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Attn. Devs: before you nerf TR you need to read this
thesnowleopard
Member Posts: 34
this is not another 'QQ nerf TR' thread. this is a balance thread.
so before you try to shoot 9001 holes in this understand what i'm driving at.
Rogues aren't broken. The class is well conceived and the powers are stellar.
That said, as a guardian main and cleric alt, pvp sucks. It is not fun.
I'm so fed up I've been boycotting inviting them into my guild; that's a problem.
My rogue friend helped me run tests.
We are not t4 geared but we are even and over9000 geared.
With numbers, not conjecture.
Drider kill-time:
1:30 GF
0:23 TR (averaged)
GF (tank spec):
* ~650/cleave, 1100 on crit
*~1000/aggravating strike, 2250 on crit(slower attack speed)
TR (crit spec):
* "2-4k non crit, 4-15k crit, no other powers in use"/duelist flurry
* "duelists fury is more like 12 hits after the main 2"
* wide range of damage, high chance of crit, bleed damage bonus
* very long animation, can be dodged
So what we see here is about what I expected before I ran the numbers.
TR does, on a good day, 5x my dps as a GF. On a bad day (a very bad day) 3x my dps.
That is good. They are supposed to. That is their role in the game and nerfing dps will break the class without fixing the problem.
The problem is hitpoints.
Base hitpoints (gearless):
GF: 25,890hp, 22con + 3/3 toughness feat (+9%)
TR: 19,760, 16con
The hitpoint allocations are completely imbalanced.
Well, lets try to be accurate here, they aren't even imba they were simply forgotten.
Rogues in D&D roll a d6+con for hps. Fighters (GF) roll d10+con, Barbarians (GWF) roll d12+con.
Rogues rarely if ever have a positive constitution bonus. Fighters and Barbs almost always do, and in spades.
So the hp's I should have, as a fighter, should be roughly double that of a rogue.
But if we negate my 9% bonus from feats (drops to 23,750hp) I have a 15% hp advantage over rogues.
I should have a 100% hp advantage, yet I have a 15% advantage.
You can nerfbat until the cows come home but until hitpoints are fixed the problems aren't going anywhere.
And if you nerf TR damage output you're going to effectively force them into a pvp-only role.
Please, don't do that. They are a necessary tool for dungeoning; Frozen Heart immediately springs to mind.
Fix hitpoints and you fix the game.
After that, all that's left is minor balancing.
so before you try to shoot 9001 holes in this understand what i'm driving at.
Rogues aren't broken. The class is well conceived and the powers are stellar.
That said, as a guardian main and cleric alt, pvp sucks. It is not fun.
I'm so fed up I've been boycotting inviting them into my guild; that's a problem.
My rogue friend helped me run tests.
We are not t4 geared but we are even and over9000 geared.
With numbers, not conjecture.
Drider kill-time:
1:30 GF
0:23 TR (averaged)
GF (tank spec):
* ~650/cleave, 1100 on crit
*~1000/aggravating strike, 2250 on crit(slower attack speed)
TR (crit spec):
* "2-4k non crit, 4-15k crit, no other powers in use"/duelist flurry
* "duelists fury is more like 12 hits after the main 2"
* wide range of damage, high chance of crit, bleed damage bonus
* very long animation, can be dodged
So what we see here is about what I expected before I ran the numbers.
TR does, on a good day, 5x my dps as a GF. On a bad day (a very bad day) 3x my dps.
That is good. They are supposed to. That is their role in the game and nerfing dps will break the class without fixing the problem.
The problem is hitpoints.
Base hitpoints (gearless):
GF: 25,890hp, 22con + 3/3 toughness feat (+9%)
TR: 19,760, 16con
The hitpoint allocations are completely imbalanced.
Well, lets try to be accurate here, they aren't even imba they were simply forgotten.
Rogues in D&D roll a d6+con for hps. Fighters (GF) roll d10+con, Barbarians (GWF) roll d12+con.
Rogues rarely if ever have a positive constitution bonus. Fighters and Barbs almost always do, and in spades.
So the hp's I should have, as a fighter, should be roughly double that of a rogue.
But if we negate my 9% bonus from feats (drops to 23,750hp) I have a 15% hp advantage over rogues.
I should have a 100% hp advantage, yet I have a 15% advantage.
You can nerfbat until the cows come home but until hitpoints are fixed the problems aren't going anywhere.
And if you nerf TR damage output you're going to effectively force them into a pvp-only role.
Please, don't do that. They are a necessary tool for dungeoning; Frozen Heart immediately springs to mind.
Fix hitpoints and you fix the game.
After that, all that's left is minor balancing.
Post edited by thesnowleopard on
0
Comments
A big problem is new players lack an understanding of class roles and how to play the class they rolled with,
for example: TR's trying to 1v1 a fullhp GWF. Clever, yes, but that's a fight that should take a very long time.
(if the rogue is very good and manages to win),
but clerics should/would get a hitpoint boost as well because they roll d8 for hps,
which would alleviate at least some of the stress players who choose that class have to deal with.
So don't nerf TR's dmg? Give GF's base 40k hp? Lol, you might want pool your AD together and purchase a bunch of zen for enchanted keys. Perhaps if you open up enough nightmare lockboxes you might get a clue.
GF's are already pretty impossible to kill in PvP unless going after them as a group, and then to boost their health while they tenes up giving them insane damage surely isn't going to be a good change.
Ah yes and while we are at giving D&D stuff how about give clerics and wizards those level 9 spells instead of current crappy ones
30kish Health for a GF not even gemming for health sounds perfectly awesome to me. A very good GF friend of mine dominates in PvP, with mediocre gear(not using the cheese build), and out dps's a large majority of players we've grouped with in dungeons, minus of course a well played CW/TR.
I never see him complain about anything......ever....
Giving more health, to bad players, is still going to make them bad players. I dont see this as a balance issue at all. This seems to me that you need a little help with PvP and PvE, and definately some advice on how to properly rune your characters.
Lots of good guides on the forums, I'd check there mate, gl to ya!
lol, clerics in this game don't even get bonuses against undead
I have zero problems with getting 1 kill and 50 assists in a match at all.
Well...then why are you complaining about PvP? Stack health runes and shush.
You dont get to complain that PvP is such HAMSTER if you are willingly using a build that "you" apparently arent having any fun using,or having success with, when there are plenty of good guides on differant builds, that offer both survivability and insane damage. A skilled, well built, specc'd GF is one of the hardest class's to beat in the game. I would more prefer fighting an equally sized GWF then a GF any day. As I believe most PvP'rs would agree
We need to fix hps, figure out how it all balances out after that, and maybe even give TR's better evasion.
You want to weaken whatever you can't kill. I want to fix a problem and make everyone stronger.
The only roadblock I foresee is GWF being monstrosities but isn't that the entire point of playing Barbarian?
So... you advise not-to nerf rogues surviability but increase everybodys else?
GF: 31k
TR: 21k
That's how it should be.
Rogues should be hard as HAMSTER to kill, but my hitpoints aren't balanced.
I shouldn't be this easy to kill as a full tank, once guard breaks I'm down in a round.
I like to think, and I've been thinking about balance after hitpoint adjustment.
TR is solid.
CW is solid.
DC is solid.
GF-tank is solid.
The damage outputs are already solid and balanced for all the classes and should be left alone.
Where we run into problems is DPS-spec'd GF and pretty much every GWF. With the increased hitpoints these particular characters will be overpowering.
To increase survivability against these builds I think these minor balances would do the trick
* reduce hp bonus for GF/GWF gear that grants power/crit
* slight increase on cooldown timers
* slight buff for all shift-talents
CW might end up a bit underpowered after all this since they wont gain any hps and i think that could be avoided with a slight decrease on control power cooldown timers and a slight buff to their [tab] shield, for increased survivability.
What I'm driving at here is embracing the uniqueness of each character build so players can be strong at what they want to be talented in, but lose benefits to neglected attributes.
Want to play a ranged class to disable your opponenent? Control wizard.
A stealth class that quickly drops weakened opponenets and escapes when outmatched? Trickster rogue.
A damage-sponge tank that never seems to die? Guardian fighter.
A balanced fighter? Guardian fighter has that too.
A brawling warrior that's hard to finish? Great Weapons Fighter is the class for you.
And no game is complete without a righteous healer; Devoted Cleric.
This is how the game is already developed. That's how and why the classes are built the way they are.
Nerfing rogue damage is just going to lead to a series of nerfs for all classes because the classes (feats and powers) are already balanced.
The devs at Perfect World did just that for character talents.
Hitpoints simply aren't appropriately adjusted, and the ability to dodge attacks is at a minimum;
WHICH MEANS survivability is too low. For today, versus the Rogue. After the adjustment (either nerf or hp-boost), versus the Barbarian and Fighters soon after.
If you choose the path of balancing health you can continue to spread the branches and increase character individuality as the game grows.
This is what the devs want to do. That's what the upcoming Paragon paths are for.
But if there is still a fundamental problem that hasn't been remedied...
If you choose the path of cutting, trimming, and limiting class-talents...
Well, I think I've said more than enough for today.
Thats actually pretty funny considering the actual trailer of Neverwinter shows a cleric whose power shows that its greatly effective against undead.
edit: nevermind i'm just having my daily autism attack carry on.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
The trailer was to create hype so people can open their wallets for untested product which soon they realized it's not worth it .
I dont know much about GF since i dont have any.
But please note GWF offensive sets (Avatar if War and GG set) have NONE HP already!
(if you dont count 2 set bonus of GG 1.800 HP ofc, but its 4th set isnt offensive making it rather balanced set then offensive)
This is exactly why was GWF nerfed so hard last patch - fight straight 1v1 and GWF can and will trample you to the ground.
Use your skills in right time - GWF got no chance. (many people just never learned its fight most similar to PvE - dodgde his encounters, keep range when enraged - contrary to other classes GWF has no way how to stop you from damaging you, cant dodge or block)
Yes rogues have amazing damage and low hp. Yes fighters have high hp and high con bonus for even more. But the rogue also has evasion to take half damage, even zero damage from AE. They have high dex to add a huge boost to their AC. They may go down fast, but you have to hit them first.
In Neverwinter, dodge and deflect are worthless to a TR. If you can stack them enough to where you'll see a difference your damage will be so terrible it's not going to help you in the end.
In D&D the true glass cannon is a mage, not a rogue. Disappointing because I didn't realize when I started the game, but it is what it is.
rogues still have evasion and they still have immunity, just browse the myriad of posts related to that very topic (there are many).
I had a TR prone in midair and he was still immune to damage, fancy that.
The problem is health. I just geared off my green ring for a more appropriate epic.
I now have sub-30k hp. Which means I have ~8000 more hitpoints than an equally geared rogue.
8000.
Rogues at my level can roll out 18k crits, i'm lucky to get a 3k crit and I crit WAY less.
The problem isn't damage, it's hitpoints. Damage imbalance is a secondary problem.
If you nerf TR damage the class falls apart because they are a DPS class with no defense.
What are they going to do in dungeons with facile DPS? Nothing.
If you adjust hitpoints this 'issue' will no longer be a broken issue, just an imbalance issue.
And FTR most of that imbalance would be caused by overpowered enchants, not the core character system.
No hp on power gear? Good, they're already on the same page.
And yes GWF had to take some sort of step back but the class is still great.
I was in GG a few days ago looking to recruit. Out of the first 20 players to show up, 11 of them were TR.
If that isn't imbalanced idk what is.