA offers... and on that note, and since you mentioned efficiency, lets consider this link: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj. notice how the effect gain per rating is higher in recovery vs critical? that means recovery is more efficient. and considered as a per rating basis, the end effect is the compound with what i've already shown above (1% recover > 1% critical) and the more efficient nature of recovery.
lastly, its not just a recovery vs else issue... the ability stats like WIS and CHA, and INT for that matter end up meaning a ton at end game. for eg. where if you were already at 3500 crit rating (+17.2% critical chance), it would take over another 500 crit rating to gain another 1% critical chance. where as to get the first 1% cooldown rate it only costs 200 recovery. therefore, you would obviously have more potential to crank your CHA so you need less critical rating, than to dump in WIS to reach your desired amount of cooldown rate to not need any recovery rating - as overall you would need less total rating to reach your desired levels.
However, with a bonus to critical %, you don't have to make certain to fire off your encounter powers immediately upon cool down to keep the benefits gained with Charisma. The Critical % bonus is never going to go to waste.
The Wis based recovery bonus will go to waste anytime you do not cast your encounter immediately after it cools down. The difference in recovery time is at most one or two tenths of a second, correct?
Then, there is this most important fact of all. Would you rather be the smart guy (wisdom) or the guy all the chicks want to have sex with at the party? (Charisma)
For me, personally, the choice is clear. hehe
It's not obvious to me that the average encounter does way more than 150% of the average At-Will power's damage. If you think that should have been obvious to me, then I apologize for disappointing you. If I had to guess, I'd say that 150-200% is a decent estimate of the average encounter's damage potential versus the average At-Will's (per activation, or per round in the case of an At-Will), but I have no firm basis for that estimate. Certainly I haven't any data to suggest that a 150% estimate is so low as to be laughable.
There are high-damage encounters, and there are relatively mediocre-damage encounters. There are unlimited-target AoE-damage encounters, and there are single-target encounters. There are slow-to-activate encounters, and there are near-instant-activation encounters. By how much, precisely, a given encounter will outdamage an At-Will depends on the situation and on the At-Will to which you compare it. Of course, there are encounters that can absolutely crush any At-Will given a sufficiently target-rich environment, but to say that your initial average estimate was obviously so so low that I must be obtuse not to have realized it is a bit of a stretch, from where I'm sitting.
The point here is that recharge bonuses are subject to heavy situational/practical/qualitative caveats. If your extra recharge allows you to cast your encounters more often then that's great -- but that advantage is only as good as your ability actually to activate encounters at the very moment that they recharge.
Animation time and time spent dodging absolutely, irrefutably play into that.
Frankly, your rebuttal here seems unresponsive. If your cooldown for let's say Sudden Storm is 0.5 seconds shorter than mine, but you find yourself often caught in the middle of a 2-second Steal Time animation when Sudden Storm recharges, then your advantage vanishes. Likewise, if you spend let's say 3 seconds out of every 10 second period dodging, then your window of opportunity to use your encounters at the very moment they come off cooldown is significantly reduced. Recharge bonuses might not have diminished returns in principle, but the returns that they give you correspond to such small increments of time that it may be difficult to exploit them in practice.
The same caveats do not apply to standing DPS bonuses like crit, because they confer the same benefit no matter how often both parties can attack (assuming the situation is equal for both parties). In other words, if you and I are both in a situation where we can only attack for 5 seconds out of every 10, I'm still benefiting from my extra crit, whereas you're probably getting nothing whatsoever out of your extra recharge.
None of which is to say that Recharge bonuses are useless. It's just that there's a point after which they become comparatively unappealing. Since Wizards get a fair chunk of recharge from their primary attribute (INT), and since T1/T2 Wizards ought to end up with 2500-3000 Recovery without even trying, it's hard to get exercised over the extra handful of recharge you can realistically achieve through stacked WIS and consciously stacked Recovery gear.