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Theorycraft: GWF daily breakdown
wondras
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
Introduction
What is goal of this thread? There are many misleading or inacurate information about GWF daily effectivnes - there Crescendo people, there are Savage Advance people and there are Slam people and everyone claims his favourite daily is the best so lets have a look at real numbers. Please excuse my grammar mistakes - english isnt my native language.
(yes, I m "Slam person" now when i have proof
)
This theorycraft is about maximalizing your avarage damage, I understand "I had one time sooooooooo big crit!" is nice but is has nothing to do with avarage performace of your skills
Conditions
As for every experiment we need to note starting conditions:
- all damage was test on Target Dummy
- my GS was 10,581 (had to switch main hand for white t1 PvP - no enchantments)
- no pets were summoned
- never had Combat Advantage
- no buffs, no debuffs
- Sentinel build
- if not stated otherwise, damage dealt was non-crits
- length of animation was measured by time between pressing the button and ability to move again
- crit chance was 35.8% and crit severity 90%
- all used damage numbers are as rank 3 skill
I can add more info on demand
Data
These are raw data before taking in account number of targets, crit chance, and crit severity.
Avalanche of Steel
Crescendo
Savage Advance
Slam
Spinning Strike**
Rank
1
3
1
3
2
Lenght (s)
5.3
3.3
2.3
1.1
6.7
Damage
3744 (4492*)
8022
6420(7704*)
9352
5521(6023*)
*after taking rank in account
** because it was impossible to get non-crit spinning strike, the damage was taken by assebling two casts non-crit ticks (dont worry, it is right number of ticks for one cast in there)
Accuracy
Those numbers arent 100% accurate, please note there are human relfexes and the dailies were run only once so the damage may differ up to 8.7% (damage spread from tooltip avarage).
Math
To measure efficiency, lets compare DPS of dailies:
Critital damage boost
I have 35.8% crit chance * 90% severity = 1.3222 avarage DPS boost from crits
AoE handicap and maximum effect
Because AoE can strike multiple targets, lets set most often number of target to three - its not big number nor small. To get maximum effect you must strike all target at target cap - i m not sure how many targets are cap for GWF dailies i would need more info on this, however if I m not mistaken CW big daily spell got cap 20 target so lets count 20 targets cap as well.
Avalanche of Steel
4492 damage / 5.3 seconds = 848 DPS non crit
847.5 * 1.3222 = 1 121 DPS with crit
1121 * 3 = 3 363 DPS with handicap
1121 * 20 = 22 420 DPS at full potential
Crescendo
8022 damage / 3.3 seconds = 2 431 DPS non crit
2431 * 1.3222 = 3 214 DPS with crit
Savage Advance
7704 / 2.3 = 3 350 DPS non crit
3350 * 1.3222 = 4 430 DPS with crit
Slam
9352 / 1.1 = 8501 DPS non crit
doesnt seems to crit
8501 * 3 = 25 503 DPS with handicap
8501 * 20 = 170 020 DPS at full potential (!!! yes, thats 170 THOUSAND DPS i ran the test for slam twice bc of this)
Spinning Strike
6023 / 6.7 = 899 DPS non crit
899 * 1.3222 = 1 189 DPS with crit
1189 * 3 = 3 567 DPS with handicap
1129 * 20 = 22 580 DPS at full potential
Breakdown
Assuming your target(s) didnt die while in animation, lets set the least dps as 100% and compare single target damage by time locked in animation:
100% Avalanche of Steel (1 121 DPS)
106% Spinning Strike (1 189)
287% Crescendo (3 214 DPS)
395% Savage Advance (4 430 DPS)
758% Slam (8501 DPS)
Fatcs
Feedback
I would be happy to hear from you any valuable feedback but please stay constructive - dont flame it is wrong everybody does mistakes, especially in math
Write down what and why is wrong and how to fix it.
Also i would happily expand this post should you find any new interesting fats.
Changelog
-fixed breakdown listing and fact to count with crit numbers
-added shout part to Savage Advance, credit goes to flamer on next page ^^
What is goal of this thread? There are many misleading or inacurate information about GWF daily effectivnes - there Crescendo people, there are Savage Advance people and there are Slam people and everyone claims his favourite daily is the best so lets have a look at real numbers. Please excuse my grammar mistakes - english isnt my native language.
(yes, I m "Slam person" now when i have proof
)This theorycraft is about maximalizing your avarage damage, I understand "I had one time sooooooooo big crit!" is nice but is has nothing to do with avarage performace of your skills
Conditions
As for every experiment we need to note starting conditions:
- all damage was test on Target Dummy
- my GS was 10,581 (had to switch main hand for white t1 PvP - no enchantments)
- no pets were summoned
- never had Combat Advantage
- no buffs, no debuffs
- Sentinel build
- if not stated otherwise, damage dealt was non-crits
- length of animation was measured by time between pressing the button and ability to move again
- crit chance was 35.8% and crit severity 90%
- all used damage numbers are as rank 3 skill
I can add more info on demand
Data
These are raw data before taking in account number of targets, crit chance, and crit severity.
Avalanche of Steel
Crescendo
Savage Advance
Slam
Spinning Strike**
Rank
1
3
1
3
2
Lenght (s)
5.3
3.3
2.3
1.1
6.7
Damage
3744 (4492*)
8022
6420(7704*)
9352
5521(6023*)
*after taking rank in account
** because it was impossible to get non-crit spinning strike, the damage was taken by assebling two casts non-crit ticks (dont worry, it is right number of ticks for one cast in there)
Accuracy
Those numbers arent 100% accurate, please note there are human relfexes and the dailies were run only once so the damage may differ up to 8.7% (damage spread from tooltip avarage).
Math
To measure efficiency, lets compare DPS of dailies:
Critital damage boost
I have 35.8% crit chance * 90% severity = 1.3222 avarage DPS boost from crits
AoE handicap and maximum effect
Because AoE can strike multiple targets, lets set most often number of target to three - its not big number nor small. To get maximum effect you must strike all target at target cap - i m not sure how many targets are cap for GWF dailies i would need more info on this, however if I m not mistaken CW big daily spell got cap 20 target so lets count 20 targets cap as well.
Avalanche of Steel
4492 damage / 5.3 seconds = 848 DPS non crit
847.5 * 1.3222 = 1 121 DPS with crit
1121 * 3 = 3 363 DPS with handicap
1121 * 20 = 22 420 DPS at full potential
Crescendo
8022 damage / 3.3 seconds = 2 431 DPS non crit
2431 * 1.3222 = 3 214 DPS with crit
Savage Advance
7704 / 2.3 = 3 350 DPS non crit
3350 * 1.3222 = 4 430 DPS with crit
Slam
9352 / 1.1 = 8501 DPS non crit
doesnt seems to crit
8501 * 3 = 25 503 DPS with handicap
8501 * 20 = 170 020 DPS at full potential (!!! yes, thats 170 THOUSAND DPS i ran the test for slam twice bc of this)
Spinning Strike
6023 / 6.7 = 899 DPS non crit
899 * 1.3222 = 1 189 DPS with crit
1189 * 3 = 3 567 DPS with handicap
1129 * 20 = 22 580 DPS at full potential
Breakdown
Assuming your target(s) didnt die while in animation, lets set the least dps as 100% and compare single target damage by time locked in animation:
100% Avalanche of Steel (1 121 DPS)
106% Spinning Strike (1 189)
287% Crescendo (3 214 DPS)
395% Savage Advance (4 430 DPS)
758% Slam (8501 DPS)
Fatcs
- Avalanche of Steel and Spinning Strike does roughly same DPS and are overal worst dailies
- Savage Advance has much better overal DPS then Crescendo if you were already in melee range and hit target with both shout and main damage
- Slam got 8 times better DPS and twice better total damage then any other AoE daily do
- Slam does roughly 10% less total damage then Crescendo or Savage Advance do even though it does not crit
- With Slam you can reach 100-200k damage PER SECOND in animation
Feedback
I would be happy to hear from you any valuable feedback but please stay constructive - dont flame it is wrong everybody does mistakes, especially in math
Write down what and why is wrong and how to fix it.Also i would happily expand this post should you find any new interesting fats.
Changelog
-fixed breakdown listing and fact to count with crit numbers
-added shout part to Savage Advance, credit goes to flamer on next page ^^
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
Crescendo is single target. Also yes it is the best single target daily.
Savage advance knocks back enemies in front of you, knocks the main target far off, knocks it prone, charges and does decent damage.
Slam is great at damaging up to 5 mobs in the fact that for 12 seconds you get extra dps while you use other skills and are not locked in an animation.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Quick math. I hit 10k-12k avalanche. Unlimited targets.
10 mobs? I just did 100k-120k damage and knocked them prone. Questions?
If you hit roughly 50% more damage then i did on dummy, you would have 150k damage from slam + slow + 7 extra seconds for other skills... lets say you hit 3 targets with IBS +40k and few times WMS + 20k = around 200k damage with slam in same window. Twice as much.
ps. When I use Slam throughout the dungeon I'm usually doing the most damage in the team.
Crescendo can out-dps slam on a single target only when it's hits make "critical strikes", since slam cannot critical, while crescendo does critical, and even then, the difference is small. try it and see for yourself on a single target.
I only use crescendo over slam if I wanted to make a pvp enemy prone, or if it was a finishing kill, or if I didn't want to pull AOE agro for whatever reason.
The problem is that "battle awareness" feat also seems to be bugged. I don't know if u have noticed this or not guys. at 5 points, "battle awareness" feat is supposed to increase ur power by 25% for the duration of slam. in truth, it only incrases ur power by 25% for just 6 seconds.... and slam infact lasts for 12 seconds.
try it and see for yourselves... the tootip is misleading. I don't know if this is intentional by the developers, or if it is yet another bugged/Broken GWf feat.
Anybody noticed this "battle awareness" bug? that's the reason why I had to drop this feat...
Slam takes 12 seconds for full damage.
Crescendo takes 3.
Avalanche takes 5.
Each one has strengths and weaknesses that depend on the battle.
No idea how you came up with these numbers. This is nowhere near 50% accurate let alone 100%
There are two ways to use Savage Advance, one of which takes one second to use and triggers a min of 2x Knock damage + a Savage Advance damage which with my average gear set up never does less than 10k Damage on NORMAL hits.
Second, it makes absolutely no sense to consider the Damage Per Second of each daily since no one just uses a Daily and just stands still. The animation time "saved" and using At-Wills or other Encounters during that time saved should be taken into account.
Wrong. Slam does the same damage as Savage Advance on a normal hit. Savage Advance will do a ton more on a crit.
LOL...Are you using the same Unit of Time that the rest of us do?
Next time make sure you have 3 ranks in every Power when you want to test things before you waste so much time starting a thread with lots of misinformation, which is funny since the whole point of this was to clarify misinformation. Also you do not understand Crit Severity. If you have 90% crit severity, it means you do 1.90*damage of normal hits, making dailies that can crit much stronger than you assumed.
Math
To measure efficiency, lets compare DPS of dailies:
Critital damage boost
I have 35.8% crit chance * 90% severity = 1.3222 damage increase from crits
That is not a true statement. I realize English is not your first language but you are trying to give an average DPS.
The '1.322 damage increase from crits' should probably read 'an average increase of DPS.'
Then again...I'm not the brightest bulb when it comes to math.
+1 /10chars
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You can does that damage in your gear, the damage number is irrelevant, what matters is comparing to other powers. If you would do twice as much damage as I did with testing gear, every other daily would do twice as much damage aswell. If you know however a way how to glitch for double damage the tooltip states and skill does, feel free to shar with us
Why it doesnt make sence, the time you did not spend in animation you can perform other actions, you might mistook DAMAGE and DPS, to make sure you understood it is "Damage Per Second" and make perfect sence to make measure it with damage and seconds.
You got point here, there is mistake in my math on avarage SA will do 1.3222x more damage then i stated I m going to fix it in my post - should be 10% less, thanks.
I am afraid I do, should you have trouble understanding what second it, please visit this link
Should you have read the post, you might noticed "*" near damage numbers in table, those are numbers for rank 3 and all math is with these. Give me right forume for crit and severity should you not believe
True, twas a bit misunderstanding - there should be the word avarage, fixing that.
And of course every daily can have special situation when its the best, however it wouldnt be possible to do math with "avarage utility".
Please STOP IT. You're making yourself look bad with every reply. I removed ALL my gear except for main-hand, so you dont use that "gear" logic.
[Combat (Self)] Your Knock deals 2891 (2479) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Knock deals 3078 (2640) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Savage Advance deals 15042 (12340) Physical to Target Dummy.
All these 3 hits are the total of Savage Advance, NOT JUST the line that says Savage Advance. So the total above is 21,000 damage. Yes, and that's being naked with only a weapon.
There is no glitch, there is no bug.
Also the 2.3 second animation is COMPLETELY wrong. First of all, if you use Savage Advance on a CC immune target, then it's barely over 1sec. The distance between you and a normal mob also determine the animation time. There are two ways Savage Advance works, one takes much less animation than the other. Read the tooltip.
Umm...there is definitely a language barrier here and I am not trying to make fun of that or anything. But it is obvious you do not get what I am saying. For example, a better test would be to take a 10second window. Start the 10sec counter, you would use slam + however many WMS rounds you can do until the 10sec are up. Then do the same thing with other dailies. Using a parse, add up all the damage of the dailies + the At-will, then divide by 10sec. That way you get a better picture of which Daily contributes more dps (Damage Per Second). All this should be done using Single Target. Then do the same test over and over adding +1 target so you can see where each daily benefits the most with x number of targets.
Ok please show us a 10sec clip where you used Slam and managed 200k DAMAGE PER SECOND. So at the end of the Parse you should be able to show us 2mil damage in 10sec. Good luck with that.
Well it should then be obvious to you that this is a completely INACCURATE way of doing a test. Do yourself a favor and ask a moderator to remove this thread. It is really going to bring you a bad rep.
I dont care what it does in special cases, if you want mesure avarage state you cant count you once crited for 25k on CC immune target. You are not much familiar with statistics, are you?
Use logic - if you in 10 second window spend 3 seconds in animation, there are 7 seconds left for other DPS and the DPS you make by at-wills and encounters is not related to which daily you have used.(assuming you didnt have it feated) So you have daily damage + 7 seconds damage. If you increase the time window to infinity and take out the daily, you will get exactly same numbers as i posted first. The total time you do other DPS is irrelevant, only thing that matter is for how long you interrupted your normal DPS. Got it? DPS 10 s + 3s daily + 7s DPS etc. No matter which time window you chose, the daily will still take same time to cast and do same damage on avarage.
Simple, get 20 targets and press Slam, in 1 second you cast buff on yourself with 200k damage potencial which is turned in within 12s of the buff. You need to understand all article is about damage/animation values, there are flat numbers too but they are not so interesting for theorycrafting where is your goal to maximalize you DPS, not "one crit I dealt".
Again - stay clear and cinstructive, its nice you have "a feeling" that is inacurate but since you posted no arguments why it sounds a little stupid even to you, doesnt it? Its nice to have intuition but DPS is about math, not your guess.
The only time i ever use single target dailies is vs tough mobs. bosses, and elites. which are 9/10 times immune to CC.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Sadly on your request I recorded the animation with millisecond timestamp, run it in 10% slow motion and it really is 2.15x seconds long.
Sadly, I gave 3 free bumps to this thread. What is more sad, is that some people will see the nicely organized OP with Red and Blue colors, and even a nice looking table, and actually take it seriously. Good luck with that. I apologize for trolling your thread.