test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Looking for Feedback
lunaeclipse173
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Hi, I have started writing a guide. I know there is a lot of class guides listed but most are end game guides, so I decided to write a guide as I levelled a Control Wizard, with information I thought might be useful for new players to the class.
I am by no means claiming to be a guru on the class, in fact a lot of information for the guide has come from posts and other peoples builds, with my own levelling experiences included for reference.
I would really appreciate it if you guys could have a look at the guide, its in PDF format, and so far includes general information and zone information for levels 1-20. I would really love some feedback in regards to this project.
The PDF file can be found here.
Thanks for your time.
LunaEclipse
I am by no means claiming to be a guru on the class, in fact a lot of information for the guide has come from posts and other peoples builds, with my own levelling experiences included for reference.
I would really appreciate it if you guys could have a look at the guide, its in PDF format, and so far includes general information and zone information for levels 1-20. I would really love some feedback in regards to this project.
The PDF file can be found here.
Thanks for your time.
LunaEclipse
Post edited by lunaeclipse173 on
0
Comments
decent beginner guide... here is some suggestions
about race, u should include both races, tiefling and human, as option for start building good CW... for CC wizard build i see humans as better choice... for DPS wizard, however, tiefling is a way to go...
also, i would never spend astrals on equipment on such low lvl, cuz game is very easy as it is... especially after get free companion (cleric preferable) on lvl 16, or even earlier if u can spend 2 golds... and u will be full of green gear from drops between lvl 10-20 anyway...
btw, correct this: "After doing the couple of quests in Protector’s Enclave, you should be level 10".. u mean "blacklake district"... right?
keep good work and have fun
I appreciate the idea of including humans as well, my main issue is I am writing the guide as I go, and eventually the build will be more of an AOE dps build then a crowd control build, but I am sure I can put some general information in the guide about humans, where to take the extra 3 feat points, what starting stats would be, etc...
As for spending Astral Diamonds early at level 12, yes I realise it is not necessary, and I certainly appreciate what you are saying. I have levelled several characters to 60, and not used a single blue item on any of those characters. On each character I have always gone with just green items, and had no problems. At level 12 my outlay for the Auction House, was only like 80 Astral Diamonds, and at level 16 it was like 120 Astral Diamonds, and my opinion is the increased levelling speed from having gear suited to what you need certainly outweighs the loss of 200 Astral Diamonds.
There is a couple of crowd control powers taken, repel and entangling, but that is because at early levels there is not much choice in the way of encounters. The build I am working towards is similar to copticone "((T2)) Thaumaturge SPEC/POWERS/ROLE" with some input from sent8's "CW Icy Aoe build for Leveling".
Thank you for your ideas, they are much appreciated.
(Nearly) all CC spells are those spells, which do a huge amount of damage.
I understand what you are talking about DPS spells being Crowd Control. I have Conduit of Ice in my spell mastery slot which applies chill to the targets on damage, Ray of Frost is my right mouse button at will which again applies chill, when I get high enough I am taking Icy Terrain, which again is another Freeze, Steal time which stops the targets from doing anything, my main daily is Arcane Singularity which groups up all the trash together so you can AOE them, and even Shield which is another spell I am taking but haven't yet is a crowd control spell because you can pulse it to push back all enemies close to you.
But I am taking these spells not for their Crowd Control nature, but instead for the damage they do, or in Shield's case the damage it mitigates, the crowd control aspect of it is just a bonus. That's why I said I was DPS.
Theres only 1 feat that will make a wizard noticably better at CC, from my experience anyway.
As for leveling guide, i wouldnt try and make any new wizard select a certain set of feats. as there are many viable variations to choose from, it would be better if you noted which ones that are not worth taking rather than just showing one path. Ones who fully a build strictly will never know if another build is actually more suited to them (powers/skills etc).
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Neverwinter to a new player can be overwhelming, the size of the Powers tree is daunting when you first look at it, then you have feats, and heroic feats, and hopefully soon additional paragon paths.
After playing for a few months and having several level 60's, its not as bad as it seemed, but when I first started I was so overwhelmed I almost quit playing, putting the game in the "too hard basket". My idea was to take some of that away from new players, and while a guide like the one I was writing only shows one play style, it is enough to get them to 60, and let them experience the game, and eventually understand the complex nature of the game and allow them to come up with a build and play style that best suits them.
As I don't have a level 60 Control Wizard yet, I was looking for some feedback on the build, there is a few minor changes from copticone build.
For feats I have 4 points in "Fight On" instead of 3, 0 points in Arcane Mastery (this build is primarily cold based, so I thought this is unnecessary, but I may have misunderstood the tool-tip) instead of 3, 5 points in Learned Spellcaster instead of 0, and 0 points in Focused Wizardry instead of 3.
For heroic feats I have 5 points in Critical Power (to increase AP generation) instead of 0, and 0 points in Reapers Touch (my ideal is not to be within 20 feet of the enemy unless I am doing something wrong) instead of 5 points.
My character is a Tiefling, and at level 60 without campfire buffs will have 24 Intelligence, 24 Charisma, 14 Wisdom, 12 Strength, 12 Constitution and 12 Dexterity.
Class Features: Storm Spell and Chilling Presence.
At Wills: Chilling Cloud and Ray of Frost.
Spell Mastery: Conduit of Ice.
Encounters: Icy Terrain, Steal Time, and Shield.
Daily Powers: Arcane Singularity and Ice Knife.
Powers
Feats
I would really appreciate feedback from players who have level 60 Control Wizards on the changes I made, are they viable, have I made mistakes in my understanding of how they work, things like that, positive criticism is always welcomed.
Thanks for your time.
LunaEclipse
what i mean was charisma or wisdom based... its true most ppl going on charisma to maximize dmg... however building pure CC wizard would be wisdom based (next to int of course)... amazing cooldown reduction same as daily powers... and of course oppressor feat tree (which is most ignored)... honestly i never try this build on highest lvls, but on mid lvls (around 30s) group of mobs was barely hit at all... only reason i gave up on that build is fact that highest bosses cant be controled... it would be amazing that instead of immunity bosses have reduced control time on them...
WIS is a waste of points. 4% of extra recharge speed or 4% of extra action point gain is barely noticable (minor addition to minor numbers) while 4% crit and other CHA stuff much more noticable.
2luna
Arcane mastery buffs your shield damage, so even cold based CW will have benefit from it.
As for power build, magic missle, orb of imposition and arcane presence is not needed, if you play frost wizard. Better take opressive force (if you run more, than 2 wizards, it's very usefull) and RoE for maximazing single target damage.
Magic missile, Orb of imposition and Arcane Presence were taken mostly as fillers, but maybe opressive force and ray of enfeeblement are better choices, will check them out. Thanks for the advice.
http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,13e3ih0:6u000:bu0uv:b0000&h=0
Btw, for filler spells better take storm pillar: it gives you possibility to gain AP w/o hitting anyone.
critical power is a thumbs up from me, will make you generate AP noticably faster than other wizards.
kerrovitarra suggestion is good. Mine is close to that, but i didnt take wizard's wrath. because sometimes i use conduit of ice on tab so i can generate chills (for chilling presence). however i took destructive wizardry over maleviolent surge, just to see if theres any noticable difference.
ill add http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=l8v:4yqls:8feb,13e3ih0:6u000:bu0uv:b0000&h=0
as power selection, yorus seem find. just thought i would add shard incase you use high vizier (gives extra 1-2 bonus debuff)
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I will try to stay positive in this.
Your built is lacking "experience". My advice to you would be to get to 60 first, and then elaborate again. I can assure you that if you keep a good learning curve, a lot of what is over there will change.
I am not trying by any mean to be negative. I just want to express how I think this build is not what a high level efficient party would be ideally looking for. I'm saying this as one of the top CW and DC. To have seen both sides of the coin (being with and be the CW for end game dungeon (notably Castle Never)).
With all due respect,
-Jawarisin
PS: I cannot express how much I disagree with those feats without writing an essay.
Here for the build+guide
Most of the (tiefling) wizards sticking with Dex/Cha start with Int18/Wis12/Cha18. The same tiefling wizard wanting to invest more in Wisdom would have Int18/Wis16/Cha14. You get 6 opportunities to raise your stats through 60 levels, so in the end you'll either get Int24/Wis14/Cha24 or Int24/Wis22/Cha16.
That's a 6% extra recharge speed, action point gain, control duration and control resistance. I've read earlier claims that the benefit to one power is minimal in comparison to the gains you'd get from a potential of more critical hits, and I remain fairly skeptical.
Why?
The first error I see in that reasoning is that it sticks to the perspective of 1 encounter power. A Control Wizard can have 4 Encounter Power on cooldown, which means that all four can be in cooldown and benefit from that recharge speed increase. On top of that, you have very synergetically control duration as well: so the gap between the uptime of your crowd control powers and their cooldown gets even narrower, which overall means more control, less effectiveness from the enemy, less risk for your team, and faster AP building to keep that merry-go-round going.
Another bright point of higher starting ability score with Wisdom is that that recharge speed/action point gain/control duration advantage is one that doesn't have any diminishing return applicable to it, yet. In fact, having a high Wisdom sets a higher baseline for the impact we get from the Recovery stat - I find there's a notable difference between a CW with Wis14 and 3000 Recovery, and another at Wis22 and the same 3000 Recovery.
Admittedly, you probably have spent more time at endgame than I have, but the concept of "excess CC" hasn't ever happened to me so far, which has left me no incentive to pursue "excess DPS" by sacrificing the CC I've attained. Sure, I'm not top placed in kills or DPS on the leaderboard... but I don't get why I need to outperform the Rogue and GWFighter damage-wise when my job is controlling the battlefield and making myself useful by making it easier for everyone (except to make them feel more inadequate for doing their jobs rather than being better at the one that's uniquely mine?).
I personnaly use both Thaum and Renegade, depending how I feel I'll respec.
Now let me just explain 1 of your mistakes, although I can see many.
3 points into fight on = 6% cooldown reduction as opposed to 6% extra aoe dmg.
Let's run a little test here: a skill with 100 dmg and 10 second delay aoe skill.
For a period of 100 second. you would do 1060 dmg.
now same thing with 9.4s for 100 dmg... Same result.
The difference is: Any effect your spell has: debuff / CC / self-buff etc, will be applied 6% more. because you will be casting 6% more that / those spell.
IN ADDITION the 6% cooldown reduction works on both single target and aoe spells, making cooldown reduction the obvious answer.
I wont elaborate anymore, I think this proves my point quite nicely into proving that for an aoe spell you will get the same damage output, but extra control self-buff and debuff, thus actually increasing your overall dps.
Same for single target where for instance, your ray of enfeeblement will be casted more allowing you to debuff more and hit more.
Point made I think,
-Jawarisin
PS: I suggest you check out the renegade build I made, it might enlighten you a little. If you really want to wait, I will probably make a Thaum build whenever I'm done with the renegade (which is going to be a while since it's a comprehensive one).
I wont be extensive, I will just say that if you can do your job, AND MORE, you will progress way quicker. I'm running 4 man CN easily without any problem or exploit because everybody does their job correctly. and you are SUPPOSED to top the damage chart since you're aoe...
the rogue is supposed to take down the annoying big guys.
Here for the build+guide
(Emphasis mine.)
That's not how recharge bonuses work.
A 6% recharge bonus does allow, in principle, 6% more uses of the power. It does not cut the cooldown time of the power by 6%. That's a subtle but important difference.
The other problem, of course, is that recharge doesn't stack terribly well. Realistically, your comparison wouldn't feature otherwise naked and bonus-bereft characters; it would feature characters with fairly well fleshed out stats across the board. The 6% bonus to AoE damage from Wizard's Wrath (from all feats in fact, per my testing) is multiplicative; that is, it's always nets you 6% in damage on the applicable powers, regardless of any other bonuses you might have when you buy the feat.
Granted, Wizard's Wrath only works on a handful of powers. Granted, it isn't a 6% damage bonus to all AoEs, by any reasonable third-party definition of the term, "AoE," but at least it's clear what you get: 6% more damage on a small selection of (important) powers, no matter what your gear score, no matter what class features you're using, no matter what other feats you've selected.
If it seems like I'm repeating myself here, I apologize. But I want to hammer that point home: there's a huge difference between an additively stacking 6% bonus over the default condition, and an unconditional 6% net bonus.
Anyway, a mature CW build is gonna have somewhere around 22% in recharge bonus just from Recovery (@ around 3,000 points). Toss in a fair amount from INT; let's be conservative: we'll call it 10% in recharge from 20 total INT. Finally, toss in an incidental amount of WIS (say, 4% from 14 total WIS), and you're up to ~36%.
With 36% in recharge bonuses, our 10-second-cooldown power becomes a 10 / (1 + 0.36) = 7.35s power.
Add 6% to that, and our 10-second-cooldown power becomes a 10 / (1 + 0.42) = 7.04s power.
Or if you want to take the more charitable, Cryptic-designed view, that 6% bonus allows us to use the power (1.42 / 1.36) - 1 = 4.4% more often. In other words, there's a diminished net benefit for stacking recharge. Notice that's slightly different from a diminished return. In principle, recharge bonuses give a linear benefit*, but when we're discussing two different particular build or gear choices, what's important is to understand how much we net for each alternative.
(* - There are practical caveats to the linear-benefit theory. The most obvious is that your rate of power usage is limited by the speed at which the powers activate. So if you have a power with, say, a 3-second activation time, there's a literally diminished return on recharge bonuses as your cooldown approaches 3s.)
4.4% cooldown reduction would still be better in any cases. but it's actually not 6% if what's left, it's an additionnal 6%. so it's 6% over the already 36%. If you wanted the net, it would actually end up bigger.
and cooldown reduction does benefit from any damage buff etc you might have on since you cast it 4.4% more times. Point is, Fight On is a must have compared to an AOE skill that barely benefit any skills.
I'm lazy and my game of LoL is starting, so I won't do the math for you, but think about it again.
-Jawarisin
Here for the build+guide
Er, what? You start with a power that you can use 36% more often than you would in the default condition (a 136% power-activation rate). That's what 36% recharge reduction means.
Then you add 6%, which allows you to use the power 42% more often than you would be able to use it in the default condition (142% power-activation rate). 1.42 / 1.36 = 1.044, or a 4.4% net increase. That's your net gain for the 6 extra percentage points in recharge, absent any analysis of the cast-time bottleneck.
The net benefit of adding two sums together always goes down as the amount of the initial sum rises. Someone who makes $10,000 per year would net 200% of his annual salary if you gave him a $20,000 raise, whereas a $20,000 raise would only represent a 20% net increase for someone already making $100,000 per year. You appear to be claiming the opposite, which is obviously wrong, and then you act as if the evidence for your claim is self-evident.
And yes, the cooldown reduction benefits any damage buffs you have, but the reverse is also true, and thus your point is irrelevant. My only point is that multiplicative damage bonuses scale better than do linear recharge bonuses. Whether Fight On or Wizard's Wrath is a superior feat choice is a wholly different question, and I think the answer largely depends on your build's focus (single-target or AoE, PvP or PvE). I just thought I'd step in and correct your math error.
It's only a 4.4% gain if you compare it to 136, but if you look at what it gives.
Now, ok so wizard would have 4.4% more recharge rate compared to him, but that also means that any other proccing effect on powers will proc 4.4% more often, debuff one RoE will debuff 4.4% more often. With the number of proccing things like that, and the ridicoulously small amount of powers which benefit from aoe damage in a meaningfull fashion. Even if it was 2%, the recharge rate would be better.
As you are most likely just putting the adds in a corner and controlling them, 4.4% more control is better also.
Anyway you turn the math around, the recharge rate is still superior.
-Jawarisin
PS: I think you just didn't understand what i meant. My point was for him to reach what i had in recharge rate, it would take him 6%. Thanks for clearing it up though.
Here for the build+guide
It's okay, I didn't take that as mean or nasty, and I realise I have a lot to learn about Control Wizards, my two level 60's being a Trickster Rogue, and Great Weapon Fighter. I don't mind you saying I need to fix things, that is how you learn, you take advice from other people that may be different then your own and add it to knowledge you already have, in the end hopefully making you better for it.
I only said in my post positive criticism is welcome because on a lot of forums people are so quick to say, "you suck", "you're useless", "learn 2 play" but then they give you no advice to help you get better, they say how bad you are just to make themselves feel superior.
I would like to say, this discussion has gotten heated, but I am glad to say people are using facts and debating points and not just flaming each other, and so in that respect I have found it useful. Honestly I have found this community to be much better then a lot of those out there.
And I would like to thank everyone that posted, because the more information the better, and thank you for your supporting arguments.
Some people who say that they are top CWs or are farming CN under 30min, are really doing a disservice to newer or less experienced players when they make it seem that the success of a CW hinders on specific feats or gear. Threads have went on and on debating INT vs WIS vs CHA, HV vs SW, Thauma vs Reneg vs Oppress, and this feat over this feat. Lots of CWs are just frustrated with their progression because they follow someone's build/spec/guide thinking if they just do what it says exactly, all their problems will be solved. The truth is, clearing any T2 has less to do with spec/gear and more to do with skill and experience, and we all know this.
I am not saying players shouldn't advise on feats, or share a wall of theocrafting. I personally enjoy it. But lets not exaggerate the effectiveness of 3 points of heroic feats, and have some poor lad think about wasting 100k AD to respec every time they read a new post.
I in fact do find myself short on cooldown quite often. It's not by much, but my spells dont have a perfect rotation where I have no space for a magic missile. And the shield glitch is only if there's a LOT of adds. Or half cooldown if there's a bunch. It's not reliable most of the time.
I like to be optimal, but I can definitely understand that there's a minor difference and that skills is more important. However, at evenly matched skills, that difference might be the winning difference.
Here for the build+guide
And Fight On don't give 6% DPS increase, just take a calculator, fing formulas and count. According to my own rough calculations, Fight On 3 points gives you about 4% damage increase on static AoE unlimited time fight. WW gives you 5.5% damage increase, cause most of your standart and most powerfull powers counts as AoE (steal time, shield, chilling cloud). And as I mentioned before, in Malabog Fight On will be more important, if cryptic won't add tons of minions to last boss.
Btw, your guide is not to be the ultimate truth. And it won't enlight me anymore. But you still need some enlightment.
Well said. Should be stickied at the top of almost every mechanical discussion.
Right. My only point is to emphasize the difference in how the two bonuses scale. The net benefit for recharge bonuses goes down as your Recharge increases. The net benefit for feat-based damage bonuses is always the listed value, per my testing.
None of the above means that your main argument is wrong; Wizard's Wrath isn't necessarily better than Fight On. But if you want to make a good-faith comparison, you have to take into account the other Recharge bonuses available, because no level 60 Wizard is going to have 0% recharge, absent the feat. On the contrary, Wizards are practically handed ~40% in recharge bonuses just from base stats and decent gear.
(My 36% number was a pointedly conservative estimate, based on unrealistically low stats. Some Wizards do ignore WIS, but they usually have more than 20 INT.)
On the other hand, a PvP Wizard will get very little mileage out of Wizard's Wrath, because the feat doesn't apply to powers that PvP Wizards typically use very often. I don't dispute that at all. Still, a PvE Wizard will arguably get his money's worth from Wizard's Wrath just on Shield pulse, alone. It's therefore fair to say that Fight On is a better all-purpose feat, because it gives you something almost irrespective of the context. It's not obvious to me that Fight On is unambiguously superior for all builds, though.
In any case, and as copticone ably points out, we're discussing a pretty minor choice here.
+1 to that. Wish there was a thumb up option.
Why don't you run calculation for thaum then renegade. the cooldown reduction on a 10 minute basis or something, providing the increase in debuff from CoI and RoE if you're a thaum or RoE and Nightmare Wizardry. As well as allowing more spells to be casted during that 5% always-crit.
In the end, the buff and debuff will make it better. You could make a diagram too if you want, I'd be interested in seeing it (although as previously mentionned I'm too lazy to do it myself).
No, my guide is not the ultimate truth, but I have more experience than most. Although, more than just a spell build, it's a guide on how-to pvp effectively and get good scores even when your team fails badly. I am far from done with it, so I would ask you not to point out to sections which are not yet completed.
Here for the build+guide
Ive tried both and the aoe damage doesnt change much at all, clearing speed. Just pick whichever you want to do more, cast encounters 6% faster or have some aoe spells do 6% more damage.
As always i advise what you think is better not do what other peoplel tell you. If you notice alot of builds take reaper's touch. But i personally think its a waste of 5 points. Take your own time when choosing feats and reading them.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".