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Rant about Neverwinter and its lack of MMO
digibyte
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
This is a copy of the rant which I unfolded on the facebook page, It explains the issue and decided to share it here
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I want to wait till the new expansion comes out but I want to ask about a fundamental flaw I've seen in your game, that's becoming irritating at levels 30+
when you start out, the area's confined, well done for new players and directs them, that's great. but as a player starts exploring more of the world... well lack of, is the issue
the game comes across strong in its combat and quests, best quests in an mmo I've ever seen, its not simple, go here kill that. which is a killer for any game, the grind is the worst part.
but for Neverwinter, the worst part is the confined maps, the dungeon like worlds. when you do a dungeon that's fine. but when the 'overworld' has you collect a quest, walk 5 meters down a hallway, collect 6 flower and place them in a pedestal. there is something really wrong with this game.
what makes an MMO, is the free world exploring, you have a great dungeon system, but frankly the mobs are to close together, you cant simply run past an area, you have to fight teeth and knuckles just to get somewhere. and i hate to say it, but that's where LOTRO beats you at.
games don't need to be combat, combat, combat. give the player a break, let them see the open world, the peaceful side and beauty of it. sometimes its nice to ride a horse down a long road that takes 15 mins to get to a dungeon. instead we are confined to small area's where 5 hordes of enemies are a sneeze away from the player. there is no break.
why not get some dev guys to play LOTRO, and see what they did right, and what they did wrong. Right now as it stands, you have the combat great, the spells and confined spell lists, perfect. you don't need 50 spells and abilities to make it fun, so thank you for getting that right. but everything is to squashed together.
Maybe your game engine can't handle large scale maps at the moment, but maybe developing a system like Skyrim where the maps are cells and the cities and dungeons are large instances.
Also, because of the lack of space between everything, it makes it incredibly easy to level. no spacing between combat and quest to objectives means you can have a high turn over rate.
take in for example myself, i've been playing for about 5 days, on and off sometimes staying up to 2am questing. now a good well paced mmo should have me at about level 5-12 after only 5 days, instead im at level 36 and im rolling through the quests faster then ever
as this game gets more popular, more people are going to be grinding away like myself, I'm not a hardcore dedicated player, but i love to work hard on a game when i play it. The last thing you want is all your player base at level 60 with only instances to play.
Once a player hits the level cap and gets the best gear, there is no point in playing anymore. even if you have some amazing quest system, its all about grinding vs reward. and distributing your player base over all the levels.
instead we are all power leveling and not getting any breaks in combat. and on top of that, no map/free world exploring
- Sorry for the rant, but i wanted to be clear on that. Please look at what makes other games good, and see what your game is missing.
and if its not possible with your current engine, then invest in some developers who can.
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I want to wait till the new expansion comes out but I want to ask about a fundamental flaw I've seen in your game, that's becoming irritating at levels 30+
when you start out, the area's confined, well done for new players and directs them, that's great. but as a player starts exploring more of the world... well lack of, is the issue
the game comes across strong in its combat and quests, best quests in an mmo I've ever seen, its not simple, go here kill that. which is a killer for any game, the grind is the worst part.
but for Neverwinter, the worst part is the confined maps, the dungeon like worlds. when you do a dungeon that's fine. but when the 'overworld' has you collect a quest, walk 5 meters down a hallway, collect 6 flower and place them in a pedestal. there is something really wrong with this game.
what makes an MMO, is the free world exploring, you have a great dungeon system, but frankly the mobs are to close together, you cant simply run past an area, you have to fight teeth and knuckles just to get somewhere. and i hate to say it, but that's where LOTRO beats you at.
games don't need to be combat, combat, combat. give the player a break, let them see the open world, the peaceful side and beauty of it. sometimes its nice to ride a horse down a long road that takes 15 mins to get to a dungeon. instead we are confined to small area's where 5 hordes of enemies are a sneeze away from the player. there is no break.
why not get some dev guys to play LOTRO, and see what they did right, and what they did wrong. Right now as it stands, you have the combat great, the spells and confined spell lists, perfect. you don't need 50 spells and abilities to make it fun, so thank you for getting that right. but everything is to squashed together.
Maybe your game engine can't handle large scale maps at the moment, but maybe developing a system like Skyrim where the maps are cells and the cities and dungeons are large instances.
Also, because of the lack of space between everything, it makes it incredibly easy to level. no spacing between combat and quest to objectives means you can have a high turn over rate.
take in for example myself, i've been playing for about 5 days, on and off sometimes staying up to 2am questing. now a good well paced mmo should have me at about level 5-12 after only 5 days, instead im at level 36 and im rolling through the quests faster then ever
as this game gets more popular, more people are going to be grinding away like myself, I'm not a hardcore dedicated player, but i love to work hard on a game when i play it. The last thing you want is all your player base at level 60 with only instances to play.
Once a player hits the level cap and gets the best gear, there is no point in playing anymore. even if you have some amazing quest system, its all about grinding vs reward. and distributing your player base over all the levels.
instead we are all power leveling and not getting any breaks in combat. and on top of that, no map/free world exploring
- Sorry for the rant, but i wanted to be clear on that. Please look at what makes other games good, and see what your game is missing.
and if its not possible with your current engine, then invest in some developers who can.
Post edited by digibyte on
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Comments
MOUNTS;
Horses and mounts, mounts are a very cool thing, but should be a luxury for higher tier players, now I know you can argue that the 50% -> 110% thing is what makes it different, but that's not the case. getting your first horse should be a task in itself, something that you've earned and made it to that point, those long countless hours walking from place to place, its a pay off.
that's the idea, but with the previous issue of having a confined and small maps, having a horse doesn't do much, its a long term form of transport, and as such should be used traveling from major city to city but the mounts never get to see their shining glory that way.
TRAPS;
These things are the most useless traps ever, I never played DnD on paper but I know they had the whole 'roll' system, so why can't rogues and other 'intelligent' characters roll a stat to detect traps?
rogues should have something that gives a bonus for detecting them, and until they are detected, they should be completely invisible to everyone.
and to make them a threat, they should take a % of health away, somewhere between 10-20% health (maybe 18%) which makes them a threat no-matter what the level, the reason for the high damage is because traps are few and far between, once a party is aware of traps in a room they would be on their guard.
also traps should be rolled once per instance, a team member either detects them or not. rogues can re-roll every few seconds which makes them usefull in that regard
CHESTS;
would be nice if all chests had a unique ID and was only able to be looted once by that character.
makes getting every chest all the more valuable. with that, why cant multiple ppl open a chest at the same time? only have the lid open for the client player.
(Currently its bugged if your inventory is full, you wont be able to re-open the chest to get the last of it)
CUT SCENES;
This ones more of a BUG, but every time someone in the party accesses a tablet with questions, talks to an NPC or activates a boss, everyone in the party see's it, Example is the tablet on the ground in the clock tower, you could be 3 rooms away and it still gives it. we don't want to see that.
its ok for boss fights as everyone is there. but no need for little things like talking to a tablet on the ground.
PARTY MANAGEMENT;
The worst thing isn't being able to finally join a team to do a dungeon/skirmish together. its finding where the dungeon is, and getting there in time if the team is impatient.
a good game should be a balance of convenience VS struggle. and getting to the dungeon shouldn't be the task, it stops the whole team until everyone gets there. so what if team members at a campfire or portable alter could simply teleport to the party leader when they are in the waiting zones?
Another issue is party members being able to pull the team into their missions. Ideally what should happen is the party leader manages it, the party member they are assisting could 'offer' or share the quests with the group and the leader either accepts or declines it. Quests should be done as a whole, so each member can follow and track its progress but only the person who owns it can collect the final reward and hand it in.
CHAT:
its a very neglected part of the game, It could be improved if every second chat message was slightly darker or lighter, and names were a different color from the chat message (this includes ranks etc)
also some form of button to click on, instead of /z /p /s which are not only tedious but no way to know it by default, so what if chat had tabs instead? eg, local, Combat log, Party, etc and using a shortcut would alternate between them?
GUI/Interaction;
I dont know who was thinking it, but F should not be a global interactive system. didnt they realise that trying to interact with a vendor is difficult enough without having 10 people in the way?
the selection has an override that kicks in after a few seconds, but that hot fix backfies when you want to interact or trade with the person in front of the vendor.
would be better if interacting with npc/devices was left to F and selecting players relied on Alt+Mouse click? Eg, clicking on a group of people will list their names and you can select who you want from there.
Also Gui Panels Need a PIN icon next to close, so you can pin them in place so they don't reset and more importantly, have it open as you run around the world, I like to see my inventory sometimes as I run around.
Zooming in, why can't we zoom into our characters face and admire our scars or tats?
Middle click to free cam look, click and drag to rotate camera away from character.
Quest Dialog Audio;
other then my only concern being file size, there seems to be issues that if you move to far away, the dialog stops (possibly due to the npc unloading) this is a nuisance when going out for a quest.
also, interacting with other NPC dialogs interrupts previous ones, so you can't just power house 3 quests at once, you have to wait. Ideally if you have dialog enabled, the messages would stack and play one after another until each one is said. At the moment, you can easily miss dialog by talking to a vendor, accepting another quest or just walking to far away.
I love this feature and it reminds me of recorded messages in a way, reliving the past in your head, similar to bioshock or amnesia-DD, I hate seeing this nice feature ruined by some quirks
SPAM/FARMING BOTS;
its probably needed to be addressed, sooner then later.
im sure many of you have seen characters with websites in their name (www.*******.com)
they are sites that endorse bot farming where they abuse a part of the game and sell that exploit/grind to players for hard cash, this takes money away from the developers. and not only that but ruins a part of the game.
>A few ways to address this, are anyone with websites for names should be assessed ad future names created should not have website suffixes like .com .org etc, even . can be denied on character creation,
>Any characters with excessive gold should be assessed, Anyone that has over 1000G should be monitored for excessive of trading to certain persons
>Anyone that earns over a certain amount of gold could have it converted into a Platinum coin, which isn't tradable but redeemable through purchases, meaning that you cant trade platinum but forced to save it and spend if as you need it.
- if you are helping a person out, the way around that would be buying the item yourself and trading it that way.
On a final note about farming bots or idle bots, if you can change it so that emotes, jumping do not break AFK any simple macro can enter in a dance command, and jump every few mins to make sure its not afk.
also checking for repetitive text, if a person says the same thing over and over or repeats lines they have said, they should be warned and muted for a duration. if they repeat this and get multiple warnings then they should be flagged to a moderator showing the kinds of messages they are posting, and dealt with appropriately (account/character locked and undeletable)
Dungeon like worlds in Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter?
Preposterous.
Even a single player game like Dungeon Siege has more open and spread out then this.
and I was not referring to the dungeons (instances) but the main worlds you travel too.
I agree, I do like it, particularly in the graveyard map. However there is no break, no balance.
look at most other RPG games, hordes of units are spread out, or the distance between a camp and the enemy tower has some distance. in NW, you turn the corner, or go up a hill and there is your objective.
in an MMO, that spacing helps slow down the pace of the game. that and its too generous with handing out levels and gear, that combined with monster groups that are only a few feet away, it makes a cluster of quests and monsters only a arms reach away at all times
not once, would a person ever need to buy stock gear from a vendor.
Torchlight II for example had scalable items from the store and the loot was gold fodder with the exception of boss items.
im not saying it needs to be nerfed completely, but there is a place for everything. On the bonus side, manually traveling from major location, to location, can offer side quests, smaller lesser dungeons and things that give life along the way like smaller villages etc.
Update: Added Chests, Cut scenes and Traps
Hopefully I got my point across. It really comes down to personal preferences, I loved Dragon Age for the same reason, but other people disliked it because of it.
Regarding mounts: Getting mounts should be as easy and fast as possible, for me. For the reasons I stated above. It is a good milestone in a player's progression, nothing more. Especially in Neverwinter where they have limited mechanical importance in-game.
Traps: Rogue can in fact see traps highlighted, and disarm them when out of combat. Everyone can spot traps if you notice the graphics, it takes a little experience but once you start noticing them can avoid them easily.
Chests: It follows the same logic of enemies re-populating the areas after you kill them. Try to think of chests as someone's storage spots for valuables, every once in a while they will re-fill it, and you can go get them (or something like that). It really isn't very meaningful in game.
Cut-scenes: it is definitely not a bug, I think the way this works is faster and more convenient for everyone, compared to each member seeing the cutscene separately, that would be more chaotic and would take more time. What they should do is make all cut-scenes skippable (only a few of them are, bosses aren't for example). No reason to see the same thing every time.
Party management: There are definitely issues here, like staying in a party after you leave the instance (why really?) and having to leave it manually. But I don't get what you're saying. Aren't you queueing up for dungeons anyway? (and if you're not, you should, it helps the queue system immensely). You should never run to a dungeon entrance unless your level is below/above the dungeon requirements, and you cannot queue for it. Even if you have a 5-man team ready, you can queue for it. As for your other suggestions, there are very serious risks of abusing these options (i.e. what can happen now is the team leader kicking all other members after boss fight and take the loot himself), so before any such convenience options are introduced, they should be tested to be abuse-proof (i.e. they could implant a vote system for kicking party members).
Chat: It could definitely use a lot of improvements, however you can add custom tabs with selected content, there is some customization available atm. I don't like anything that takes up extra screen space, including additional buttons etc; but more options are always welcome. There are a lot of conveniences still missing on the interface side (i.e. mail management is extremely poor, no mass selection etc), and one of the main problems of the game is that it doesn't inform you of the available options in the first place i.e. I still haven't found if there is a /command list, or an emote list available in-game.
Bots: Unfortunately the game support seems to be understaffed atm, including in-game GMs, and other stuff. Hopefully they will continue improving in this area.
To sum it up, I love the game setup exactly because of its tight setup and fast action pace, so I guess there are always two sides on the same coin. If it makes it better for you, you'll see that higher level areas are significantly more spread out, and I certainly loved their scenery design.
to travel to a place, its literally a click of a button and you warp there, no RPG elements, no walking and discovering where it is first, no use of portal scrolls or anything RPG in the likes.
the instanced area's are fine how they are, but they do need to spread the layout of the maps too some degree. You cant even run down a path and avoid anyone to get something or complete an of the side quest, specially when your downing 6 health potions just to get through an area while the mob chases you relentlessly (which is the worst experience ever)
to the main issue tho, instanced area's are great, i love them, but the padding between area to area, is none, there's no buff and the scale feels ridiculous, the world of runescape for example, is very small to the player.
I would like to see some spread out in monsters and features of the map like Dungeon Seige was, great game, or any other RPG game like that. The maps don't have to be as confined as they are now.
Dont get me wrong, I'm just saying there needs to be some extra padding between things, even quests are somewhat of a joke. enemy camps being right next door to allies, and quests being a stones throw away. it takes away the grand scale of things, the quests move to fast and over all, the game does nothing but forces you to be level capped before you get your fill.
PvP isn't some golden answer to fixing all problems, PvP should be viable for all levels, for people like myself who love a good RPG and grind, PvP doesn't interest us. if i want PvP I play blacklight.
As for the mounts, they are kind of useless, if you follow the quests you really dont have a chance to use them, I've never used mine.
You missed what i was talking about, if someone activates a pedestal with dialog, or some item with text, no matter where you are, or if you are in combat, you get the dialog too. this shouldn't be, who ever is sorting it out, should sort it out without interrupting everyone else. as for boss 'cutscenes' if you wish to call them that, is only a camera pan, nothing much worth watching. Solution, if your are not there when the team goes near the boss, you miss out. But 9/10 times your group is already together, so they can all watch it together, so in the end whats the harm?
the issue i was onto is more aimed at NPC Dialog popping up, or some lame puzzle half a mile away and you have to close it. it shouldn't pop up in the first place.
(wow, that sounds just like some Dungeon Board game... Amazing /sarcasm)
it doesn't take a 'trained' eye to notice a trap out of place as it currently stands, the human eye is designed to spot differences and unless your playing with a blurred screen, they are easy to spot and they do hardly any damage.
"avoid them easily" you say, that is the problem.
EDIT: Added Gui/Interaction, Quest Dialog Audio
While in principle, I agree that there is a lack of things to do when you aren't in a dungeon or questing, this could be addressed with other thing that are noticeably easier to add in that converting the game to an open world. The addition of small time sinks like player and guild housing possibly in the form of mini quests for player housing and guild exclusive 10+ raids for guild housing would add to the game a great deal.
Of course this would also give PW the opportunity to sell house upgrades for zen if someone doesn't want to spend 40 hours doing the mini quests to tile their roof instead of have it made of straw.
Additionally, exploration is still possible in NW. We had a guild hide and seek competition recently, which many of us found exceptionally entertaining. You might think the maps are small and linear, but trust me, there's a lot of nooks and crannies to explore that aren't glitches in the map design.
Easy to say, but replacing the entire engine of the game would be a wipe, which is utterly impossible right now due to the sheer amount of money that would be lost in refunds.
Mounts aren't really a big thing in Neverwinter. More of a vanity item. The main use that I can see for mounts is to skip trash in an instance, otherwise you'll spend an hour slowly killing trash to get to a dungeon entrance pre L60. They are also useful in PvP(Must have in Gauntlgrym, highly recommended in domination).
I'm not the kind of person who enjoys slowly walking the length of a map like Chasms. They may not be vital, but right now, they are a quality of life item. Changing the mount system in any way other than by adjusting the size of new maps would be a very bad idea imo.
Traps suck. Maybe it'll change. Maybe not. 10% to 20% health loss isn't really a big deal either.
If traps became a really big threat(like 75% health loss) I imagine the developers would have to be exceptionally careful about where they put them in a dungeon or have them only fire once or the amount of "OMG, Party wiped because we missed a trap!" or "Boss knocked me into a trap and I died!" QQing would be unbearable(and frustrating in game).
Isn't that only possible if you change instances? I certainly can't reloot a chest multiple times in the same instance in a short period of time. I believe Cryptic set a limit of profession node farming before you get junk items already.
Aside from dungeon delve chests, most chests aren't that valuable anyway.
A good group will lead the people who are unfamiliar with the map to the entrance. I do thjink that you should be able to set a party waypoint on the map, perhaps with different coloured sparkles leading to it to help lead the group through an area(be it a dungeon or a zone). Some games do this already by allowing you to use a call which puts a map marker where the player making the call is. This would be very useful in a dungeon for calling out nodes and chests.
Genuinely don't see the problem. If you do the quest, you should get a reward for your time.
Already implemented. You can create custom channels. Mentioning the chat shortcuts in the tutorial would be a nice addition.
You seem to have the idea that if a game engine needs a new feature they need to move to an entirely new engine?
from what we've seen, its most likely they have their own in-house game engine, and creating some sort of cell based map structure isn't to far out of their reach, its a big leap in production work, but its one they need to do sooner or later
at the end of the day, most of the issues come down to 2 things;
A) too fast and easy to level up and getting 'epic' gear to easily (games just to short and fast, hitting end game to easy)
(I could really make another long list of problems and quirks explaining in more fine detail with examples, but I don't have the interest unless its a private conversation with a dev)
its a lot of small things, but those small things hinder the game
as for the chests, you already have monsters for repeatable treasure hunting, so why chests too? have them repeatable in dungeons is fine, having it unique in the overworld would be better, like a once off box prize which can have ppl hunt for them.
leveling up is quick I agree, but getting epic gear isn't without the auction house and then trying to slot up your gear is insanely difficult unless real cash is spent or you found a way to exploit the game... this means that its hard to get balanced PvP games when joining as some will be ultra geared and others way under geared with no real hope of improving any anytime soon... also, without the ultra geared up gear you likely aren't going to be finishing dungeons to get a chance at good drops
the game already goes to balancing your level which is a huge factor, and we know gear varies if not more then a characters stats. so what about giving level stock gear? or seperate PVP armour/weapons that level according to the match? and have each weapon have certain pro's and cons and its balanced that way. therefore dividing PvE balancing to PvP?
it wont hurt to have a combat gear slot that players can work on and upgrade?
PvP armour and weapons wouldn't have to be as large and diverse as the PvE set, but focus more on modular gems and slots
at its core, PvP will always be unbalanced as long as people have decked out gear and others have don't. Shooter mmo's like PlanetSide2 Address PvP in a more non-competitive game. but that's the catch isn't it?
Solution would be to have a separate set of gear for PvP, more limited, simple but specialized. Or, how about everyone has stock gear and you pick some ability or specialization before hand to give you a pro/con system
its probably best that PvP doesn't have PvE gear, its that simple. many people wont like it, but its the fairest choice.
why should one guy be the best simple because he was lucky to get an Epic Hammer of the gods (legendary) and steve didn't?
My approach to PvP would cut back on the differences, and focus on the class itself, players rely on their skills and have fun (instead of getting smashed)
Another topic I want to raise, is Healers.
I found out today, that you guys have it rough. it seems the only way you can heal someone is by aiming at them and shooting your beams of healing, would be a shame if a companion was in the way, or another team mate, or everyone else.
I've never seen a multiplayer healer until now that can't manually heal X party member with a simple click on their party face
it comes back to the Mouse mode and how the screen goes to dark, sure its good for messing with the UI, but its fiddly when typing, then realizing you want to link a item in your inventory, but OH NO, you can't Hitting i only types it, and there is no button at the top for that. who ever designed that row of buttons at the top, is a complete idiot.
why not throw the whole Zen, Astral D all under one button, have an auction house button Actually go to the auction house (make it only work(buy) when your in town or at a camp fire) and just in general, start conforming the Gui and fix the mouse/chatbox/inventory issue
I love this game, its great, addicting and fun. and unless someone stands up and says "hey, this is not right" it coudl be years before its changed.
When it comes down to it, most of the heals aren't the old 5% to full health, only a Health stone can do that. A healer's real utility lies in their area buffs. Massive extra damage resistance, DOT heal in divinity mode, minor healing for party members attacking a debuffed mob, etc.
The targeted heals like Soothing light and Healing word are very, very situational, especially at L60. A DC is always going to be either throwing out damaging abilities or if the battle is quieter, maybe the odd targeted heal, all to build divinity for what most people consider it's class specials, Astral Shield and Forgemaster's Flame and build Action points for it's Dailies, typically Divine Armor or Hammer of Fate.
So long as the party fights smart, targeted heals shouldn't be needed. If you're low on health and AS or DA aren't up, you should be popping potions, not waiting for the Cleric to top you up 10-15% HP. It's a different approach to the classic RPG Healbot.
TL;DR
This is a game of story of heroes that will never quit you.
Given the small size of the game 'world', I think it's quite obvious that the cramped, corridor-like levels with their strategically placed mobs are there to encourage players to spend money on expensive mounts. A more open world design would make it too easy for players to avoid the inconvenience of being continually knocked off their horses when trying to avoid combat, and this would reduce premium sales. In the same way, your starter companions begin to lose their effectiveness at the point at which you have become dependent on their use and at which you will have committed enough time in the game that you are more likely to be inclined to upgrade.
If some aspect of the game seems poorly designed, you often need to shift your perspective from that of the consumer to that of the creator. The business model dictates the design. You make some comparisons with LoTRO, but that is a game that was originally designed around a subscription payment model. Big open worlds, slow travel, deep crafting and challenging content etc all make sense when the intent is to keep players paying their subs from month to month. I would suspect that Cryptic's research found that players who demand instant gratification (in the form of very fast leveling, fountains of shinies spurting out of corpses, action combat and the thrill of the lockbox lottery etc) are more likely to make spur-of-the-moment cash purchases. The game was built to exploit this. Where aspects of the game appear broken or meaningless, the likelihood is that such features do not contribute sufficiently to the bottom line and therefore are of low priority.
http://www.thewitcher.com/
all you need soon. will make Skyrm look like childs play stuff..
But is it an mmo?
back on topic, Neverwinter is open for improvement, I hope it takes in what it has, what holes its already fallen into and try and find balance to be a long term game, after all, an mmo should have you hooked for years, not a month.
level cap in a month? less?
doesn't sound right.
There is nothing massive about neverwinter combat/areas/skills/etc
The combat is a copy of PWE's other game Raiderz nothing new here.
Skills to limited and to few, no customization.
The areas to bland and to small.
The Gear Very limited with a serious lack of impressive design, considering the game graphics its a let down.
Yes, Cryptic uses their own in house engine. Neverwinter is built on the same engine as Cryptics other two games.
The lack of open spaces, seems to be a design choice over engine limitations. One only need to visit Champions online, see the size and scope of the games central city to verify this.
Had they made a map of similar size and complexity as Millenium City, But of a detailed section of the Sword Coast. That would be the stop gap everyone is looking for. Instead of clicking on a map as you open the gate. You simply translate to the sword coast map. With each of the adventure areas simply a gated cell on that map.
If nothing else it would give the illusion of a much larger open world. They could even keep the fast travel option, provided it is a place you have already visited once.