Biggest flaw in neverwinter combat

xuel · July 2013

Attacking in melee roots you in place till you are done with the attack, in ever single game i've played you can continue to move while attacking in melee. As far as casters/healers are concerned, let them move but interrupt spell they are casting.

leedskalnin · July 2013

Although my main is CW, I actually had a 36 GF before I deleted it. One of the things I disliked about that class and the TR is the drawback when attacking. As what you've said, you'd have to stay put to attack. The other thing is that every time you had a click too much and the mob dies before a swing, you'd be hitting the air. The time it took to get the weapon back for another attack was kinda long, at least for the GF.

kantazo1 · July 2013

I also don't understand why as a caster you cannot attack on the move?

rishzoth · July 2013

I believe this was addressed by the devs and the reason was to level the playing field for melee classes.

rustedheartz · July 2013

That's one thing I really hate about the combat system. You're locked in place till your casting is done & can't cancel it by moving when that big boss plonks a red circle on you :-/

kantazo1 · July 2013

rishzoth wrote: »

I believe this was addressed by the devs and the reason was to level the playing field for melee classes.

That could be awesome in PVP but in PVE is plain foolish.

labbb · July 2013

This makes the combat in this game feel more responsive . I like it . Plenty of other games with the attack and move , super kitting style of play . Keep this one different .

vashwix · July 2013

xuel wrote: »

in ever single game i've played you can continue to move while attacking in melee

That is very very realistic. :rolleyes:

jaymadiv · July 2013

the only flaw in NW's combat is that it doesn't exist in other, better-developed games.

bioshrike · July 2013

I just wish all powers could be cancelled mid-animation. I hate starting a long-animating power, only to see a red circle appear under me, and knowing that I can't move away in-time.

welshavenger · July 2013

I remember seeing an early vid of the gameplay and there was a CW running around a boss firing off his at will powers whilst moving. For encounters and dailies, I agree with the system as is. They're much more complex powers that require concentration to cast/use so should be used while stationary. Having said that, there should be a mechanic that if you move during the casting time, the power goes on to cooldown without being cast/used.

shydo123 · July 2013

Being rooted while in melee combat is probably the worst style of combat system available. Even though I do not play WoW anymore the ability to move and attack (unless channeling) made the game flow a lot smoother and allowed for more strategy. Other games like Aion it is worse as your opponent is always out of range, and I have yet to come across that issue in NW (probably because they are rooted in an action too). Unfortunately, it is an issue with the engine used to make the game and it won't be getting changed.

sockmunkey · July 2013

shydo123 wrote: »

Being rooted while in melee combat is probably the worst style of combat system available. Even though I do not play WoW anymore the ability to move and attack (unless channeling) made the game flow a lot smoother and allowed for more strategy. Other games like Aion it is worse as your opponent is always out of range, and I have yet to come across that issue in NW (probably because they are rooted in an action too). Unfortunately, it is an issue with the engine used to make the game and it won't be getting changed.

Its not an engine issue. As already mentioned previously. You were able to attack and move in early beta. This was changed to the current system before open beta.

sangrine · July 2013

As a CW, I frequently interrupt casting (usually "steal time") by teleporting away.
Spell is not cast and goes on cooldown. I don't recall being able to teleport away while using daily powers.

Using powers on the move reminds me of running and gunning in a first person shooter.
Not sure if I want that in Neverwinter combat.

ayroux · July 2013

shydo123 wrote: »

Being rooted while in melee combat is probably the worst style of combat system available. Even though I do not play WoW anymore the ability to move and attack (unless channeling) made the game flow a lot smoother and allowed for more strategy. Other games like Aion it is worse as your opponent is always out of range, and I have yet to come across that issue in NW (probably because they are rooted in an action too). Unfortunately, it is an issue with the engine used to make the game and it won't be getting changed.

Honestly, I started reading this and was like yeah! This is horrible, then I sat and thought about it and realized its really not...

If you think of "reality" its pretty dang hard to run around with a big 2H sword swinging it as fast as a GWF does, or a GF does... Its not that easy maintaining a solid footing while swinging... Have you ever swung a sword before? They arent necessarily light or something easy to run and swing with...

Or for a caster, magic is typically something that takes focus, not something you can do very well while gasping for breath as you run...

Now if they WERE to address this issue, which most likely wont happen, but what they SHOULD do is make a system where you CAN cast and move, but the casts take 2x-3x as long... Basically slow up the animation a TON if your moving and if you stand still it acts like it currently does...

The disadvantage to this, is most players will either forget or not like that its hard to tell exactly when an animation ends meaning you could add time to each animation and not realize it...

I played ALOT of WoW and while the fluid combat was really nice, it was also really unrealistic and made for alot of jumping around combat and trying to play super tricky to maximize the time you attack and minimize opponants attacks...

In this game, especially as melee, it is very annoying to animation the ground because you missed an encounter, but I feel like that by itself takes more skill to time right/combo right...

I feel like it takes LESS skill jumping around more efficiently and MORE skill knowing the animation timers and reach of your abilities and it also makes you think twice before using them so you KNOW they will hit... Its a less forgiving system.. and for that, I appreciate it...

While it would be nice to be able to cancel animation (I think there is some way to do it but I dont know it yet). I much rather prefer the current system. The only thing I dont like is that people just jump to counter this and start animation in the air...

So to fix that maybe they should let you move for PART of the animation... Like if an entire attack took .5 seconds... The first .15 seconds it would start, then at .16s it plants you, then at realeases you once its done... This compromises the jumping strategy that allows you to move WHILE attacking...

ayroux · July 2013

Thoguht about this some more and this is actually the exact reason I DONT do the last attack of the four attack combo of the GWF.. The first three attacks I can do in about 1 second, but the forth attack, has a small windup AND slams the ground. Now it looks cool and does more damage, but MOST of the time, the target has moved OR I need to move so I stop. That forth attack also takes almost the same amount of time it took for the first three attacks to do in the first place, so I would rather just do another 1-3...

The movement is PART of the issue, the LONG animation is the other part...

munkey81 · July 2013

Man do I agree. Excellent post.

If you could move while doing melee, it would be a whole new ball game for people. Skill most definately would be a factor in pvp. Anyone remember jousting in EQ 1?

+10

xgamemonsterx · July 2013

Being unable to move during combat was a design decision. I like it as is... it gives the attacks a sense of weight and power behind them. If you can't move away from attacks, I suggest you don't button mash and lock yourself in place for too long a time.

slayorian · July 2013

Having to choose when to attack or move involves more skill and strategy. Considering that, it's better the way it is. Melee classes have attacks and abilities to close the gap very quickly. You can also slow down or knock down your target. If you feel you can't keep up with your target, use the abilities I just mentioned. Both fighters have them.

You already move forward a little bit with each swing, which is perfectly fine for tracking small movements. Anything else would turn pvp into a tardfest of people running around at random with weapons and spells flying all over the place. No thanks, I much prefer strategy to that potential cluster.

Edit: Having to choose between long animated more powerful spells/attacks vs. faster ones is also another layer of strategy. That one super hit is not always the way to win.

ayroux · July 2013

slayorian wrote: »

Having to choose when to attack or move involves more skill and strategy. Considering that, it's better the way it is. Melee classes have attacks and abilities to close the gap very quickly. You can also slow down or knock down your target. If you feel you can't keep up with your target, use the abilities I just mentioned. Both fighters have them.

You already move forward a little bit with each swing, which is perfectly fine for tracking small movements. Anything else would turn pvp into a tardfest of people running around at random with weapons and spells flying all over the place. No thanks, I much prefer strategy to that potential cluster.

Edit: Having to choose between long animated more powerful spells/attacks vs. faster ones is also another layer of strategy. That one super hit is not always the way to win.

Honestly this is very very true and why I posted about typically doing only the first three attacks from the GWF combo string rather then adding the forth... Also something like IBS for GWFs with a HUGE windup takes positioning.

The ONLY thing I dislike is that with a little bit of lag, its can become very hard to hit someone since they are in range on your screen but from the serverside, they are just out of range... The other thing is that hitting a running target, well there is nothing that really "slows" them that is worth using... I know GWFs have an ability to do this, but its really lack luster in comparison to the other encounters... If they buffed the damage it could be useful...

that is the only thing that feels lacking in my opinion... But considering the fact that currently the three melee classes are the most OP (GWF/TR/GF) Its hard to complain about that... If the game was more balanced towards CWs being OP (which is like MOST mmos out there... Casters are typically very strong in PVP) Then it would probably need to be addressed...

jaymadiv · July 2013

shydo123 wrote: »

Being rooted while in melee combat is probably the worst style of combat system available. Even though I do not play WoW anymore the ability to move and attack (unless channeling) made the game flow a lot smoother and allowed for more strategy. Other games like Aion it is worse as your opponent is always out of range, and I have yet to come across that issue in NW (probably because they are rooted in an action too). Unfortunately, it is an issue with the engine used to make the game and it won't be getting changed.

I disagree.

in WoW, the only "strategy" that being able to attack while moving produced was people bunny-hopping through each other while their auto-attack cycled.

Guild Wars 2 is a little better in that regard where moving actually makes a difference and attacks can really be dodged.

but overall, I prefer NW's combat, despite being locked in place while attacking. having to aim your attacks makes all the difference.

axer128 · July 2013

Definitely not a flaw. a very conscious intended design decision. You can hear the lead developer explain that in a few interviews.

The the other DnD mmo - the max geared/skilled game is pretty much complete broken due to the fact you can run at insane speeds while attacking. Rangers and Casters solo max-difficulty RAIDS intended to be challenging for 12 players it's so broken.

And it's not that the devs failed on the challenge aspect - the bosses 1 shot non tanks, the toss 6 bosses and 50+ enemies at us at once..

It's that the game engine itself and the fact players can move so fast while attacking 100% PREVENTS the developers from making any actual meaningfully challenging combat that cant be cheese by kiting through it.

Very glad you can't kite and attack in this game, DDO was ruined by that. (More so later on due to further increasing run speeds and overall ranged damage output).

daswooly · July 2013

Definitely not a flaw. a very conscious intended design decision. You can hear the lead developer explain that in a few interviews.

I hear this but then also hear that animation canceling isn't an exploit? How can these things not be mutually exclusive?

reagenlionel1 · July 2013

I like the paused animation. It makes kiting more difficult and keeps things on a even playing ground. Otherwise, a rogue can stab on your *** the whole walk as you're getting away from him. Same for a GWF.

This leaves openings to distance yourself from them or close distance.

In PVE, its not really an issue either. Unless you're trying to kite, which you can do, but not up to ridiculous levels. For you to successfully kite, you have to use stamina, which is a finite source. And cannot be done in long periods.

Its one of the things I liked about the combat in this game. I dont view it as a flaw not one bit.

maggalberry · July 2013

I really enjoy the fact that you can't move and attack. It makes so much sense. The combat in this game is, in my eyes, one of the best I've ever had.

ayroux · July 2013

maggalberry wrote: »

I really enjoy the fact that you can't move and attack. It makes so much sense. The combat in this game is, in my eyes, one of the best I've ever had.

Agree 100%. The fluid combat is really what keeps me around in this game. So many other games have HORRIBLE combat... Now if they could just take the CONTENT of other games and match it with the COMBAT of NW... That would be a winner and MAYBE (do I dare say it?!?!) a "WoW Killer"...

Although inorder for that youd probably need world pvp (maybe lvl 60 world pvp zones?) and GOOD 5 man dungeons without all the exploits and broken mechanics AND more than 2 (5 man) pvp maps...

But the combat is very solid and I do feel that coming out ontop is a mixture of "rock paper scissors" combined with your gear combined with skill...

Maybe about a 1/3rd on each of those aspects... A player with good skill and good class makeup can beat out an overgeared player... a player whose over geared and a rock to someones scissors will beat out skill.... and a person whose geared AND skilled... well thats a tough person to beat... regardless of the class makeup...

yerune · July 2013

I'm not sure, but the way I understood it is because of the lag. I could be happily smashing someone in the face, only that guy has dodged away already while my client hasn't picked up on it yet. It happens a lot already, dodging attacks after I executed them.

maggalberry · July 2013

ayroux wrote: »

Agree 100%. The fluid combat is really what keeps me around in this game. So many other games have HORRIBLE combat... Now if they could just take the CONTENT of other games and match it with the COMBAT of NW... That would be a winner and MAYBE (do I dare say it?!?!) a "WoW Killer"...

Although inorder for that youd probably need world pvp (maybe lvl 60 world pvp zones?) and GOOD 5 man dungeons without all the exploits and broken mechanics AND more than 2 (5 man) pvp maps...

But the combat is very solid and I do feel that coming out ontop is a mixture of "rock paper scissors" combined with your gear combined with skill...

Maybe about a 1/3rd on each of those aspects... A player with good skill and good class makeup can beat out an overgeared player... a player whose over geared and a rock to someones scissors will beat out skill.... and a person whose geared AND skilled... well thats a tough person to beat... regardless of the class makeup...

I agree, but you also have to take into account that the game is still very new. WoW didn't have much content when the game was first released, either. It was also chalk full of bugs. We're so spoiled with how much content WoW and some other old games have that we forget initial releases don't net very much content.

pw3cka · August 2013

I played the game last year in August on Gamescom at Cologne, and I believe that no casting, figthing was grounding you.

The game felt just awesome! What was my surprise when I downloaded the game, created wizzard and bam, rooted to ground

I don't know why they did that, CW's would be really OP, and if they would leave it for meal classes, casters would complain. So they just maybe grounded everybody

Biggest flaw in neverwinter combat

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